Quarterfinals assignments: 7/17/20 North Carolina Courage vs Portland Thorns Zions Bank Stadium (12:30PM ET) REF: Lukasz Szpala AR1: Brooke Mayo AR2: Salma Perez 4TH: Michael Radchuk Houston Dash vs Utah Royals Zions Bank Stadium (10PM ET) REF: Danielle Chesky AR1: Walt Heatherly AR2: Meghan Mullen 4TH: Karen Abt 7/18/20 Washington Spirit vs Sky Blue FC Zions Bank Stadium (12:30PM ET) REF: Tori Penso AR1: Jennifer Garner AR2: Tiffini Turpin 4TH: Karen Abt OL Reign vs Chicago Red Stars Zions Bank Stadium (10PM ET) REF: Katja Koroleva AR1: Deleana Quan AR2: Tom Felice 4TH: Danielle Chesky
Not a good performance. In first half, located one foul that should have been a pk and yellow for DOGSO outside area, but then gave only yellow. IMO missed another DOGSO in 2nd half. Never really had control or respect from players, and had to give a bunch of cards late after things had gotten out of hand.
On the 2nd DOGSO situation, there is a defender central of the attacker with the ball and the timing of whether or not that defender is going to be able to make the play is the crux of the thing. In this case the decision is so close on the number of defenders that I think you have to defer to the referee on the field. For me, I would want the number of defenders issue and all of the other elements to be OBVIOUS, this one is debatable, but to be fair to you, if the referee had gone the other way, I'd probably be OK with that too.
With all due respect, if you think the defender is getting there in time to prevent a shot by a high skilled England international, I don't know what to say. Video of the play linked here. RD3 goes through and...🥴 pic.twitter.com/nGpGAvgcJe— Houston Dash (@HoustonDash) July 18, 2020 When referees miss these calls, it is often because they call the foul and then look around for other defenders, which gives a distorted picture. Refs should be thinking to themselves "If that's a foul, it's DOGSO" prior to calling the foul.
That's great technique and I know PRO refs are taught to do that. But I think there is an argument that the defender in the center of the field could make a play here. I'm not saying she will for sure, but then can you say she obviously can't? The defender is goal side of the ball... But, If that's your opinion that she obviously can't make this play, then you'd be right to send them off. If you have a doubt, I think caution is a reasonable choice. I am not saying she is right or wrong, but I don't have this as a stone-cold DOGSO.
I don't think the defender is goalside of the ball, but even if she is, do you really think she is going to prevent the shot here while the goalkeeper is well off her line and out of position? I understand your point of view, and I acknowledge that it is a psychological reality for many referees, but I will respond with a question. Why are we looking to excuse or reward cynical play? Let's get this deliberate cynical play out of the game. What does football expect? I think the answer to that is a red card. There are times when referees have to be firm and not care if making a big call pisses someone off. For me, this is one of those times.
It's a worthwhile discussion. We have these criteria in the form of considerations from FIFA to judge it, and that is what I've been discussing. Obviously, "football understanding" is another potential element. And then there is the idea that DOGSO should be "obvious." There are some competing concepts here. I agree this foul is cynical and deliberate. The question is how much weight does that factor take over a referee's opinion that there might be a missing DOGSO element. Common sense (feel of the game/football understanding) vs. Consistency (clear considerations - make decisions more objective)... So, it is something of a philosophical question you've asked. I'll give you this, it feels like a red card. But, if the referee has doubts about a possible consideration point, I think it comes down to referee opinion which we should support that if it is a reasonable debate.
Agree with your thoughts there. Another factor that should have come into play with any street smarts is that they had already failed to issue a DOGSO sendoff that impacted Houston negatively. So now Houston believes they have been screwed twice.
So you agree the foul by the keeper at the 7th minute is a pk? One question, why is the 1st one DoGSO yellow but the 2nd maybe a red?
