Has Neymar jr surpassed Luis figo

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 2, 2018.

?

Has Neymar equalled or surpassed Luis figo

  1. Yes

    21 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No

    21 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    About Progressive Carries:

    [​IMG]

    He carry his team (PSG) more meters than Hazard, Messi or others.

    Also I see many people think someone like De Bruyne is a midfielder, but Neymar does have more touches in the defense and the middle 1/3 compared to the total touches of the De Bruyne (CM/AM) or others like Hazard (LWF, SS) or Messi (SS). He also apply his pressures deeper on the pitch than a SS Messi or Hazard for example.

    IMO he is playing as attacking midfielder in the PSG, especially in the last two seasons 2018/9 and 2019/2020





     
  2. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    *Before the Copa América 2019, don't consider matches with less than 45 minutes played (vs Catar, Camaroes and vs Costa Rica)

    8006 minutes (= 89 matches)
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    A 14 year old Neymar assisting Romario for a 1 v 1 opportunity

    2:04

    Romario assists 'baby' Neymar who scores a GREAT goal at 2:40
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    :confused:

    473.jpg

    You are probably getting confused with Pele's stats at Santos
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Brazilian League is 38 matches.

    https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeonato_Brasileiro_de_Futebol_de_2012_-_Série_A#Classificação

    Neymar scored 45 Non-PK Goals and had 28 assists in (7733 minutes = 85.9 Matches)
    0.85 Non-PK Goals or assists per 90 in the Brazilian League.

    In the matches Neymar played for the Brazilian League Santos 1.69 Goals per match.

    0.85/1.70 = 50%, including PKs 0.955 per 90/1.70 = 56%.

    Transfermarkt numbers tho.

    Wiki French (more correct) had Neymar with 22 assists in the Brazilian League.

    45.9% without PKs, including PKs = 52%

    Neymar 17-20 years old.

    60% is including Libertadores, Paulista state League or Copa do Brazil, and if it not 60%, it is more than 50% anyway.


    Figo 16 Goals and 42 Assists in 129 Matches (=118 full matches) in the weaker Portuguese division with 18-22 years old. Sporting scored 228 Goals.

    0.49 Goals or Assists per 90 / 1.77 = 27,7%

    It is not even close. Neymar's real level and class are of another level if compared to Figo's.

    By far the best Brazilian talent since R9 to play in the Brazilian League. :)

    Robinho (overhyped by Brazilian media) Santos averaged 2.16 when he was playing, Santos was a much stronger team if compared, Robinho had 66 G+A to =107 full matches = 0.61 / 2.16 = 28.2% Robinho was also older than Neymar as well.

    Tevez as a focal point of a super Corinthians at 21, 22 years old had 33 G+A in 36.9 Full Matches = 0.895

    0.895/2.1 = 42.61%.


    Neymar (17-20 years old) 52% > Tevez (21,22 years old) 42.5%, Robinho (18-21 years old) 28%

    Neymar was also a better ball progressor, dribbler etc.

    Tevez at a main guy at Juve and Man City had ~0.9 G+A per 90 and whoscored ratings as a starter of 7.60 in the Premier League and 7.80 in the Serie A.
    Manchester City = 0.87 G+A per 90 / 1.815 = 48% Premier League
    Juventus = 0.92 G+A per 90 / 2.07 = 44.44% Serie A

    Neymar - 17 years old:
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    La liga

    Luis figo 2000/01
    7 non penalty goals+18 assists
    2949 miniutes
    0.76 goal+assist per 90

    Team goals
    81

    Direct involvement by player
    31%



    Neymar 15/16
    19 non penalty goals+16 assists
    3056 miniutes
    1.03 goal+assist per 90

    Team goals
    112

    Direct involvement by player
    31%



    Figo 00/01 vs Neymar 15/16


    Goals +assists vs top 10 la liga teams

    Luis Figo 00/01

    3 non pen goals+ 9 assists
    1518 mins
    37 team goals
    32% direct involvement
    0.77 goal +assist per 90



