2020 MLS Playoffs Conference Semifinals

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by Scrabbleship, Nov 28, 2020.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The IRP is a problem. It has had a member representing PRO that hasn't necessarily acted consistently with what PRO leadership wants. And I've railed against it before.

    But let's not over-state the problem or link it to this phenomenon we are talking about. The IRP has overturned how many red cards in the last 5 years? Less than a handful, I believe (fact check: @ManiacalClown). And they've all been SFP or VC against an opponent, correct?

    Ref Assault is something different. The IRP isn't going to overturn a red card for physical contact between a player and referee (barring something extraordinary regarding the facts, such as the player red carded having been shoved into the official by another player, for example).

    But again, too many referees don't deal with it because that's how they've been trained or conditioned themselves. Did Penso get any issues when he dealt with it? Did Saghafi? No. The times when referees have dealt with it, PRO has backed them.

    I'm sorry, but this isn't true. There are no examples that I know of since the advent of PRO where red cards for referee assault have been downgraded or overturned. All cases where they have been given, they've been upheld. The problem is they are not given enough.

    Now, I will totally stipulate that the culture of soccer in America and the training by fire many top referees have had on high-level amateur and lower-level profssional matches has conditioned them to accept more physical contact than they should. So there's a larger systemic issue at play where if a referee has learned to "get through" that type of behavior in the amateur state championship, they probably will be inclined to do the same thing 5 years later in an MLS playoff match. But it's wrong to lay this on the doorstep of PRO.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, while we shouldn't over-state the suspension/appeals problem, we equally shouldn't under-state what I think is the real issue: survival instincts in the moment.

    Chilowicz knows exactly what happens to that match if he pulls a second red card on Nani or another Orlando player. Almost all of us have been there or in similar situations. If that match goes to 11 v 9, it's probably going to 11 v 8 or worse. Orlando's behavior was unhinged already--tossing their captain to put them down two men in a must-win playoff match where the score is 2-1... it's a nightmare for any referee.

    So there is an instict to just "get through it." I think it's human nature, honestly. The concious decision to not deal with ref assault (or to turn red cards for it into yellow cards) and blatant dissent that would prompt a 2CT isn't because of what PRO or MLS will do after with your decisions... it's about what would happen for the next 30 minutes.
     
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  3. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's fair, but a lot of that occurs because of the culture in the sport where referees get treated like this. Certainly not a new problem, but one that needs to stop being swept under the rug (regardless of the source).

    This type of behavior would have resulted in multiple ejections and multi-game suspensions had it occurred in Major League Baseball or the NBA. The culture in those sports has made it clear that contact with a game official in this context is an ejection (or at least should be, and the referee crew would have to explain why they didn't do so). So you don't see this type of behavior more than once or twice a season in those sports. When it does, it's major news (of course, media coverage of MLB and the NBA outpaces that of MLS, but my point should still stand).

    Then when amateur/grassroots players see this go unpunished, they feel like they can go out and do this to their referees on Saturday or Sunday mornings. In the ultimate worst-case scenario, we then see referees injured or worse. It snowballs.

    When I played high school football, I knew darn well that if I went nuts against a referee I would get a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty (plus my coach would have planted my butt on the bench for who knows how long - I wouldn't have treated officials like that no matter what, but the point remains that I would have been penalized if I had done so). I don't understand why soccer doesn't clamp down on this across the board. So I have no problem retracting my comments from earlier, but the frustration I feel seeing this happen stands. It needs to stop.
     
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  4. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    But that's the issue, isn't it! There's a big difference between a 15-yard penalty or an ejection + technical foul and removing a player from the field for the remainder of the game. That's why we put our head down and bear it out instead of doing the right thing, because we know we lose the game or make every remaining second worse if we give that 2nd RC.

    I'm curious if we could devise some other kind of punishment that speaks to the severity. Something that ejects the player, but maybe after a 5-10 minute period playing down a player, if they have a sub remaining they can restore their number of players on the field. I haven't thought this out, so criticize away, but I do think the overall premise of finding an alternative punishment such that it can be more consistently enforced would be useful.
     
  5. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What you are describing is the "sin bin" process that's used in a lot of English grassroots soccer (and probably other places as well).

    As far as I'm concerned, I have zero sympathy for players acting in this manner. They know - or should know - that they can leave their team playing down a player if they choose to act in this manner. It's not my problem if they are upset with the punishment as it's written in the Laws of the Game. Perhaps next time they will act in a more responsible manner.
     
  6. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    So it's the referees fault for not red carding players enough? In the MLS I just don't think that's true. @MassachusettsRef can claim that PRO would back their guy because it's happened a couple times. But these referees aren't making up how they think it'll be received if they do something PRO doesn't like but can't punish them for.

    They'll lose games if they take a stand plain and simple. If that wasn't the reality, then they would take a stand.
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bit more than a handful, but no appeal has been upheld that involved an offense against a referee (notably Alejandro Bedoya's 2CT appeal was rejected in 2018, at least one caution was for dissent).

