MLS Flavors of the Week: 2020 Edition

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by IndividualEleven, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Berhalter's #2 (sj) beat at the near post by Valeri.
     
  2. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tough one for him. I don’t think I’d blame him for any of the three.
    I was late getting back from half but apparently he robbed Ebobisse early in the 2nd half.
     
  3. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He did. Twice on the same play, both great reaction saves from Sean Johnson. He's very very fast for such a big keeper. He gained some respect from me for his performance yesterday. I was pretty low on him before, but the guy would be a solid backup option for the Nats.
     
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  4. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Cross posting, answer to a question about Yueill’s defending:

    Defensive involvement stats aren’t as directly tied to being a great defender as offensive stats seem to be. For instance VVD is 144th in the EPL for tackle success rate (40%). Maybe more tellingly among field players who played 900 minutes he’s 4th for fewest times dribbles past/90 at .24 (FYI Vardy is #1), and I think when you look at these situations they’re mostly transition moments when a player on the run gets played a pass right before they have passed him and are awarded a dribble for not losing it. He attempts a tackle only .39 times per 90. His successful pressure rate was 34.6%, which is closer to the #1 mark of Stones at 43.3%.

    Let’s look at DM. Kante tackle win loss/90 is .63/1.72 for 36.4% while his pressure success ratio/90 was 7.34/22.8 for 32.3%. He had 2.24 blocks, 2.24 int, and 1.82 clearances per 90. He had 0 errors leading to a shot, that’s 0 errors in total over the entire season.

    Last season Yueill was .34/1.18 for 28.6% on tackles, so .84 dribbled past/90. He was 4.61/15.7 for 29.4% on his pressures. He had .88 blocks, .44 int, and 1.08 clearances per 90. He had .03 errors leading to a shot per 90, that was one error in total. Bradley was .64/2.23 for 28.8% on tackles, so 1.59 dribbled past/90. He went 4.81/17.4 for 27.6% on his pressures. He had .98 blocks, .95 int, and 1.14 clearances per 90. He had .04 errors leading to a shot per 90, also 1 total for the season.

    If you go back to dribbled past per 90 the number one CM in MLS in 2019 was Nagbe at .35. How I explain that is that he doesn’t dive in and guys don’t test him, they know he what he’s good at. This has long been one of my eye tests theories. The next highest CM is James Sands with 1.09/1.70 for a 64.3% tackle success rate and .61 dribbled past per 90. My story here is that he’s actually a ball winner, check out the video Dummyrun/John Muller did on him playing as a 6 last game. Then it goes Jacori Hayes, Ulloa, Gregus, Kitchen, Schweinsteiger, Feilhaber, Rocha, then Yueill. So among CM/DM sometimes CB’s he’s 10th in MLS for least times dribbled past per 90. Bradley was 47th.

    So the eye test is that Yueill is somewhat better at winning, or maybe more precisely, not losing challenges. He has a little lower center of gravity and quicker feet than Bradley. He’s not as active despite playing on a fairly active team. He’s not exactly elite in MLS but he may be nearer to the top than I expected.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    That is a pretty big change of opinion after one game.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Pattern of play plays a big part in defensive involvement stats. That's why I consider what a central midfielder does w/re to his central midfield partners. In this regards, Yueill is almost always coming short with respect to partners. National Team. San Jose. DM. CM. Double pivot formation. Single pivot formation. This guy, compared with this cm partners, is almost always lacking in terms of involvement stats.

    The eye-test: Minny dropped Alonso between the CBs to spread central midfield. Athletically, Yueil got eaten alive.
     
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  7. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS is back stock up/down for the various national teams:

    Up - Akinola, Mueller, Aaronson, Paredes, Dunbar, Cowell, Pineda, C. Duke, Bedoya, Amaya, Bye, McKenzie, Turner, Williamson, A. Keita, Shelton, Memo, Finlay, Gutman, Zardes, Farfan

    Down - Bradley, Roldan, Busio, Toye, Dike, Barlow, B. White, Mihailovic, Glad, Bassett, O. Fernandez, Vazquez, Hyndman, Bello, Canouse, Omar, Leyva, Yueill, Araujo (out of position, but struggled), FCD youth (missed oppo), R. Robinson (same)
     
  8. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I agree with this. I've never really found any good defensive stats where you could compile a top 10 list based on them that correlates reasonable well with market value or defensive reputation (which you definitely could do for various offensive stats).

    Unfortunately, after playing around with the dribbled past stats on whoscored for various leagues just now, I don't think that one is an exception either. It does a little better than tackles and interceptions when it comes to capturing several highly valued players, but the lists as a whole (even when you limit them by position) still kind of seem like a random assortment to me.
     
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  9. Bite o' the Cherry

    Charlotte FC
    United States
    May 3, 2006
    Charlotte, NC, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd add Dotson on the upswing.
     
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  10. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    If Berhalter does what most think he will do Yueill will be playing behind Adams and McKennie, two players who can be “very involved” defensively. He should be judged defensively based on the number of mistakes he makes and the sharpness of his positioning and rotations. His job is to cover for those guys to roam and create chaos. SJ’s system makes projecting that very difficult.
     
  11. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    All players need to be judged by sharpness of rotation and number of errors. But, in a system that employs a deep-lying playmaker, it's the job of the 8s to cover, not the other way around. Yueill should be additionally judged by his passing and by the ability of the system to defensively protect him and his space.
     