    Neymar 15/16

    9 non pen goals+7 assists
    1350 miniutes
    41 team goals

    Directly involved in 39% of team goals vs top 10 la liga teams
    1.2 goal+assist per 90

    Neymar 2015/16 >Luis Figo 2000/01
    Agreed

    Not by a huge Distance

    neymar played on a higher scoring team yet was still
    involved in an equal proportion of total goals scored by team

    Was more productive against top teams aswell


    Neymar will lose big time against Rivaldo 98/99 and R10 05/06

    Will come back to this later

    https://www.transfermarkt.com/luis-.../3446/plus/0?saison_id=2000&wettbewerb_id=ES1
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/neyma...68290/plus/0?saison_id=2015&wettbewerb_id=ES1
     
  8. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    The truth is that they don't compare, Neymar is better than Figo and even was. Figo I would say was a Ribery-level player, perhaps reached Hazard's level and that's it.

    And Rivaldo was no better than Neymar even tho he was better than Figo and Ronaldinho, although more technical was less objective and much more inconsistent than Neymar.
    Neymar is better than both at the end of the day.

    You can try to lie to others, but not to yourself. So there is no point in manipulating numbers or selecting one or another statistic superficially in an autistic way.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #234 carlito86, Jul 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020


    Hazard never reached riberys level of production in 12/13 and neither player reached figos production in 99/00 or 00/01

    Figo for 2 years was an all time great winger
    What he did before and after is well below this but those 2 years can certainly compare favourably to Rivaldo

    Hazard is simply not in the equation

    Neymar and Robben had the talent
    Yet Only robben( in peak physical condition )applied that talent in the league and CL KO stages

    Not Neymar who was exposed in the QF vs atletico Madrid during 15/16 and 16/17
    Did nothing thus far in the CL KO rounds for PSG



    Figo 99/00+00/01
    League+CL

    23 goals+43 assists
    7720 minutes
    0.77 goal+assist per 90


    Even if you combine the best seasons of hazard in England+CL
    14/15 PL
    14/15 CL
    17/18 CL
    18/19 PL
    (Hazard doesnt have a sustained defined peak often fluctuating between seasons
    So AGAIN i have to pick segments of seasons=another makeshift all time great)

    27 non penalty goals+32 assists
    7570 mins
    0.70 non penalty goal+assist per 90



    if you combine the best of ribery at bundesliga+CL
    2011/12+2012/13

    26 goals
    31 assists
    6372 minutes
    0.8 goal+ assist per 90

    Slightly better
    But then ribery played on a higher scoring team than Figo

    And even if you say Figo played on higher scoring team than hazard
    Team edge doesn't always directly translate into better production

    The season before hazard joined real Madrid they scored 94 goals in la liga
    He joined a superteam (fact)

    Hazard couldn't make the transition from being a big fish in a small pond to joining a team full of stars

    Figo was part of (if not the main reason) Barcelona was the highest scoring team in la liga 1999/00
    Madrid 99/00 scored only 58 league goals to Barcelona's 70

    Figo joined Madrid in 00/01
    Madrid now outscored Barcelona in la liga


    Barcelona was the highest scoring team in la liga the season before Neymar arrived(2012/13)

    And the season Neymar left (2017/18)

    Barcelona won la liga the season before Neymar arrived(2012/13)

    Barcelona won la liga the season Neymar left(2017/18)






    BTW
    With neymar im taking some liberties
    Figo was actually a real midfielder of the 4-4-2 era


    Figo(his first 2 seasons for Madrid)
    Was averaging 50 passes per match with 80% pass accuracy
    2.4 completed crosses per match

    In the champions league its even higher
    56 passes per match
    83% pass accuracy
    3.1 completed crosses per match
    https://www.xtratime.org/threads/zidane-raúl-or-figo-who-is-the-most-important-to-madrid.103611/



    At his 'winger best' neymar 16/17 completed
    2.2 crosses per match in la liga
    50.7 passes per match
    76.5 pass rate