This play and the DOGSO in the SKC-Colorado MLS game from Friday night are great case studies for discussion of what constitutes a DOGSO and what we should be considering before determining which card we are going to show. In my opinion, this one is a DOGSO and a red card. Watching the video at live speed, the keeper is off her line. I think the shot is going to happen before the defender coming from the center of the field can nullify the obvious opportunity. Perhaps, if the keeper is closer to her line, then the defender would get there and remove the consideration for a DOGSO. For me, this play differs from the SKC-Rapids DOGSO because of the direction of the ball. The last touch continues to put the ball forward toward goal. In the SKC-Rapids game, the ball is going more away from goal (in my opinion, of course). That takes away the obvious nature of the opportunity. No doubt that in both cases, the foul is cynical, professional, and with intent. In both cases, it's more than defensible to go with a red card. In both cases, I could make a case for not calling it DOGSO and cautioning for SPA.
ReflADad I agree with much of your post and respect your point of view, but I find your last sentence is one that gets to the heart of the matter. We as referees, at all levels, FIFA World Cup included, have backed off the hard line standard that was applied in the latter half of the 90's and in 2000's until the 2010 World Cup. As a group, we have too often made a case for not giving a red card. It's understandable, because it is often easier from a management standpoint to give a yellow. Your summary was accurate. Both fouls were cynical and deliberate. The rule was put in to stop cynical play. I humbly submit that we are in need of a course correction again.
MassachusettsRef also addressed the SKC/Colorado bit of this comment over in the MLS discussion here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/mls-is-back-tournament-rs.2110199/page-4#post-38807727
I don't disagree with you one bit. I've long been on record saying that referees at the professional level need to be more concerned with protecting players and removing cynical play and less concerned with ending games 11 v 11. The 2018 World Cup game between England and Colombia (Geiger's game) was a prime example. There is little doubt in my mind that Mark Geiger sends off the Colombia player for the head butt if the direction from FIFA isn't to do everything humanly possible to end games 11 v 11. It's a systemic issue. Until groups like the MLS Disciplinary Committee back their officials and stop rescinding borderline red cards, we are going to continue seeing items like this be cautions only. Of course, then when the professional level produces so few red cards, that expectation spills into the grass roots. I think it goes back to the Portugal-Netherlands game in the 2006 World Cup. Valentin Ivanov did his job in that game, and it didn't even seem like the players minded 16 cautions and two send-offs. Unfortunately, Herr Sepp got his underwear pulled too tight about the players behaving like idiots and scapegoated Ivanov. And here we are . . .
It's not that simple and this framing isn't accurate. They are not "their" referees. There is, I believe, one former referee on the DisCo. And MLS has a big and sometimes pretty direct hand in the process. The rules governing the DisCo and when it can intervene also have changed year to year. So last year the DisCo could only intervene for a missed red if it felt it was a 2-game suspension... and, of course, given 1-game is standard in MLS and you're not dealing with a group of referees, that threshold was rarely met. Also, the DisCo doesn't/didn't rescind. The Independent Review Panel did that. That triumvirate, in theory, needs a PRO vote to rescind. But I genuinely don't know if it's operating in the same fashion this season. Long way of saying that MLS is the issue. Four send offs. Increasingly off-topic, but I think it's hard to put things solely on that game. Cameroon v Germany in 2002 and Spain v Netherlands in 2010 occur before and after that match. I obviously share the opinion that the use of cards at the international level has decreased over the last decade or so. But pinpointing an exact reason why or date where it really took hold is a little harder to figure out. I don't think the U20s and U17s, for example, had noticeable drops in misconduct until the early 2010s so I really don't think you can say anything changed significantly until the lead-up to World Cup 2014. So you're looking at 6-7 years after that match until things really changed. When did Busacca come in?
Thanks for the clarification. I got my committees mixed up. Despite my being a little fuzzy on the details, my opinion still stands. The focus still seems to be on ending games 11 v 11 and not protecting players enough or trying to remove cynical play. According to Wikipedia (I know, take it with a grain of salt), Busacca assumed the position of FIFA's head of referee development in July 2011.
