Very telling things about the current state of college soccer

Discussion in 'College & Amateur Soccer' started by Sandon Mibut, Dec 13, 2019.

  1. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A Florida NJCAA school just cut all athletics a couple of days ago, Broward College. They've had athletics at the institution for 60+ years.

    16 men's soccer programs have been lost in 2020 alone. The 2018-2019 year had 15 total programs gone.

    It's a shame, as male college enrollment is actually supposed to see increases over the next 5-10 years. Depending on the study, projections are anywhere from 7.4-13% increases in male enrollment. Sure we will see programs being added, but the current number is around 15 more programs lost than added since 1990.

    Typically it's been: DI cuts the programs to restructure money towards other sports while all the other divisions look to add (if possible) to increase enrollment. The only positive ratio of add:drop is in DIII (+6), NAIA (+11), and NJCAA (+2). The last year to see more adds than drops is 2016 (+10!).
     
  2. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Add 4 more programs to the list:
    • Gillette College (NJCAA)
    • Sheridan College (NJCAA)
    • Johnson and Wales - Denver (DIII)
    • Johnson and Wales - North Miami (NAIA)
    The two JWU campuses are set to close in summer 2021, but there's a possibility of them not operating fall 2020.

    I am sure there is more to come before August 2020 rolls around.
     
  3. PhillyFury

    PhillyFury Member

    Slavia Prague
    United States
    Jan 1, 2004
    Prague, Czech Republic
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I know this was posted a while ago, but I just dove into this thread recently. This post literally shocked me. Surely, the soccer scene is not as gloomy as all this data suggests? Do most/many kids really quit soccer at 10 after 3 years playing? It does seem fewer kids may be playing, but more kids are playing at a more competitive level, no? MLS? Waning popularity? Really?
     
  4. espola

    espola Member+

    Feb 12, 2006
    Nobody has mentioned the growth of rugby, which competes for players and field space. (Or did I miss it?)
     
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  5. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't mean to be "gloomy" about it, but I'm a realist. There's so much false information out there, but the numbers are what's really being honest. It sucks for me, as I have a career in the sport and have been involved for 30 years. Unfortunately, it's not as positive as what USSF or MLS want to spin it -- since they do control most of what people hear/read anyway.

    Average age of last regular participation: 9.1 years old
    Average length of years of participation: 3.0 years

    The only sport that has a younger "last participation" age is gymnastics (8.7 years old). The average length of participation is around the same average of all sports (2.9 years). There are individual sports that bring that average down a lot (wrestling, tennis, cross country). Some of the lower-length participation numbers are there because athletes join so much later as there's not many opportunities for "youth" cross country (as an example).

    Percentage of kids ages 6-12 who participate in soccer on a regular basis:
    2008 -- 10.4%
    2013 -- 9.3%
    2017 -- 7.7%
    2018 -- 7.4%

    Direct quote from the study:
    Regarding MLS viewership and popularity...in 2006, MLS had 12 franchises and averaged 263,000 viewers for their televised matches. In 2019, MLS had 23 franchises (and another 5 yet to play) and averaged 268,000 viewers.

    Taking those numbers, they increased their "market share" by 56% (total US population with an MLS franchise involved), had a 3% viewership increase (from 263,000 to 268,000) but an overall -34% in relation to their viewership in relation to their market share.

    MLS has an entity for 53% of the US population, but can only garner an average viewership of 0.16% of the population? And, their biggest match of each year (MLS Cup Final) barely gets between 1-2 million each year.

    Then, let us think about college..where we've seen 129 colleges and universities drop men's soccer over the last 30+ years. In 2020 alone, 19 men's soccer programs have been lost. The last year that men's soccer saw a positive add/drop in colleges and universities was 2016. Only NCAA DIII and NAIA have positive numbers through the years in add/drop of men's soccer programs throughout all divisions or affiliations. This number will continue to get worse.
     
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  6. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    While I’m not unique I have seen the last 20 years close up in travel and high end soccer: my first started playing in 1999 and my last is still playing in college. From witnessing that period of time, both genders, multiple states and multiple levels of play here are a few thoughts:

    soccer used to be the community sport, the “other sport” with hockey and the “cool” sport...now lacrosse is the cool sport (and rugby is the other sport). Seems some parents want to always be in the other sports...football, baseball and basketball are so passé

    soccer was a sport that hadn’t yet gotten the DA structure, regular players could play at decent levels, things like ODP were popular, the kid down the street was playing in regionals...now, by age 10 kids are moving into academies, coaches are not dads/moms and the high end skill level has gone way up (now we have 17-20 year olds starting for MLS teams -or playing at Chelsea)

    the Range Rover crowd was all soccer, now they are all lacrosse (part of the cool effect)

    parents are quickly learning that their kids have to be stand out athletes to compete at soccer

    to the point made, there are virtually no soccer scholarships unless you are a DA or very high end player

    lacrosse teams have 40 players

    This evolution will, in my view, produce a better top end product...the US will be better at men’s international soccer, but that will reduce the pool of players by more quickly thinning the herd and/or discouraging the casual participant
     
  7. espola

    espola Member+

    Feb 12, 2006
    All I can say about the current state of college soccer is that it is what it is.
     