    Neymar had to go to the substandard ligue 1 to better this

    At a base technical level figo wasn't inferior to any of the aforementioned players
    Players like hazard and neymar are so much better athletes that they are able to perform at higher intensity perhaps for longer periods(certainly is the case with Neymar)

    You already saw how gifted figo was as a dribbler for Barcelona
    His combination of wing dribbling and crossing is unmatched by anyone in the past 30 years
    Of that i am certain


    With the athleticism of Maradona 79-85
    Or Messi 05-12
    He would be a genuine terror
    10× greater than garrincha (the 1 trick pony)

    From a standing position neymar cannot dribble 3-4 players
    On the run he is devastating i agree but in tight areas they are not the same


    Over a 10 or even 5 year period for Club or NT ill go with Neymar
    Over a 2 consecutive uninterrupted period it could go either way

    Youve deluded yourself if you think the value of hazard is comparable to Figo at best

    Figo left Barcelona as the unanimous MVP of la liga and Rivaldo was still playing there
    As was Raul, kluivert,Redondo,Djalminha,Mendieta
    These were all regular World class players at their peak

    Figo wasn't just MVP of la liga also the world player of the year
    Zidane,Totti,beckham,bergkamp,nedved,batistuta,shevchenco were all playing

    Hazard was never really considered for the duration of a season as even top 5 in the world

    8th place ballon dor 2015
    8th ballon dor 2018
    These are his highest positions

    Forget about Cristiano and Messi hogging ballon dor spots
    Every single year there were at least 4 players not named Ronaldo or Messi who were considered greater than hazard at his best
    At least(most of the times it was much more than that)



    Hazard was only arguably top 5 in the world during segments of seasons


    The first half of 2014/15 was blistering
    So was the first few months of 18/19

    Prime Hazard was not only inconsistent from season to season
    He was also inconsistent within seasons

    2018/19
    August to December
    10 PL goals+9 assists in 19 appearences

    January to May
    6 goals+6 assists in 18 appearences

    Figo 99-01
    Rivaldo 98/99
    Ronaldinho 05/06
    Are defined peaks

    If you take their whole careers into account yes they were relatively inconsistent

    At there peak form
    Single season or 2 they were consistent from beginning till end


    Neymar in the first and 2nd half of 2015/16 and 16/17 are not the same player

    Performances in the first half of campaigns are not apportioned the same weight as those in the 2nd half

    Now
    Im waiting for more graphs
    ...
     
    Joe Martelo repped this.
  10. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    On a season-season basis, Hazard has actually been one of the most consistent player in the EPL.

    If you disregard 15-16, when the whole Chelsea team played to get Mourinho fired, then Hazard is easily considered one of the best player in the league in 5 of the 6 seasons he's been there. Basically, every season except his first.

    Describing him as a big fish in a small pond is perfect. He was Chelsea's main creative outlet, while also contributing 10+ goals, and Chelsea's offense obviously lived and died by him.

    I don't know if we can call him a flop at Madrid yet. I think we need to wait for him to get a full injury-free season there before making a call.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #236 carlito86, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Roberto Baggio is a player ive always appreciated on visceral level
    He was a real and actual prodigy
    He debuted at 15 years old (and already had a phenomenal career at youth level scoring 110 goals in 120 appearences at only 13 years old)


    Baggio had a near career ending injury at 18 years old
    It was almost over before it had even begun
    Baggio also played half his prime in one of the most defensive eras in Serie A history

    Baggios prime is his last 2 seasons for Fiorentina and first 4 for juventus
    1988-1994
    If you want to compare it will be a balanced comparison
    No Brazilian overzealousness



    Neymar 2014/15 -2018/19
    A 6 consecutive season prime

    Vs


    Roberto Baggio
    1988/89 -1993/94

    This is a league only comparison


    Bear in mind Neymar always played for the best teams in his league
    Was not physically impaired
    And played in a higher scoring teams in higher scoring era