Ivanov's problem was that he missed a clear straight red early in that game (Boulahrouz on Cristiano Ronaldo in 7th minute) He was giving yellows for minor stuff, and yellows for what should have been red. Players figured out that the was not going to issue a straight red and acted accordingly. If he gives the early red, I don't think he comes anywhere near 20 cards for the match.
While all those games that @MassachusettsRef referenced took several years apart there was a pattern that led up to those games. The 2006 World Cup had more red and yellow cards than any World Cup before and since. But if you look at the numbers there became a sharp decrease right after that Portugal vs. Netherlands match. I think only two red cards were produced after that match and both were for violent conduct (Zidane and Rooney). No second cautions and no serious foul play. Now part of it is that the teams finally adjusted to the officiating and got the message. Also, these were the last 8 teams and they were all of the highest quality in terms of talent (Portugal, France, Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Italy and Ukraine). There were no really rank outsider (other than Ukraine) who had to play extreme defensive tactics to get by. But it's also naive to think that after the round 16 when the officials for the last 7 matches were retained, that there wasn't some meeting of those officials to tell them to tone it down a little bit with the cards. The 2010 World Cup Final was the denouement to lax officiating standards in terms of red and yellow cards throughout that the entire World Cup. The lenient officiating that was pervasive through out that World Cup caught up with the Webb and FIFA. The numbers tell the story. Red and yellow cards given were significantly down from the previous World Cup. Also, the timing of the yellow cards given were down as well. There weren't as many cautions given in the first 15 minutes of the match in the 2010 World Cup compared to the 2006 World Cup. All metrics pointed to an officiating policy of less cards. Go watch some of the highlights that @Mikael_Referee posted of all the games in that entire World Cup. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/world-cup-2010-refereeing-highlights.2110314/ Go through the first half of any of those games and there is such an obvious pattern. The referees are letting easy and obvious cautions slide with management that were 100% cautions every time in the 2006 World Cup. I urge you to watch the first minute of the highlights of the Paraguay vs. Japan match with Frank De Bleeckere in the middle. There is a 100% tackle from behind (55 seconds into the video). In the first minute or so of the match. It's a textbook yellow card and De Bleeckere just gives a warning. Go look at the Dutch matches. De Jong, Van Bommel and others saw that they kept getting away with cautions in the first half and they saw that Robben was being targeted at times and the officials were being more conservative in the issuance of cards. They saw the pattern and then they ran into of the best international teams of all-time combined with a referee who was more known for being a "man-manager" rather than a disciplinarian and you get the debacle that was the 2010 World Cup Final. Instead of coming to the conclusion that lenient disciplinary standards and promoting "man-managers" rather than disciplinarians was the reason for the 2010 World Cup Final, FIFA instead, essentially, doubled down and thought the giving of cards was the problem and not the physical/dirty/cynical play.
I'm behind due to a backpacking trip, but watched the Thorns-Courage game from this past week and was impressed with Szpala. Thought he kept good control on what could have gotten out of hand due to the rivalry and the frustration from the Courage. Particularly liked how quickly he would run into the penalty area on the two occasions when there was a challenge on the keeper, in one case likely avoiding a mass confrontation due to his presence.
If it were called correctly, it would be a pk and yellow for DOGSO inside area that is not holding and is an attempt to play the ball. The second to me is DOGSO outside the area, which would be red
The assignments for the semifinals of the 2020 National Women’s Soccer League Challenge Cup: 07/22/20 Portland Thorns vs Houston Dash Rio Tinto Stadium (12:30PM ET) REF: Tori Penso AR1: Jennifer Garner AR2: Tiffini Turpin 4TH: Karen Abt Sky Blue FC vs Chicago Red Stars Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET) REF: Lukasz Szpala AR1: Deleana Quan AR2: Walt Heatherly 4TH: Danielle Chesky I assume it’s Koroleva for the whistle. Radchuk’s USL game was at Rio Tinto so there’s a good chance he would be the 4th. Assuming nobody on a semi gets the final as well, available assistants are Meghan Mullen, Stephen McGonagle, Brooke Mayo, and Tom Felice. I wouldn’t be surprised if PRO goes with an all female on-field crew. McGonagle had 3 assignments and Felice 4, so if I had to pick one for RAR I guess it would be Felice. My prediction: R: Katja Koroleva AR1: Brooke Mayo AR2: Meghan Mullen 4th: Michael Radchuk RAR: Tom Felice Of course, PRO could just use people from the semis if they wanted to.