    Here are all the upheld appeals from the past 5 years that I have been able to find. Offense code and referee in parentheses. Reds given after video review indicated with "(VAR)."

    2016:
    Tyson Wahl (DGF/Unkel)
    Conor Casey (VC/Sibiga)
    Harrison Afful (SFP/Petrescu)
    Anibal Godoy (SFP/Mariscal)
    Alberto Quintro (SFP/Mariscal)
    Roger Espinoza (VC/Guzman)
    Calum Mallace (VC/Gonzalez)

    2017:
    Leandro Gonzalez Pirez (DGF/Kelly)
    Rafael Ramos (SFP/Unkel) (Don't even get me started on this one...)
    Roman Torres (DGF/Fischer)
    Xavier Kouassi (SFP/Petrescu) (VAR)
    Jack Harrison (SFP/Saghafi)

    2018:
    Kendall Waston (VC/Elfath) (VAR)
    Mo Adams (VC/Saghafi)
    Federico Higuain (SFP/Sibiga) (VAR)
    Cristian Colman (VC/Fischer)
    Tomas Martinez (SFP/Dickerson)
    Chad Marshall (SFP/Toledo) (VAR)
    Deklan Wynne (VC/Chapman)

    2019:
    Cristian Roldan (VC/Unkel)
    Nicolas Gaitan (SFP/Dickerson)
    Antonio Delamea (DGF/Petrescu) (VAR)

    2020:
    Erik Godoy (VC/Chapman)
    Francisco Calvo (VC/Gonzales Jr)
    Nani (SFP/Touchan) (VAR)


    25 upheld appeals in the last 5 seasons.
     
  8. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For all the grief he gets for going to the back pocket, that Chad Marshall red is the only time Toledo has been successfully appealed under the current system (goes back to 2012).
     
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  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks. Way more than I thought, though good to see it down the past two years.

    At least the point on referee contact still applies.
     
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  10. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    That PRO guy on the IRP needs to be fired.
     
  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not counting the supposed appeal against the Gallese 2CT the other day (because I highly suspect the appeal was quashed by the league as opposed to reaching the panel), there have been 16 additional appeals rejected, at least that I've been able to find, and none since 2018. If I do ever find solid evidence (beyond the story from local media) that the Gallese appeal was actually heard, it will go in the reject pile, of course.
     
  12. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    You are making an assumption that it is the same person every time. When they have an appeal, what they need is 1 person from US Soccer, 1 from CSA, and 1 from PRO. They round them up on an ad hoc basis.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes. Do you have any knowledge of what happened in the offseason with the Ref Assault policy?

    So is the implication here that my claim with supporting evidence isn't worthwhile but your assertion with no corresponding evidence is?

    You're projecting a motive here. Why is it "they won't punish them" instead of "I need to get through this game and can't afford another red card so this blows up?" Which one do you think is the more acute concern? Put this exact situation into one of your matches... are you less likely to make a match 11 v 9 because of how the league will handle discipline or how the rest of the match will go?

    This is not true. There was a case this year where PRO wasn't happy with a referee who didn't address what it perceived to be Ref Assault. Fellow referees, in fact, were not happy that said referee didn't pursue Ref Assault through the proper channels.

    Also Saghafi and Penso didn't lose games for taking a stand.

    It's so easy to blame administrators and, in many cases, they deserve blame. But some referees are their own worst enemies on this topic. That's not heaping blame on Chilowicz specifically here, because of the stated circumstances. But to the larger point of dissent and ref assault occuring frequently because of stated or implicit PRO policies... it's just divorced from reality. And anyone with knowledge of PSRA-PRO discussions this past year on this topic would understand that.
     
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  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    This is really the elephant in the room. I ultimately agree: the primary reason that Chilowicz may have been reluctant to take further action was a fear of losing control of the game, or being perceived to have lost control of the game.

    But, as the others have followed on with, the reason for this “fear” is perhaps more systemic. Let’s be honest: there is a large part (and I think a majority) of refereeing culture and refereeing leadership that subscribe to the philosophy that “managing the game” and/or “keeping 22 players on the pitch” is more important than “taking correct decisions.” In this Chilowicz incident, we see a perfect example how the consequences of this philosophy/culture can be very problematic.
     
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  15. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think you're overstating the strictness and tolerance level of officials when it comes to referee abuse and assault in other professional and high profile leagues/sports in this country.

    They aren't some bastion of zero tolerance and I'd argue MLS and soccer officials, in general, do a much better job of policing and punishing abuse, dissent and assault than the NBA, NFL, college football and college basketball.

    Turn on a college football game and see the antics that the officials indulge from the coaches. It's remarkable. Have you ever seen a coach ejected in a college football game or any football game ever? The NFL, college or high school? I haven't.