    So please dont cry about how neymar wasn't the focal point blah blah


    Roberto Baggio 88-94
    102 league goals+35 assists
    35 penalties
    15942 minutes
    0.57 non penalty goal+assist per 90
    http://soccer-europe.com/Biographies/Roberto_Baggio.html
    His assists are from here everything else (miniutes and goals are from transfermarket)

    Neymar Jr
    106 goals+67 assists
    21 penalties
    12841 miniutes
    1.06 non penalty goals+assists per 90
    (Transfermarket)



    It looks like a 1 sided comparison right?
    look how much greater neymar is

    Yeah sure

    In games he played across those 6 consecutive league seasons fiorentina and juventus only scored 244 team goals

    In games neymar played across those 6 consecutive league seasons Barcelona and PSG scored
    447 goals

    Baggio was known for scoring a huge amount of penalties
    And even without his penalties he was directly involved in 41% of his teams league goals over 6 consecutive seasons

    With his penalties this goes up to
    57%

    Baggio was carrying his teams during his prime


    Neymar without his penalties(but including assists)
    Accounts for 34% of his teams goals

    Neymar with his penalties(including assists)
    Accounts for 38% of his teams goals


    Baggio played for fiorentina in 1989/89 when they finished in 14th place( 1 place above the relegation zone)
    They scored only 29 goals in the entire league season

    PSG can score 29 goals in 5-6 games without Neymar even playing

    Baggio dragged fiorentina to 8th place in Serie A 89/90
    Baggio was so great that he finished 8th place in the 1990 BD playing for an 8th place team in Serie A



    The season he left for Juventus in 90/91 fiorentina were relegated from Serie A
    Finishing bottom in the league and scored only 18 league goals All season

    That is the effect of baggio

    The immediate history of Barcelona/PSG
    Pre Neymar is the same

    They were completely dominating the scene before and after
    Neymar is better at battering lower teams
    Scoring well assisted goals against bigger teams
    Performing dribbles in uncrowded midfield positions

    He cannot carry a team when the odds are completely stacked
    Playing through persistent knee injures
    Forget about it

    Neymar spends half his career on the stretcher

    Neymar is a more creative player in terms of vision but that's it!!!
    Everything else goes to baggio



    To be frank with you what baggio did for fiorentina in Serie A 1989/90 is as great if not greater than what maradona did for Napoli in 1984/85

    Napoli finished in 11th place and with 26 points in 1983/84 Serie A

    When Maradona joined them in 1984/85 he dragged them to 8th place
    Napoli 84/85 recorded 34 points in the league
    And maradona contributed with
    14 goals+5 assists




    Fiorentina 1988/89 finished 14th place in Serie A with 29 points

    Roberto Baggio dragged fiorentina to 8th place in Serie A 89/90
    Fiorentina finished with 34 points(identical to Napoli 84/85)

    Baggio contributed with
    17 league goals+6 assists

    Unlike Maradona 84/85 baggio was not battering small teams like Lazio or cremonese



    @Dearman why doesn't he benefit from the same revisionism as maradona 84/85?
    DBS calico is the average score of player ratings recorded by various newspapers in italy

    Player ratings=journalistic opinion

    Fact:
    Baggio 89/90 had league goals(and assists) against inter,napoli,Milan,juventus and sampdoria

    Maradona 84/85 had 0 goals+0 assists vs top 4 league teams


    Baggio was the playmaker of Fiorentina
    Not a CF but a creative deep lying forward/playmaker

    Tracking back and defending a great deal(more than i ever saw Maradona defend)




    3:39

    Look at him near his own penalty area dispossessing Marco van basten and then destroying him with a great piece of skill


    There are many other instances like this (and this is against saachis Milan at their peak)


    Baggio 89/90 earned and scored penalties vs inter and Milan
    Scored that phenomenal solo vs Napoli

    Baggio was GREAT
    Outstanding really for Fiorentina 89/90







    Bringing it back(tropiero gosh:rolleyes:)
    Baggio is overrated when it is said he was a top 20-25 all timer
    Technically he definitely was
    Buts that's if we ignore everything else(which is crazy)

