10 shots on goal 3 dribbles completed 14 attempted crosses 6 key passes and this He had a 10/10 rating for this performance while the average rating for his teammates was only 7.08 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/615201/Live/England-Premier-League-2012-2013-West-Ham-Tottenham Gareth bale in the second half of 2012/13 is one of the 6 or 7 greatest prime players in premier league history No doubt about this in my mind Guys like hazard 14/15,Alexis Sanchez 14/15,giggs 93/94 and even KDB of the last 3 years were not on that level Gareth bale in the business half of the PL 2012/13 had a whoscored rating of around 8.1-8.3(I'll compile the ratings if necessary) Probably no one did this in the PL since C.Ronaldo and before him Thierry Henry These are the only(other) 2 to carry that level of all round threat combined with world class end product Suarez in the first 3 months after his match ban at Liverpool is also at that level But only for 3 months From January to May 2014 he is not anymore
All those players you mention had a lot more assists as Bale had in 2012-13 (twice to four times as many) with a likewise role and playing style. It's not a like for like comparison. As I replied to you previously when you said he was better than Klinsmann in the same shirt: "Maybe, but one has to consider here Bale fired a ridiculous 5 shots per game. 165 shots in total, 21 goals. I have seen some pieces wondering whether this 'shoot on sight' really helped his team, an argument can be made they were as good/better without him and without this." It's also an odd example because today's norm is that you don't shoot 98 attempts outside the box (for very good reasons players are discouraged to do this). With the Europa League added it were 111 attempts outside the box. At WhoScored he ranked fanastic (slightly better than Suarez and RvP, not miles better), but at the 'Fink Tank' ranking of that season he drops down considerably, with Suarez and Van Persie by a distance ahead. Furthermore, similar to your criticism of Suarez at Liverpool previously (2013-14 especially), he didn't do his damage against the real top teams. Those top teams knew how to limit the spaces and opportunities for the break/counter.
In the 2nd half of 2012/13 he ranks way ahead of those players Gareth bale January to may 2013 Matchday 21 Not in squad Match day 22 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...eague-2012-2013-Queens-Park-Rangers-Tottenham Rating:7.37 Matchday 23 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Manchester-United 7.56 Matchday 24 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...nd-Premier-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Norwich 7.02 Matchday 25 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...ague-2012-2013-West-Bromwich-Albion-Tottenham 8.54 Matchday 26 https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches...r-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Newcastle-United 9.82 Matchday 27 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/615201/Live/England-Premier-League-2012-2013-West-Ham-Tottenham 10 Matchday 28 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...nd-Premier-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Arsenal 7.59 Matchday 29 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...-Premier-League-2012-2013-Liverpool-Tottenham 7.69 Matchday 30 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...and-Premier-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Fulham 6.63 Matchday 31 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...nd-Premier-League-2012-2013-Swansea-Tottenham 9.14 Matchday 32 not in squad Matchday 33 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...er-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Manchester-City 8.17 Matchday 34 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...land-Premier-League-2012-2013-Wigan-Tottenham 8.08 Matchday 35 https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches...remier-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Southampton 7.44 Matchday 36 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...nd-Premier-League-2012-2013-Chelsea-Tottenham 6.92 Matchday 37 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...land-Premier-League-2012-2013-Stoke-Tottenham 7.71 Matchday 38 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...-2012-2013-Tottenham-Sunderland?sortBy=Rating 8.05 Average Whoscored rating 7.98 A bit below my estimation of 8.1-8.3 Still in the range of KDB 18/19 Better than RVP and Suarez 12/13(but not 13/14) Goal involvement during second half(only including games he played) 11 PL goals+5 wide assists out of 25 team goals :60% direct involvement https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/gareth-bale/leistungsdaten/spieler/39381/saison/2012/plus/1#/ Verdict:he carried spurs Look at the data He was ALOT more than shots out of the box 14 attempted crosses in 1 match at his best( vs west ham away) At his best he was putting up goalscoring numbers as Salah and providing crosses as ribery/di Maria