    CaptainD repped this.
  8. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    You could be president!
     
  9. PhillyFury

    PhillyFury Member

    Slavia Prague
    United States
    Jan 1, 2004
    Prague, Czech Republic
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems numbers in the past were inflated with all those kids playing rec soccer, such as AYSO, or whatever. The numbers may be down, but the quality is definitely up as the other poster mentioned.

    I think for MLS, the "sophisticated" fan would still rather follow Man. U., Juventus, or whatever, than MLS.

    Anecdotally, have family in suburban Philly, kids played pretty competitive "travel soccer", and occasionally take in a Union game or two. Not passionate fans at all, especially compared to the big three sports. Surprisingly, for me at least, the NHL, is down there too, not much higher, fan interest-wise, than MLS.
     
  10. PhillyFury

    PhillyFury Member

    Slavia Prague
    United States
    Jan 1, 2004
    Prague, Czech Republic
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I grew up in the 1970s, 1980s, back then lacrosse was the prep school sport as well. I don't know if it's really that much popular than in the past. It used to be predominantly a sport played on the east coast. Maybe it's more widespread now.

    Looks like soccer is more competitive now, and, as you say, parents may be opting out for that reason, picking lacrosse, figuring the less competition the better chance of getting that elusive college scholarship...
     
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  11. espola

    espola Member+

    Feb 12, 2006
    When I met my son's new girlfriend, I explained that since I was from New England, I was naturally a Red Sox, Bruins, and Celtics fan. My son asked "What about the Patriots?" "Cheaters".

    Nowhere in that conversation did we mention a soccer team. Just by the accident of cleaning out a closet in preparation for moving, I am wearing a hoodie with our local youth club logo right now. I also have soccer gear from our local high school (where they played and I volunteered) and from my son's college team (and even from the college that recruited my other son who then decided not to go to college). I don't have any pro soccer team stuff at all and only occasionally watch National Teams play.
     
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  12. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of the problem is this whole "sophisticated" fan and "casual" fan notion.

    FIFA did a "Big Study" and determined there were 25+ million soccer players in the United States. The most watched soccer game in US history was the USWNT winning the 2015 World Cup (26+ million viewers). The very next World Cup (2019) had around 14 million viewers.

    MLS averages 265,000 +/- viewers on the regular.

    At some point, we have to realize something is missing and wrong with how we go about the sport. If the sport is growing, how do we lose nearly 50% viewership from the 2015 World Cup final to the 2019 World Cup final? How do we get minuscule numbers for MLS numbers?

    Where are the "sophisticated" fans in these? Where are the "casual" fans in these? Somewhere along the way, the game is not capturing A LOT of both.

    All of this is happening and there's absolute silence from the "leadership" in US Soccer. Youth numbers decline. Silence. College soccer getting cut. Silence. Domestic viewership of the domestic game. Silence. Maybe "silence" is the wrong label I am applying, as they are actually saying it's growing and thriving -- because their narrative only revolves around billionaires throwing money at MLS. "But, look at how many teams are in MLS now..." is not a very good indicator of how things are actually going.
     
  13. stphnsn

    stphnsn Member+

    Jan 30, 2009
    I wonder how many MLS owners are playing with inherited wealth versus being "self-made". I was going to say that you don't get to be a billionaire by making dumb business decisions. That would indicate that the people buying in to MLS think there's room for growth in the model. Assuming a lot of them are actual businessmen who are making these investments, that's a good sign at the top of the pyramid.

    That is all totally separate from a discussion of what's best for soccer in the USA from the bottom up.
     
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  14. espola

    espola Member+

    Feb 12, 2006
    Mark Cuban was almost a self-made billionaire investing in American soccer --

    https://web.archive.org/web/2016030...ship-group-in-new-american-pro-futsal-league/

    Apocryphal - Cuban was asked once why he turned down a billion-dollar offer for the Dallas Mavericks. "What would I do with another billion dollars?"
     
  15. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are they investing in MLS because of MLS? Or are they investing in MLS because of SUMthing else?
     
  16. SuperHyperVenom

    Jan 7, 2019
    #116 SuperHyperVenom, Aug 7, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    Soccer is a relatively easy, fun activity for young kids to start playing very young (U5/U6). Friends/classmates - boys and girls can play on the same team. As kids get older they move on to other team sports like basketball, hockey, football or individual sports like golf, track, swimming, tennis that don't really have established competitions until U10+.