I haven't watched any NWSL / MLS games since the restart (and I would be lying to say I plan to in the future ) but perhaps I can offer sth on the topic of FIFA Refereeing, having rewatched every game from World Cup 2010 and nearly being three-quarter-way through World Cup 2002. Busacca is the key to understanding 'modern' refereeing (ie. c. World Cup 2010). Or not really Busacca himself. Having rewatched every game from World Cup 2010 (the tournament was not that leniently officiated by the way: look at Denmark - Japan and Chile - Switzerland and tell me that's leniency...), I was interested to try and find out not what changed because that's obvious, but why the optic of refereeing changed. My conclusions are actually quite simple: World Cup 2010 was regarded as a very boring WC. This worried Blatter. His solution was to change the way that games are officiated in order to make them more interesting - he set up a commission to look at how to improve football at Brazil 2014, which Massimo Busacca (then an active referee) sat on. It's no coincidence that then Busacca, not a professional referee in Switzerland at the time, then retired very early to execute this vision for Blatter. Blatter gives a nod to this at a press conference at World Cup 2010: "We will come out with a new model in November on how to improve high level referees," he commented. "We will start with a new concept of how to improve match control. I cannot disclose more of what we are doing but something has to be changed." If you are interested in what this meant practically, my review of Confederations Cup 2013 looks at Busacca-ism on a practical level, and what it means then and now. Post-2011 has really been a total revolution that has totally changed - some would argue sold out - refereeing. It changed the role of top level referee so much, moved the goalposts for what a good referee is so much (Saghafi, Marrufo, Elfath with all the respect are certainly beneficiaries of their time) - it's really easy to underestimate just how big a shift this was for refereeing, it changed almost everything. And since Čeferin took over at UEFA, all five major confederations now essentially follow the FIFA Principle of refereeing, which is certainly here to stay.
If I may address some more points: I really disagree. World Cup 2010 featured an eclectic mix of refereeing styles, and FIFA weren't that prescriptive as to how the games would be officiated. Khalil Al-Ghamdi and Alberto Undiano Mallenco were selected for that tournament; why the f*** would you choose them if you wanted referees to manage games without cards! Undiano, after Germany - Serbia, got a Round of Sixteen game! This was not a lenient tournament - however good a narrative that is, considering what happened in the final. Webb 100% deserved the final by the way, he was excellent in his first three games, especially Slovakia - Italy (what a game!!). As ever with holistic refereeing issues, it's not about refereeing itself. Just as Blatter intervened after World Cup 1990 to make referees more rigorous against heavy tackles that injured star players, he intervened after World Cup 2010 to make referees execute a style that made matches more reasonable. After 2014, FIFA didn't stop with that vision - they simply don't really care about player safety or in principle (what I would call) good officiating. Couldn't have said it better myself. Ivanov's performance was not good, actually it was very poor, and it should not be a gold-standard for rigorous officiating. López Nieto in Cameroon - Germany was a lot better, even if he lacked in communication and management skills. Ergo: saying that World Cup 2010 was the start is to totally miss the point. 2010 was the end of old officiating and caused - not for refereeing reasons, but because of the apparently boring football - of the Busacca-led recasting of the referee from a game-manager to an event-manager.
My question was meant to be rhetorical! But you've shed a good deal of light onto what really has happened.