So? Over the full season it is 7.89 as shown in the link above. Not a huge uptake. Your numbers are wrong and way off... It certainly weren't 25 team goals... You forget about ten goals... We know what happened in later seasons with Spurs, and also with Liverpool after Suarez and Man United. The above mentioned FinkTank shows "carried" is likely a hyperbole. It's also backed up by the GoalImpact thing. GI stands corrected on its pessimism on Gareth Bale. But Reus stays a mystery. Not a season to improve for sure. pic.twitter.com/gUc2qgmtvs— Goalimpact (@Goalimpact) January 10, 2015 "Bale's team seems to compensate his absence rather well as the distance is only 3.9 points. They play only marginally worse without him. For some time in 2011 the performance with and without him was even equal." http://www.goalimpact.com/blog//2013/03/theo-walcott-vs-gareth-bale.html He just didn't (certainly not at the Ribery and Robben level). 1.9 accurate crosses per 90 minutes and a high 6.5 inaccurate crosses. 1.4 accurate corner kicks while 1.8 corners per 90 minutes were not close to the target. https://www.whoscored.com/Players/13812/History/Gareth-Bale Naturally, as mentioned, all those players you mentioned had twice to four times as many assists in their campaigns. This will be my last reply on this. It's in your right to make the case but in everything you're way off. Alternative facts.
25 team goals in PL games he played from January 2013 till May 2013 Gareth bale carried a disproportionate amount of the offensive burden in the 2nd half of 2012/13 He was Tottenham Your figures are wrong as we aren't even discussing the same thing For the last time In the 2nd half of the 2012/13 season he had a whoscored average of 7.98 on a woefully inept team transfermarket data(2nd half) 11 goals+5 wide assists in 1440 minutes Advanced data(2nd half) 31 key passes(1.93 key passes per 90) 27 dribbles(1.68 dribbles per 90) 116 attempted crosses(7.25 attempted crosses per 90) 27 completed crosses(1.68 crosses per 90) Robben 14/15 had 0.8 crosses per match in bundesliga And 1.5 crosses per match in bundesliga 2009/10 If you want to say arjen Robben was a better wing creator than someone like Mbappe and even c.ronaldo that's fine But he was not significantly better than Gareth bale in crossing and also less than ribery/di Maria/figo https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1220 https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10294 Lastly With Gareth bale Tottenham 12/13 finished 5th place(1 point behind arsenal) Scoring 66 goals and conceding 46 We can surely attribute some of that to bale(his offensive end product in additon to his defensive contributions-1 tackle per 90 in the 12/13 EPL) In 2013/14 Tottenham finished 7th place with 55 goals scored and 51 goals conceded A significant drop off Data aside Gareth bale was a monster in those last few months preceding that world record move to real Madrid Its not an exaggeration to say he had the highest prime of any British player since John Barnes(87-90) Barnes was surely more artistic but not necessarily more productive which is what this all boils down to From 12/13 till 15/16 gareth bale scored in all club competitions 84 goals+64 assists in 13640 minutes 0.96 goals+assists per 90 And whatever you say(about the shots etc) He was not a CF Id put bales prime slightly ahead of ones of Rooney,lampard,Gerrard,scholes and defintely ones like Gazza who was a largely unfulfilled talent If we restrict bales best to the 2nd half of 12/13 i can't imagine many who were better in this country Surely even at a stretch youd concede at his best Gareth bale was in the top dozen performers in Britain since the 60s I remember it like yesterday and he was box office For neutrals that is what football is all about On the last day of the season a whisker away from champions league qualification Few players in the world can do this Mbappe(so far),haaland,salah,mane and others we can list cannot do this Some of the things he was pulling out of the hat cannot be accurately represented by stats The 90th minute winner away at west ham was something similar We can respectfully agree to disagree but IMO he deserves a mention on this thread especially looking back with hindsight what he went on to achieve in his career(sometimes as an integral piece particularly his first 2 seasons) And lets not pretend some of the other players mentioned are not boosted for what they did before even coming to England Klinsmann/gullit and others
Already in the first couple of words you go wrong again. In the post above you said "the second half of 2012/13" (that means: 26 december 2012 to 19 may 2013). Now it is from "january til may". No, no and no. It is also simply not true. It is 31 team goals in the league, excluding the ones he didn't play. The rest I won't respond to.