    His Career longevity,impact in European cup competitions,persistent knee injuries
    These are all blots




    We cant even compare CL performances between him and Ney because Fiorentina was such a crap relegation threatened team

    Put Neymar in the same scenario and hes doing nothing
    Like absolutely nothing
    Truly Great players can play and excell in any league or era

    Neymar was not one of them
    Just a generational great(top 5 of his era)
    With unprecedented privileges
    Doesn't have a marquee season like any real all timer should have




    Baggio was on track to be undisputed 1st of his IMO

    That 1985-1995 generation was STACKED
    And im really not one to overhype old school talents based on myths and legends

    Micheal Laudrup,stoichkov,Romario,stojkovic,savecevic,van basten,gullit,futre,francescoli,lothar matthaus

    Thats 10 offensive talents from 1 generation on par with Neymar JR
    Forget about roberto Baggio(Neymar is not there and never will be)



    Neymar being top 10 ever
    (In the history of football!!!!) is grade A bullshit
     
    leadleader repped this.
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    2014/15 - 2019/20
     
  13. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #238 Tropeiro, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Figo had 2-year peak, he would never touch Garrincha's peak, ever. Garrincha was the best dribbler and just had the best record of all time in the Brazilian team. Consistent threat in two different World Cup, the only to rivalize Pelé at his peak in the Brazilian NT and capable to monopolize the game with his talent (winning a World Cup in the process).

    Figo was a Ribery or Hazard level of player. He had some run around 2000 just like Ribery had around 2013 and that is it. He was not the go-to guy in Barcelona (it was Rivaldo), he was not in the Real (Zidane, Ronaldo all overshadowed him) and ended at Inter Milan with mediocre numbers. Wasteful Galáctico, mediocre at Sporting, mediocre in most of seasons at Real Madrid. He would never play in big teams of nowadays to be honest. Neymar yes had all timer potential, Figo never had. And yes Hazard probably has more world class seasons that Figo even had.

    Figo is overrated. Di Maria was more consistent than him to be honest. That is his level. You can argue that Di Maria is better than Neymar as well, nobody would believe tho.

    Out of the rest: Pointless stats and arguments. Baggio is more like what Dybala is now or was before Cristiano Ronaldo than what is Neymar. Put young Baggio at Santos he would never win the Libertadores and Santos would be vanished from the first division of Brazil.

    Baggio never confirmed his hype. He was always receiving criticism since the start of his career, even at his peak at Juventus, he lived with news of being replaced for unproductive and for being a luxury player. He also didn't live up to his expectations with his national team either.

    Baggio lived in the spotlight at the time although at Juventus in the so called best league of his time, which is why he is overrated. If Neymar knew how to manage his career, he would have a much better narrative today. In terms of level, I would always choose Neymar over Baggio and especially Figo to be the number 10 of Brazilian National Team. Of course Garrincha, Jairzinho and other wingers before Figo as well.

    That is my opinion:

    1º Neymar - Ronaldinho (2004-2007)
    1.5º Rivaldo, Baggio (Juventus)
    2º Del Piero (1996-1998) - Robben (Bayern) - Figo
    3º Salah - Hazard - Ribery

    I still put Figo alongside Robben and over the ones of Hazard or Ribery, but I'm not sure if he was really better than someone like Hazard.
     
  14. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Figo 45 Goals + 80 Assists in 249 Matches for Barcelona (0.50 Goal or Assist)
    Barcelona scored 2.10 Goals per match
    Figo involvement 0.50/2.10 = 23,80%

    Hazard 110 Goals + 92 Assists in 352 Matches for Chelsea (0.57 Goal or Assist)
    Chelsea scored 1.87 Goals per match
    Hazard involvement 0.57/1.87 = 30,48%

    Hazard at Chelsea > or = Figo at Barcelona, Hazard at Lille >> Figo at Sporting.