    Soccer isn't "losing" players. I don't think you can count a child as being serious about a sport until approximately U13. And if they are losing players it's because at the elite level soccer takes some money and a lot of personal commitment - skills and technique training on one's own from a young age (U9). And if a young player doesn't consistently have good coaches and competition year after year it's hard for them to catch up to the ones that have. Even at the university level there are still players that can't strike a ball properly, make good, quick decisions or use both feet.

    I would have never thought that rugby would increase in popularity! The risk of head injuries/mental health issues with rugby is real.
     
  17. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Well, some would say they know some crazy rugby players...but I don’t think the sport was solely responsible for their mental health;)
     
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  18. UNCG2004

    UNCG2004 Member

    Leeds United
    United States
    Nov 20, 2019
    #118 UNCG2004, Aug 19, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
    This is what's being done at UNCG as announced by Director of Athletics Kim Record on Monday. Funding will be taken away from five programs instead outright cutting one or several of them - volleyball, tennis and cross country/track. At the once proud soccer school, there will be significant reductions in program budgets (nearly 20% per), there will be furloughs throughout the athletic department for the rest of the calendar year, part-time roles will be eliminated, current job vacancies won't be filled and maintenance projects will be put on hold. Interesting to read that 64% (of approx. $17.5 mil) of the department gets its' funding from student fees. Those fees remained part of student tuition for the fall although there will also be no athletics on campus of any kind this semester. With that said, there have been hundreds of student-athletes brought to the Greensboro campus from all over the world (the mens soccer program itself has five internationals in its' 12-member recruiting class) only for sports to be shut down. So, it will be interesting to follow, that with nearby Chapel Hill going to 100% virtual learning with at least five COVID clusters on campus, I am sure there are fears the same will happen throughout the public-school system in the state (there are reports of a cluster outbreak at NC State and some confirmed recent cases at UNCG). What happens then if UNCG, like many other schools could, go to 100% virtual learning? That is a smaller point when considering the viability and survivability of an athletic department that must thank mens soccer for much of its' history, prestige and visibility. For a school that is already dipping into reserve funds, has an army of exorbitantly paid Associate Athletic Directors on staff and is paying heavily for a basketball team to play off campus in a cavernous, empty coliseum, the future certainly does look bleak. Short of a massive donation, what does Record expect to change financially over the next four and a half months for athletics at UNCG?

    https://uncgspartans.com/news/2020/8/17/general-letter-from-uncg-ad-kim-record.aspx

    https://greensboro.com/sports/uncg-...cle_c11c35a4-e0b7-11ea-bdec-37e10e4ceab5.html
     
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  19. CaptainD

    CaptainD Member

    Oct 20, 2014
    Isn't the soccer team training? The schools that have gone to online only are still letting athletes live on campus to be able to train. (and that is what Carolina is attempting to do now.)
     
  20. collegesoccer

    collegesoccer Member+

    Apr 11, 2005
    Every university has had 20+% budget cuts and furloughs of staff. Most schools (even the wealthy ones) are in survival mode in terms of the budget since those presidents hate to touch the endowment. Tough times for all programs not just UNCG.
     
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  21. JoeSoccerFan

    JoeSoccerFan Member+

    Aug 11, 2000
    Yeah, big cuts. Hiring freezes. Some schools have cut fees (since the kids aren't able to use them). Some schools have cut tuition - though that's a harder cell. You still have to pay instructors and for the facilities (regardless if they aren't used). Perhaps defer maintenance, but this is typically done in good times, too.
     
  22. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Hard times may call for hard time?
     
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  23. Dadof3

    Dadof3 New Member

    Benfica
    Brazil
    Dec 28, 2019
    Most schools will be cutting back but under the leadership of the UNCG AD they may be in big trouble. How do you spend 17 million with no football and not have more success in your sports.
     
  24. JoeSoccerFan

    JoeSoccerFan Member+

    Aug 11, 2000
    I thought the saying was, "Hard times call for hard liquor"?
     
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  25. UNCG2004

    UNCG2004 Member

    Leeds United
    United States
    Nov 20, 2019
    Update from UNC Greensboro. This email chain was received by several UNCG alumni, from a practically anonymous source. In the wake of the EJ O'Keefe debacle from last summer, this is not good for the program. The email was sent directly to Athletic Director Kim Record and she responded within minutes, with carbon copies sent to UNCG compliance oversight, UNCG Chancellor Frank Gilliam and to the Southern Conference Compliance Commissioner. UNCG Soccer 1.png UNCG Soccer 2.png
     
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