2014/15 Double digits in PL goals+assists 231 successful dribbles in all comps (66.6% success rate) 100 created chances in the PL Most fouls won As late as the end of April 2015 he had over a 8/10 rating by whoscored=Elite world class Eden Hazard (PL 2014/15): Highest rated player (8.04)Most success dribbles (155)Most key passes (88)#PFAawards pic.twitter.com/eG4tHjc0o0— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) April 26, 2015 This subsequently dropped as the season drew to a close Wasnt too bad in the champions league either(arguably his best showing so far) The performance vs Maribor in the Groupstage(Home and away)is arguably his best European performance(2 goals+8 key passes+23 completed dribbles across both encounters) Eden Hazard for me(when he left Chelsea) did enough to be considered as great as Roberto baggio at club level(never mind someone like Eric cantona) International is a different story(and how much weight is attatched to that is also a different story) Without seeking to be too controversial id say on game/form he is one of the best players English football has ever seen If this version of eden hazard had a killer/goalscorers instinct hed be comparable to all time wing men like Arjen robben,George best,Garrincha etc I can't see anything else he is lacking technically as compared to them
Eden Hazard has arguments for being a greater legend than Baggio I'd argue; Hazard 2018 is as good or better than Baggio 1994; meanwhile, Hazard at club level is easily better, if anything else, purely because Hazard's Chelsea career was not devastated by injuries, versus Baggio's entire career being devastated by his inconsistent fitness level. Roberto Baggio's main thing is the mystical aura about him; the way he could finish a goal after having already completed some technique, was and remains very rare. Without his knee problems, Baggio arguably is a talent comparable to Messi. As for Hazard; Eden Hazard's lack of memorable moments in the Champions League is actually one of the main things that I find increasingly reprehensible about modern football... I just cannot imagine this happening in any other era of this sport. Football has evolved from being excessively in favor of defenders in the 1990s (especially the early 1990s), to being more or less perfectly balanced in the 2000s (especially after the first half of the 2000s), to being excessively in favor of attacking players in the 2010s (again, especially after the first half of the 2010s). My problem is that talented players like Baggio or Hagi could crack the code of their time, even if the referee biases were in favor of defensive players. On the other hand, with modern football because it applies essentially the same exact bias that defenders enjoyed in the 1990s, but in reverse, because the rules are now in place to help facilitate the production of goals; I mean, honestly, it is almost too easy for talented attacking players to learn and perfect the art of exploiting unfair rules, to the point that it is becoming predictable and boring to watch as a spectacle. In other words, while 1990s football was unfairly balanced against the least talented players i.e. defenders in general; the end result is that it forced the talented attacking players into having to come up with great moments of magic, which made for better spectacle, even if one of several unwanted results was that the great attacking players had shorter lived primes; the balance was better, and probably a lot better at that, because talented attacking players can rise above unfair rules much more consistently than if the roles were reversed, that is, much more consistently than less talented defensive players can rise above unfair rules. Modern football increasingly is defined by psychological factors that I believe are primarily driven by arbitrary and unfair referee biases; for example, the fact that virtually any soft contact these days is pretty much by definition enough of a contact to justify the obvious penalty kick... Simply put; central defenders have to worry about microscopic contact i.e. penalty kicks, but then central defenders also have to worry about the modern interpretation of a hand-ball penalty kick i.e. more penalty kicks; the aggregate cost is that central defenders are systematically stressed on the basis of these uniquely modern interpretations, which I think is likely the biggest factor behind the many mistakes by these defensive players; more so than the lack of space and the lack of time that in theory gets most if not all of the credit for said defensive mistakes. The mistake that many modern fans make, is to assume that defenders like Fernando Hierro or Carles Puyol did not used the rules of their time in order to do insane defensive stunts; Fernando Hierro was practically an added defensive midfielder at times, because the rules and tactics of the time allowed him to assume that role, but then you get many modern fans who actually believe that Hierro was sitting back, comfortable, always with plenty of space all around him, which is absolutely not how Hierro played the game; instead, Hierro would actively venture forwards, into the highly congested areas, where he consistently displayed great ability for carrying the ball as well as ball retention skills. Hierro's ability on the ball would not magically become average by modern standards, simply because the congested areas of the pitch are no longer exclusively in the midfield areas, but rather all over the pitch. At any rate, a very arrogant premise and mistake by modern fans, to just blindly assume that defenders of previous eras could