Right back at you ... Hook up sites are sites with some sex workers. Seeking Arrangement is basically a prostitution site for women who don't want to feel like prostitutes.
I'm having a hard time seeing too many problems with this post. Maybe the invocation of Epstein isn't helpful, and maybe it's Greenwald-adjacent enough to trigger certain responses, but ... well, if the left is going to be in favor of "empowering sex workers," which judging by recent ACLU campaigns, and certain British University's publications of "Student Sex Worker Toolkits, parts of the left are, in fact, okay with, then we're going to have to get used to creepy dudes paying for/having sex with 18 year olds, so long as 18 year olds re considered full-fledged adults. Who knows, maybe some day we'll raise the age of commercial consent to 25, but we haven't done that yet. And Celito's last paragraph . . . I can't see any reason for controversy there, either. If Gaetz broke laws, then he should be punished. If he didn't break laws but just behaved in a grotesque manner... well, there's not a lot we can do about that so long as he keeps winning elections.
I agree many of the sites are in fact venues for prostitutes to find clients. But some of the arrangements do not technically meet the definitions. In the last year or two I recall a young girl was murdered by her sugar daddy and buried in the back yard. It was quite an interesting window into a relatively seedy world. Of course most of the customers are not a US Congressman or Billionaire but some mediocre rich guy or even not that rich guy. Now of course many of these relationships are prostitution adjacent, but the defence will be that it's an ongoing relationship with gifts and largesse rather than straight up payment for sex. Which is of course what Gaetz is trying to suggest. But Gaetz's payments don't fit well with that category.
But isn't the point that we want to stop criminalising sex workers who are often young, exploited by pimps and johns, subject to violence, and frequently ensnared via trafficking and drugs? That doesn't mean we want to legalise predators like Gaetz who prey on very young girls The point remains that hiring hookers in Florida is illegal. Hiring a girl under 18 in Florida is illegal Trafficking a girl across state lines for prostitution is a felony That's my beef with the Glemm argument that it's all between consenting adults and everyone who complains is a pearl clutching fuddy duddy This isn't victimless - most of the time the girls are the victims.
Agree with both paragrahs. But has the main claim in the second paragraph been established yet? AND EDIT: I'm not going to be surprised if/when it's established, but I'm leaving room to also not surprised if the drift of early media reports prove to be less than 100% conclusive.
Cannot prove what the payments were for? The "Memo" line stated the money was for "tuition" and "school." Case closed.
Yeah - that stuff was really dumb, though I am sure he thought it was clever Especially stupid is if he is going to claim it was refunds for expenses or whatever - why does he not pay it direct to the girl? The fact that the payments are through Greenfield, who is charged with sex trafficking let's not forget, is a pretty big clue. Maybe the only straw Gaetz can clutch at is that Greenfield didn't appear to skim money as the pimp? But again - why do the payments go through him? And why was he offering this 'service'?
obviously! I perceive sexuality as a scale from 1 to 10, rather than an on/off switch. I dated a girl who was a bit attracted to women, but mostly attracted to men. So she was, say, a 3 on the men-to-women scale. This guy might also be a 3; mostly attracted to men, happier with men, but with some attraction to women. If he's a football player, then he was in an environment that would VERY VERY strongly encourage him to deny his attraction to men. If he is in one of many religious faiths, the same thing. So maybe he had to become older and wiser and more experienced to find his best path to happiness.
I’m glad someone else decided to volunteer to take the first bullet on this one. I’ll only add that I found it to be a bit amusing that a bunch of dudes (assumption on my part) had universally decided that the women here just had have been taken advantage of rather than being empowered women that actually like having sex with different men and figured they might as well get paid for it. There are a lot of women like that...and they’d probably be offended by a bunch of well meaning guys insisting that they’re being exploited. These apps and sites actually make that “job” safer.
I had something longer in mind, but just read this: https://endsexualexploitation.org/seekingarrangement/
It is pretty well known that a lot of those types of dating websites, and even branching out into the more popular ones like Match and Chemistry, are places were "sugar babies" are looking for their sugar daddy. IOW, it is way to promote prostitution. Now, I don't have an issue with prostitution, but since it is illegal everywhere (expect Nevada) it allows exploitation of those at risk/on the margins. Now, if Gaetz and co. used that website to just to get girls, why are they then paying them via some app? If it is looking for a "sugar baby," why were there so many at various parties? Now, I'm sure there are a few who really are legit and looking for a sugar daddy. But that is not the intent of Gaetz and co.
No it does not. It made it so everything was more hidden. My cousin, whom is a state rep and former president of a non-profit helping exploited women, promoted a bill (prior to being a state rep) because it was no safer. Additionally, when I worked in Memphis, quite a few of the girls there used various websites for prostitution to make cash on the side, or even as their primary. Craigslist and Backpage were the most popular, but not the only ones. We had lots of contacts with the girls, some police officers, and many in the community, so we know that some of the girls got put on places like POF or OKCupid by their pimp. It was done that way so they didn't have to walk the street. Now, as I said above, I don't have an issue with prostitution. And I also know some of the girls are legit (and on the dating websites like POF or OKCupid most are), but those websites are used to exploit women.