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  12. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    why do you say down for canouse?

    the asinine rb experiment is seemingly over, and not to overstate his ability hes one of the very few actual defensive mids in the pool.

    i would imagine backup to adams (in a scenario we actually used a true 6) in concacaf is about his ceiling, but whats the alternative? obviously berhalter hasnt shown much interest. we have a ton of current and potential cms that are a mix of actual 8s and more ofensive or defensive 8s. very, very few 10s and 6s.

    hes a very good mls player and again a strong tackler/defensive presence in the middle. mostly theres no one else who replicates what adams brings, i think he offers something the rest of the pool doesnt.

    granted, this is a 20th-30th spot on the roster conversation, just curious why you think his national team outlook is down when hes finally back in his natural position.
     
  13. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I actually had him in the stock down category before last night and removed him as a result of his standout performance. Did the opposite w/ Sands in the stock up category, though I've always been of the opinion he's more a cb.

    Prior to last night Dotson had underwhelmed in the tourney. I was surprised he was in the SL.

    What I think it's demonstrated, as has his career overall, is he's a better fb than cm, since his reads aren't quick & clear enough in congestion centrally. Not as much of an issue for fb's, where his tactical acumen, solid athleticism, defensive awareness + deceptive shooting ability makes him an asset.

    I guess stock down as a cm, stock up as a fb, averaging out as stock neutral. Kreis should have him compete w/ Vines & Cannon or Duncan for spots. I'd start him over Vines. Though I was already of that opinion. Don't highly value left-footed lb's.
     
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  14. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm basing it on the tourney, and he didn't have a good one, from my eye test of seeing most of DCU's action and half paying attention to him, which is backed up by the ratings fwiw: 6.39, 6.5, 6.35 - all weak. He was at low 7's his first two seasons and 6.9 last yr.

    He's typically more the type of 6 I like, but he wasn't even good in the destroyer variety in Orlando. Is that an entrenched issue or a temporary one? I don't know. Much has been made about players stagnating under Olsen typically, beyond if they hang out in MLS too long.

    And he's not gifted to spray the ball all over to beat the shift. So if he's not destroying because he's not in a competitive mood, then he's meh.
     
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  15. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Minny projects Dotson as Honey Badger's heir. In the meantime, they have used him as a utility player at rb, lb, cm, and am.
     
  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It's worth noting that only Pareja and Vermes (and maybe Marsch?) have managed teams with payrolls and spends anywhere near where Berhalter and Columbus were.

    I love Vanney's tactical flexibility, and Tata is an excellent coach, but those coaches have led teams with the highest payrolls and highest transfer spends in MLS. Arena has only managed big budget teams (and do we think he's a good coach now for the USMNT?) -- even in NE, as soon as he came in they bought Bou and Gil, who garnered more in transfer costs and payroll than Columbus spent in five years under Berhalter.

    Bradley is at LAFC, Schmetzer at Seattle and Viera had City group's resources. Savarese has had a strong team, though less spending, and he's been there a shorter time. I'll judge him where Chara and Valeri are gone.

    It's not to say Berhalter is better or worse, but using straight win % (or PPG) is kind of silly.
     
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  17. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic. He had 12g and 12a in 2777 minutes in 2015 under Berhalter.
     
  18. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't watched him much over the last several years, so this was the first time I've really paid attention to what he does in a long while. I always thought of him as a good shot stopper but faulted him for positioning and weak hands and poor command of his 6 yard box. I saw none of those faults yesterday, hence the upgrade. Of course, it is just one game, so grain of salt and all that.
     
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  19. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    is honey badger yueill? you may be talking about something completely unrelated...

    dotson seemingly started strong with youth teams, by the time i started paying attention he had swung pretty far the other way, now seems to be rebounding.

    shocking for a 22 year old, i know. i honestly cant get any read on him though, so hes firmly "wait and see" for me. but you mention what is a bit of a red flag for me- the guys who are valuable on short rosters (ie youth national teams) for their versatility are hard to get a read on.
     
  20. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dread that day. Eryk Williamson was bad again last night. Lots of sloppy passing, poor defending (and nearly got a 2nd yellow) with a few nice moments. Overall, very poor two games in a row.
     
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  21. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honey Badger is Osvaldo Alonso.
     
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  22. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I didn't say those coaches were better or worse based solely on straight win percentage. I said I'd take any of the top 10 names on that list over Berhalter, and I still probably would (yes even Arena).

    They've coached better squads, true, but considering the talent level that the US is nearing, there are some plus sides to having managed high quality talent before as well.
     
  23. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I wouldn't give up on Williamson yet. But he's not going to fill either role. I'd love to see a day at some point where it's actually American kids stepping up into the playmaker and defensive mid roles in MLS.

    The playmaker I get ... we're probably just starting to develop Diego Valeri's and Nico Lodeiros (hopefully). But man, I don't really get why we don't have a few more Diego Charas.
     
  24. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He can be frustrating in that he's sleepy. Seems to settle positionally instead of show to the ball. And he'll often just defer to others.

    But then for periods he'll get aggressive and it usually works for him where he's one of the best players on the field.

    And when pressed it'll prompt him into poor man's Nagbe mode where he's good at getting out of tight spaces to make and inventive pass. Could help him succeed at a higher level where he'll be put in those spots more. He's got more mettle than a Nagbe.

    I think he's been consistently an asset for PDX when he plays, just to varying degrees, and not necessarily living up to his high potential.

    Have seen nothing that should take him out of the lineup, beyond even PDX not having lost in his 4 starts, so you stick w/ what's working.
     
  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Sands was stuck picking up the pieces when his attackers failed to execute their defensive assignments on Portland's counter.

    Coach Deila post game:
    "I think we have improved during the tournament," Deila said. "I think we had some really good games. But today I think we weren't good at offensive marking enough and they got too many chances on the counterattacks

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020...more-consistency-after-rollercoaster-mls-back

    NYCFC are more fun to watch this year but have not struck the right balance yet.

    Agree on Dotson. I'd be tempted to move him ahead of Lima on the rb ladder altho I'm still waiting for Lima to move to RB at club.
     

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