consistently get away with being basically mediocre on the ball, because they were under not nearly enough pressure from forwards who did not pressed anywhere near as much as it is common practice in the modern game; I really wonder if these modern fans have ever taken a look at Carles Puyol in his prime, of Fernando Hierro in his prime, as neither one of them made a name for themselves by simply operating under no high risk pressure at all. More or less the same thing applies to the skillful Fabio Cannavaro, who is today being incorrectly remembered as a defender with average ability on the ball, who would likely collapse under the intense pressing of the modern game, etc. Of course, at the same time, the same modern fans fail to see how their logic applies to modern attacking players who enjoy the benefits of playing in an era where defenders are making mistakes all the time, especially in the decisive Champions League Semi Finals and Finals. In conclusion: I increasingly dislike the fact that talented players like Eden Hazard are no longer anywhere near as important in the few precious games that actually matter in the Champions League format; because in those rare games, the difference is increasingly established by the team that was better at exploiting tactical mistakes, which almost by definition means that players like Hazard and Messi are having less and less of an impact, which I think is ultimately detrimental to the quality of the spectacle.
Id say baggio 89-94 had as much quality,end product and consistency within his performances to be compared to eden hazard On his day i think Maybe/perhaps there was another gear in playmaking Hazard in turn was a considerably better athlete and consequently a more consistent/devastating dribbler from game to game No doubt in my mind eden hazard 14/15 was dribbling more game to game than players like Baggio,Maradona at napoli,R9 at Barcelona/inter,Ronaldinho at Barcelona I prefer to watch eden hazard over 90 minutes than baggio(he appears more magical) but in terms of peak for peak impact at club level theres not much in it As for Roberto baggio WC 1994 You cannot quantify the worth of someone who is consistently scoring injury time winners in World cup KO winning games That was the highest level Baggio vs Messi I can't see a valid comparison (talent wise)beyond 2010 The advantages in finishing,athleticism(which is undeniably important for being a devastating dribbler)and playmaking are just too big Eden Hazard at his best appears to be as technically great Messi at dribbling(or at least the closest this generation has produced to Messi as a dribbling outlet) but even then Messi had another gear He was a real savage in 2010/11 , consistently and successfully taking on more players in more dangerous areas of the pitch then anyone in history
Baggio's similarity to Messi, is that Baggio was elite at both dribbling and finishing, which is a very rare talent in any era of football. Of course, as you mentioned, the significant difference in terms of physicality, means that players like Messi or Hazard will be a lot more prolific as dribbling specialists, but again, in terms of quality (not quantity), I think it should never be ignored that Baggio is virtually unbeatable in terms of dribbling technique; also in terms of technique in general. I mean, in terms of difficult games, being prolific generally goes out the window, as normally, difficult games are games where Messi does not completes a lot of dribbling runs, in which case the quality (not quantity) of the dribbling runs is the defining factor; in this regard, Baggio's dribbling ability is probably underrated by modern fans who do not sufficiently appreciate that distinction. I love watching Hazard, but for me Baggio was superior entertainment; I mean, Hazard is nearly insuperable in terms of technique and dribbling, but Baggio is one of the few players in history who could actually be even better than Hazard in the technique and dribbling department. Without the knee problems, and with the benefit of better referee protection; Baggio would have been as entertaining as Zidane or Ronaldinho were. On the other hand, Messi and Hazard are clearly the most prolific dribblers of the past 30 or 40 years, which is always an incredible statistic regardless of the era; but again, it is comprehensively undeniable that referee protection played a big role in Messi's and Hazard's respective abilities to be as prolific as they were at dribbling. For example, Gheorghe Hagi under modern refereeing; he would probably not be quite as prolific as Hazard, but he would probably get close to Hazard. Outside of Michael Laudrup, dribbling was not an ability that was meant to be prolific in the early 1990s, because in that era, being a prolific dribbler was viewed as disrespectful against defenders, and the referees actively facilitated and allowed for the self-regulating cynical intimidation and punishment that the defensive players exercised (rather freely and generously) against the talented players. And, I mean, is Michael Laudrup a prolific dribbler by modern standards? Maybe he is, but it wouldn't surprise me if he weren't. At any rate, I think the 2000s was the best era in terms of how the referee bias operated; it protected players like Baggio more, but without completely going all in against defenders. Anyways, I guess part of what I'm saying is that Eden Hazard is underrated; of course Messi is better, because Messi is goat-tier in terms of both dribbling and finishing... but nevertheless, Eden Hazard just doesn't get enough appreciation from the modern era I'd argue.