I’m not arguing that this wasn’t prostitution. I don’t particularly care whether or not it is illegal...other than its affect on Gaetz going to jail.. What I’m saying is that the assumption that these women are being exploited is exactly that...an assumption...made by altruistic men posting on the internet that apparently cannot fathom the idea that a female might actually enjoy doing ecstasy and banging dudes...and enjoy getting paid for it.
In other words, there's a bit more disconnect between the "generosity" and whatever consensual adult activities might happen and less of an obvious quid pro quo that there's enough plausible deniability about what's happening. Is it sleazy? In almost all cases, yes. But it's not likely to get anyone in legal hot water.
I'm not upset at the girls. If y'all think it is cool for a bunch of rich older men to recruit young women barely at the age of consent for sex, mainly because the fetish is doing something that is morally dubious/reprehensible just because they can, then all power to you. Morality and legality are NOT synonymous. I don't care how anyone wants to justify it, what Gaetz and Co. are/were doing is/was WRONG! He should be publicly shamed, ostracized, and definitely not be a federal government representative any longer. Trying to shift the conversation to the agency of the girls involved is a complete distraction, and a ********ing worthless conversation to be had in this context. That's why I said "delete your account." You may as well be a creeper crashing funerals to hook up. Wrong place and time.
I think I specifically acknowledged some women would be doing that? But the evidence doesn't really suggest that Gaetz was about that ... unless we are to taking his unlikely explanations at face value when he is clearly lying about quite a few aspects
I mean it is better that they don't have to walk the street, but when your are 18 years old, going to drug fueled meetups with random guys off the internet for money - it is pretty clear that is no safer than in the past - which is to say pretty unsafe.
This conversation has taken a very dark turn...again. We went through this a few months ago with Epstein and Dershowitz. As for criming, if the person is underage, it is a crime. As for sliming, if there is force, coercion or involves taking advantage of the young person (regardless of minority or over the age of majority), it is slimy, whether or not it legal/illegal. If the older person is supplying illegal drugs to the young person, it is a crime, whether or not the young person "wants it." It is a crime for both of them. If the older person is providing "money" in exchange for the sex, it is a crime. Again it is a crime for both of them. As for large age differentials, of course, there are cases when large differences in ages can work. It depends on the people, the situation and the age differential. Personally, the older the parties are, the less likely the age differential matters. If a 55 wants to go out with a 30 year old, that is probably not a problem. Both are likely experienced adults, but there can still be coercive action (as in other couples). If a 38 wants to go out with an 18 year old, that is likely a problem. The 38 year old likely has way more experienced than the 18 year old. Again, there can be exceptions, but, in general, ewww. Also, as a college professor (and long time college intern host), my reaction is double ewwww! If the 38 year old is member of the House of Representative, triple ewwww! By the way, I should mention that I have spent this entire day in a seminar on Domestic Relations Law in Wisconsin, so I have been thinking about legal aspects of couples for the past 7 hours.
Thank you! Exactly! Criming! Morally Reprehensible Behavior! This isn't about whether the girl who may-or-may-not-have-been-18-yet wanted it or not.
In follow up, we can discuss changing the laws and making the suppling of drugs no longer illegal. Making the exchange of money for sex no longer illegal. Making the transportation of people across state lines for sex no longer illegal. However, in almost the entire country, all of those things are illegal. For a public official (Seminole County Tax Collector, House of Rep. member) to do it, it is illegal and ALSO a violation of their oath of action. In addition, as a lawyer, this puts Gaetz' law license in jeopardy. See RULE 4-8.4(b) MISCONDUCT A lawyer shall not: (b) commit a criminal act that reflects adversely on the lawyer’s honesty, trustworthiness, or fitness as a lawyer in other respects; Trafficking a girl across borders? It's pretty slimy, but not necessarily a violation (hence my comment "in jeopardy").
I see what you did there. I fixed the typo. Thx Trafficking generally is interstate (or international) and not intrastate. A state could certainly promulgate their own law, and, guess what (?) Florida has one! It seems pretty broad. https://www.flcourts.org/content/download/217328/file/Human_Trafficking_Overview.pdf http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...tute&URL=0700-0799/0787/Sections/0787.06.html
Wow. Even a quick glance at those makes it completely obvious that this whole enterprise is illegal. In the 2nd link, which has numbers and letters, look at 2(a)7. And then it's pretty damning about making pornography, which it sounds like Gaetz showed to others on the Congressional Floor. Basically, Gaetz was criming out in the open and bragging about it. If there was an underage girl, that only means the charges are more serious. Even if these women were 40, transporting them across state lines and offering them cocaine and cash in a quid-pro-quo for sexual favors is a crime!