    Apart from baseball (I can't comment on hockey as I know very little about hockey), none of these sports really have a culture of actually ejecting players or coaches for misconduct. Until the targeting penalties in football, an ejection in the NFL or college football occurred like once a season. The NFL didn't want to implement college football's automatic ejection for targeting because as they said "we don't want to be in the business of ejecting players."

    https://apnews.com/article/f69208ad145b4aa79c2b8137e189b0e9

    Heck it was only about a decade ago that they added in the NCAA rule book that if a coach gets two unsportsmanlike penalties (flags) in the same game that he is automatically ejected. Before that a coach, could get theoretically get as many penalties as he wants without getting tossed.

    Woody Hayes literally punched a player in a bowl game in the 1970s and didn't get ejected because the concept is just so foreign to officials and leagues. I think they just flagged him.





    The announcers are literally praising the officials for not throwing Will Muschamp out of the game.

    Basketball is better than football, but not by much. Turn on an NBA game, it's just incessant whining and complaining. Sure the referees will give a technical to a player or coach, but they rarely follow through with a second technical. It happens, but not as much as it should.

    I will say Major League Baseball is head and shoulders above every sport when it comes policing and punishing dissent and assault. Some of the ejections in Major League Baseball are just absurd and so harsh.
     
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  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's a list of NFL players ejected during the 2020 season so far. Three of the 20 ejections have been for contacting officials.Most are for helmet-to-helmet contact.

    http://www.quirkyresearch.com/2020/09/13/ejections-for-the-2020-season/

    It looks like one player received an additional suspension for contacting an official during the 2019-20 season. NBA players absolutely whine too much. Two players and one coach received fines totaling 95K for verbal and other non-physical issues with an official per https://www.spotrac.com/nba/fines-suspensions/2019/fines/#

    I have not personally attended a football game where a coach has been ejected, but I do know of a coach in my area who was ejected for two unsportsmanlike penalties in the last regular season game. He missed his team's first playoff game.
     
  17. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    25 Upheld appeals is a lot more than a handful. Certainly referees take this into account and don't give red cards because of it.
     
  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My understated sarcasm is legendary.
     
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  19. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    #44 LampLighter, Nov 30, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
    I guess that means when they get in there, they just do whatever the MLS wants them to. They're leaned on. I wonder what the stats for other leagues are for rescinded red cards.
     
  20. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Yes, aware of the sin bin, though I'm suggesting it also include an ejection, so more of a temporary player reduction. My point isn't to defend this sin bin idea, but to show that the RC punishment is so severe that it may hurt referee compliance. I know I have personally not given a 2nd RC because I thought from a game management standpoint that I would lose control of the game if I did. Now, yes, that's on the players and coaches who choose to lose control, but administrators surely do not want abandoned games even if we're in the right.

    I think @MassachusettsRef's suggestion is simply to understand the tough spot in-game officials are in and that support for them looks like strong retroactive punishment from the league or DisCo. That seems like a fair suggestion.
     
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  21. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps we look to futsal for some sort of "middle ground". Futsal send-offs result in a 2-minute man advantage unless the team with an advantage scores a goal. That's 5% of the match, which would be 5 minutes (rounded up) in a 90-minute match.

    I've only been in one situation like this in my officiating career, and it was early in my career. Knowing what I know now, I would have sent players off and lived with the abandonment if we made it to that point. None of us want to send players off, but sometimes it's what we have to do. As the father of a 12-year-old who very much wants to officiate as soon as he's able, I want to see this kind of stuff out of the game. I think the only way to do it is for professional referees on TV to send players off if they cross the line and for the league to back their officials so players watching see that it will be dealt with. For me, watching Anthony Taylor send Vidal off is a more powerful moment of "we can't have this in the game" than a disciplinary committee suspending Nani for 3-5 games at the start of next season. Too much time passes until that occurs.
     
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  22. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think the NBA and college hoops are far ahead of professional soccer. It is routine in professional soccer to see multiple players surround a referee with no consequences, and grabbing or bumping the referee results in ejection. Always. Sure there is quite a bit of chirping, but it ain't more than in a professional soccer game. And there are a lot more "dissent" Ts in the NBA than there are dissent cautions in MLS--true for both players and coaches. (No way an NBA player screams "F you" in the face of an NBA ref without getting Td up--but we saw that at least twice that we could clearly lip read through the TV in the last MWC.)
    Yes, there are dissent ejections, but there are also not suspensions for those. That is also, perhaps, a psychological impact on refs with dissent send offs--it's not just today, but also the next game. Which is unusual for other sports.
     
  23. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I'm glad to hear they worked on the assault issue in the offseason. Maybe PRO needs to reinforce the message with the officials on a regular basis? But I think it's clear that soccer referees (especially at the pro level) have a history of allowing a lot more dissent than is healthy, so it might take some time to unlearn bad habits. Heck, even calling fouls in MLS is something that gets ignored by many referees in the interest of "flow".

    I'm sure that the people working at this level have lots of things they have to take into account.
     
  24. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    12/01/20 – Western Conference

    12/01/20

    Seattle Sounders vs FC Dallas
    Lumen Field (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Dave Gantar
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard


    Tonight's crew, now including the AVAR.
     
  25. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    A few borderline SPA fouls in that first half, Sibiga with a (consistent and very unsurprising) lenient approach to them.
     

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