There is one weaker thing in your argument and comparison, and that's Baggio his own lack of Champions League exploits. About the only thing he has are the two goals against Real Madrid as a substitute. There were of course limited opportunities to show himself, but contemporaries as Zola (one year older) and Bergkamp have more convincing Champions League moments and games than him. Both played almost all their CL games when they were over 30, and did their thing more at UC level. I agree Hazard should do (way) more at CL level; the best and most impressive he has shown so far are a few good games against Atletico Madrid at their most defensive (in which LM and CR can also struggle and have regularly struggled in 'do-or-die' CL games against Atletico).
Baggio wasnt great enough provider to be a classical number 10 playmaker and not good enough scorer to be a striker/leading any great club side of the 1990-1994 Platini said this and baggios record illustrates this quite clearly Fundamental mistake you are making is not separating technique from actual finishing ability Baggio had the ability to consistently score more technically outstanding goals than someone like todays Jamie vardy but he categorically was not a better finisher Baggio was not a killer in front of goal,with great off the ball movement,positioning etc More a scorer of great goals than a prolific goalscorer and thus not truly elite at finishing Regarding Messi and his ability to be a devastating dribbler against elite teams I dont have the data for all his big games across his 15~ year career If we take 2010/11 as a benchmark and real Madrid and Manchester United that season as a bench mark of what constitutes as a 'elite team' Messi played them 5 times in the champions league+La liga and completed 41 dribbles at a rate of 8.2 per game His seasonal average was just under 6 Guaranteed theres more quality dribbling runs here than Baggio 1992/93 produced against Milan,inter,PSG,parma and Dortmund combined https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/4...mpions-League-2010-2011-Real-Madrid-Barcelona https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/4...mpions-League-2010-2011-Barcelona-Real-Madrid https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/434040/LiveStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2010-2011-Barcelona-Real-Madrid https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/4...Spain-La-Liga-2010-2011-Real-Madrid-Barcelona https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/5...-League-2010-2011-Barcelona-Manchester-United In the home CL leg vs real Madrid he was also fouled 11 times in a single match
@leadleader Regarding hazard(baggio and messi are interesting tangents but dont want the thread to derail) Hazard also has prolific dribbling matches against big teams Maybe this is the pick of the bunch at club level 10 dribbles in 1 match against arsenal 16/17 9.21 rating https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...land-Premier-League-2016-2017-Chelsea-Arsenal But then hazard would dispute arsenal is even a big team to begin The brazil match in WC 18 is his marquee dribbling performance at international level id imagine
I stand corrected on Messi's dribbling ability in difficult games, as you are certainly partly correct, but of course my point is that outside of 2010/11, Messi consistently did not looked like a prolific dribbler in the vast majority of the difficult games: Chelsea 2009 Semi Finals Inter 2010 Semi Finals Chelsea 2012 Semi Finals Atletico Madrid 2014 Quarter Finals Bayern Munich 2015 Semi Finals Juventus 2015 Final Atletico Madrid 2016 Quarter Finals Juventus 2017 Quarter Finals Roma 2018 Quarter Finals At any rate, I do not care what the statistical theory says about Messi's completed dribbling runs in those games, because I watched all of those games, and remember all of those games quite clearly, and Messi was not a prolific dribbler in almost all of those games. Messi does have a few prolific dribbling games against difficult sides, but the vast majority of the time Messi was not a prolific dribbler; and especially after 2011/12, when Messi's dribbling powers were no longer the same. As for Baggio's passing ability; I think you are spectacularly disregarding or underestimating just how defensive the Serie A was at the time. Did Michael Laudrup ever consistently looked like a great assist provider in his time with Juventus? And similarly, how good did Dennis Bergkamp looked in terms of being a great provider of assists? I cannot speak about Michael Laudrup's perception as an assist provider in his time in the Serie A, but Dennis Bergkamp was a great passer, and Bergkamp in his time with Inter Milan never looked like a better passer than Baggio; in fact, if anything, it was actually Baggio who looked like the better passer, even though Bergkamp definitely was the better passer. In a nutshell: Baggio was not a goat-tier assist provider like Hagi or Maradona, but Baggio was a lot better than you appear to imply. And as for Baggio's finishing ability; I mean, I am confident that Baggio was an elite finisher, he just played in a defensive league where it was very difficult for Maradona types to score goals at more or less the same rate as actual strikers. He was elite at finishing in World Cup 1994, because World Cup 1994 was a lot less defensive than the Serie A; Baggio did not magically become clutch for that cup exclusively, instead, the fact that the cup was a lot less defensive than the Serie A, allowed an injured version (this was not even the fully fit version) of Baggio to more comprehensively showcase his finishing ability, which definitely was elite in my book. When the Italian Serie A was considered the best league in the world, and when the Italian national team had plenty of emerging talents; why would Italy build their team around Baggio, if Baggio was not elite at anything outside of only his technique and his dribbling? And given the fact that Baggio's knee injury predictably canceled Baggio's dribbling version, why would Italy insist on building their team around an injured depleted version of Baggio, a player who could not replicate his best dribbling form because he was playing with an injured knee, and a player who also was not actually elite neither as a finisher nor as an assist provider? It just doesn't add up in my eyes. Italy had other fully fit world class players who could play for Baggio, for example, Zola or Mancini could have easily played for Baggio; at any rate, why would Italy insist on building their team around a player who was injured, when that same player also happens to be overrated in terms of both finishing and passing? I mean, injuries have a devastating effect on both dribbling and technique, so it's difficult for me to explain why Italy would still pick Baggio as their number ten player, if Baggio was not elite at anything other than just dribbling and technique. Of course I could be overrating Baggio, but maybe the Italian national team could see in Baggio what I also see in Baggio, which is a player who was elite at dribbling, technique, and finishing, and specifically his ability to play long ball type passes was probably elite, even if his passing ability (outside of the specific variety of long ball type passes) was not elite but rather just good relative to the era.
Ok your mistake now is restricting big games to European Cup high profile matches The following would be considered a BIG career defining game for players like Baggio (even Maradona) 2011/12 Atletico Madrid away(5th place) 103 touches 74 passes 9 dribbles Hattrick from open play Final score:Barcelona 5-0 Atletico Madrid https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/5...in-LaLiga-2011-2012-Barcelona-Atletico-Madrid 2:45 solo goal 4:28 defender just owned completely 5:02 beautiful pass 7.55 wicked throughball chance created 8.33 GOAT level dribbling run starting near his own penalty box and finishing at the edge of the oppositions box Successfully Took on 3 players in 1 run and was taken down by the fourth Mesmerising stuff 10:13 solo dribbling goal There is scholes esque passing at times,1 two passes,dribbling runs and the off course the hattrick from open play This complete package Even in a alternative universe where Baggio was not injured he cannot touch this This is just one of many from the 2009-2012 era It has nothing to do with the defensive nature of Serie A(baggios suspect non penalty goal rate) From 1988/89 till 1993/94 peak Roberto baggio playing predominately as a forward/SS scored 66 non penalty league goals in 15942 minutes(177 appearances) 0.37 non penalty league goals per 90 Was 0.37 non penalty goals per 90 an expected world class goal return in 1980s and 1990s Serie A? Ruud guilt 1986/87 - 1994/95 60 open play Serie A goals in 14626 minutes (162.5 games) 0.37 non penalty goals per 90 Prime Ruud Gullit was not elite at goalscoring. Very very good and competent maybe but a real specialist(You said elite)? No way If we use Michel Platini as a reference point for midfielders with real World class finishing ability in Serie A Baggio is not even close You can probably compare roberto baggios finishing ability to peak Alexis Sanchez 16/17(as a contemporary example) Ok baggio was Better on the set piece and better in tight/crowded areas In turn Sanchez had better positioning,off the ball movement,aggression etc Both are A bit better than hazard in front of goal id say but not by ALOT Bottom line Roberto Baggio was never a world class finisher except in 4 WC KO games in world cup 1994 Injuries you could argue played a part in that but it is simply factual: Roberto Baggio only scored 10 or more non penalty league goals in a single serie A season 3 times his entire career 2 of those times was after 1991/92 campaign(age 25 years old) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-pass_rule WC 1994 is an outlier in his NT career And Serie A 1992/93 even moreso(goal averages went from 2.27 per game in 91/92 to 2.80 in 92/93)
WC 1994 is an outlier in Baggio's NT career? What about Baggio's great open play goal vs. Czech Republic at World Cup 1990? Is this merely another outlier in Baggio's career? Or is this just Baggio being more willing to risk his body at the World Cup, than in the average game in the defensive Serie A? What about Baggio's consistent finishing throughout the 1992/93 UEFA Cup? Outlier, or just further evidence of Baggio's finishing meaningfully improving in the important games? Baggio vs. 1st place AC Milan 1992/93: 1 open play goal + 1 assist / 1 game Baggio vs. 2nd place Paris Saint Germain 1992/93: 2 open play goals + 1 free kick goal / 2 games Baggio vs. 4th place Borussia Dortmund 1992/93: 2 open play goals + 1 assist / 2 games Baggio vs. 3rd place Parma 1992/93: 2 open play goals / 2 games Baggio vs. 2nd place Inter 1992/93 No traditional statistics / 1 game Baggio vs. 1st place AC Milan 1993/94: 1 penalty assist + 1 penalty goal / 2 games Baggio vs. 3rd place Sampdoria 1993/94: 1 open play goal / 2 games Baggio vs. 4th place Lazio 1993/94: 1 open play goal / 2 games Baggio vs. Top 4 Clubs 1992/93 + 1993/94: 13 goal involvement / 14 games 0.93 goal involvement per game 0.64 open play goals per game 9 open play goals + 2 assists + 1 penalty assist + 1 penalty goal + 1 free kick goal / 14 games As I suspected, Baggio's 0.64 open play goals per game is a significant improvement versus Ruud Gullit's 0.37 open play goals per game (and this even after adjusting for the fact that Gullit played for the better team); I mean, should I just assume that Baggio does not consistently do better against better teams, and that the complete 1992/93 season was just one outlier, and that World Cup 1994 was just another outlier, and that Baggio's great goal versus Czech Republic at World Cup 1990 was yet another such outlier, and that Baggio's measurable decline after 1993/94 is not a massive factor to keep in mind when analyzing Baggio's career?? My friend, why can't you take a win when you have a win? I already told you that I stand corrected, at least partially, you certainly have a good argument; Messi is elite in terms of dribbling, finishing, and also passing, versus Baggio who only was elite at dribbling and technique, but possibly not at finishing, and definitely not at passing. But again, the fact that you are now trying to pass Atletico Madrid 2011/12 as some uniquely difficult game where prime Baggio would pale in comparison to Messi?? This is essentially the same weak propaganda that you use to inflate Cristiano Ronaldo; games that Barcelona would probably win without Messi to begin with, and you appear to think that that somehow is important to anything real outside of just Messi's or Ronaldo's statistical inflation. As for Ruud Gullit's finishing ratio; can you please show me Ruud Gullit's finishing ration with the great AC Milan side of the late 1980s and early 1990s, versus Ruud Gullit's finishing ratio after 1994? I mean, you are comparing Ruud Gullit's finishing with a vibrant and legendary AC Milan side, versus Baggio's finishing with a defensive and shrewd Juventus side; this argument will invariably be biased in favor of the player who played in the less defensive side. And yes, long term injury problems absolutely play a huge role in finishing; this is not a theory, but rather obvious and easy to demonstrate. Baggio's finishing was a lot better in important games where he was more willing to put his body at risk; this is an essential part of my argument. At any rate, I will concede the fact that because Baggio's injuries are such an essential part of Baggio's career, it is as a result difficult to construct a robust argument in favor of Baggio. But again, your counter arguments in the quote above are just dishonest, convenient, and frankly lazy. I don't understand why you want to further prove yourself correct, on the basis of weak arguments that do more to disprove your own credibility (and honesty) rather than my own.
@PDG1978 @Edhardy This came up in my timeline (it starts with only moments of close control, but later on also passes etc. appear, this one is really good) One of the most 'player dependent' Premier League wins since 1992? Possibly so.
This is a better one Received applause by Ferguson and the United supporters when playing against his former club (after scoring a goal).
Against the 1993-94 vintage. Only thing is that then the league was perhaps less strong as France, Netherlands, Portugal and arguably even Belgium in absolute quality...
I have heard this many times, about the Premier League being comparatively inferior to the other leagues top leagues, etc. I mean, are there articles written about that, or was it rather established as word of mouth type common sense or consensus?
I suppose the league had not recovered from the European ban just yet, and wouldn't do so until late 90s?
That is my best educated guess as well, but again, how does an inferior league produces arguably the best player in the French League (Chris Waddle) in what was a strong era of the French League? There was Christopher Waddle who was arguably the best ever British export, and there was Paul Gascoigne who was not inferior to the other top rated players at World Cup 1990, and there was Matthew Le Tissier who in my opinion is underrated on many fronts, and there was Alan Shearer who looked every bit as good as the best strikers from most other countries at the time, etc. At any rate, I find it difficult or unconvincing to believe that a demonstrably inferior league would produce talents of that quality (e.g. Chis Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Matt Le Tissier, Alan Shearer), because most of the time, the most logical outcome is what has happened in the Italian Serie A; Baggio, Del Piero, Totti, Pirlo, Vieri, Inzaghi, Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta; the Italian Serie A produced all of those players (minus Baggio) roughly in the same generation, and ever since the comprehensive collapse of the Serie A, Italian football was and remains comprehensively incapable of repeating that era of extraordinary abundance. For example, Francesco Totti could have effortlessly walked into any team in Europe at any point between 2000 and 2005; Italian football is not capable of that anymore. Spanish football comprehensively improved in terms of their domestic production and therefore in terms of their exported players; the Spanish La Liga went from having Fernando Redondo as arguably their de facto best midfield player, to becoming the best ever generation of midfielders; Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Sergio Busquets, Cesc Fabregas, David Silva, Santi Cazorla, all of whom were produced roughly in the same generation. So when I look at the Premier League, and I compare talents like Chris Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Matt Le Tissier, Alan Shearer; I mean, I do not see the easy to measure improvement that I would expect to see in a league that was supposed to improve significantly... In more direct terms, David Beckham, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, and Michael Owen, are not in my opinion improvements versus what came before them. Of course, that does not necessarily means that the Premier League didn't improved significantly, but it does at the very least make me cynical with regards to the supposed improvement; that is, I have reasons to doubt just how good that improvement was in reality.
If Hazard was nearly as disciplined and ambitious as Messi, he would’ve arguably been the best player alongside Messi tbh. I used to think Neymar was a better dribbler than Hazard, but now I don’t think so after watching some of Hazard’s best games as a dribbler.