    Let's see now Belgium vs Portugal.
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The luxury player who dragged his team to a world cup final

    Yeah certainly he was luxury for any manager to have(in the literalist sense)

    What was Neymar doing in WC18?
    Leading in progressive passes!!!
    WTF is that bullshit

    Let him pick up the ball in the 88th miniute of a WC R16 and equalise and then score the winner in extra time

    Let him score the winner in the 88th miniute of a WC QF

    The winner in a WQ SF

    When did neymar ever in his life score impressive solo goals against big league teams?



    Vs Napoli 89/90
    Champions Serie A



    Vs Milan 92/93
    Champions Serie A


    Czechoslovakia
    Elo ranked 12th in the world



    Check his fantastic FK vs
    Dortmund 94/95( champions bundesliga)

    Check his fantastic FK vs PSG(2nd place ligue 1) in the UEFA cup 92/93

    The solo goal vs the Netherlands(ELO rank 5 in the world) in 1990

    Baggio made his career on moments like This
    No one scored goals like this in Serie A or even Europe during 1990-1994

    What the heck did neymar do against real madrid,atletico,Bayern munich,juventus,Argentina,Chile,Germany except redundant midfield dribbles and score well assisted tapin goals when the match was already over

    The solo goal vs Juventus in 2017=pre season friendly

    The goal vs Spain in 2013 confederations cup=world cup dress rehearsal

    Neymar scored only 1 impressive goal in his career vs a legitimately great team
    PSG 2017
    A standard freekick from 20 yards(the clutchness made it more impressive IMO not its technical difficulty)

    In la liga+CL its just simple well assisted goals by Suarez and Messi

    Goals any WC player with adequate positioning and off the ball movement could score

    Shevchenco could put away 95% of those chances in a OFF season


    Dybala if anything was closer to del piero in style
    Baggio at his very best is a class above
     
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #241 Tropeiro, Jul 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
    He didn't lead in progressive passes. But his overall attack contribution was bigger than Baggio in 1994 I'm pretty sure.

    [​IMG]
    Source: all statsbomb/fbref

    TOP10 in
    Goalscoring threat: Expected Non-Penalty Goals per 90 minutes, Shots total.
    Playmaking: Expected Assist per 90 minutes, Passes into Penalty Area, Shot-Creation action, Crosses
    Dribbling, Ball Carrying: Players Dribbled Past, Progressive Carrying Distance.
    All of you expect of an great player. ;)

    You talk about being clutch but actually Neymar produced 7 key passes (worth one full expected goal) against Belgium and he was denied from his own goal by the best save in all the tournament from the golden glove goalkeeper.

    That was on target:



    According 538 site, Neymar 2018 best match Johan Cruyff 1974. Diego Maradona 1986 also appeared.. and again Neymar wasn't in his best physical form.

    Also according 538 best match for Baggio 1994 performance is Bergkamp 1998 with Bebeto 1994 also appearing. That is how Baggio played in terms of influence on the pitch.

    Baggio would never reach Barcelona-Messi versatile level of attacking influence in his life, neither in some Portuguese League... his best form is more like a cross between Bebeto and Bergkamp.
    Figo would never dominated the game like Messi even in the USL Championship.

    Neymar's level of influence (dribbling, ball carrying, playmaking and goalscoring) at PSG in the Ligue 1 and UCL is the closest and probably the only player excluded Messi that resembles the greats of the past including Cruyff and Maradona... the virtuoso players of the past, also think Neymar at PSG resembles more your typical number 10, Messi even tho is capable, still looks more a supporting striker.

    Copy these videos before they go offline.



    Neymar is the final reason Brazil is still ranked as the best NT in his decade. He carried the team for the most part this decade and when some players reached their peak age Neymar was injured (2018 and 2019).
    Neymar is still 28 tho, he can improve his legacy.

    That he is still now compared to Figo is something that the destiny will take care of rectify, because he is much better than the Portuguese as an overall offensive player and also has more impact than players like Baggio or Ronaldinho (or Bebeto).
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    "In Brazil we are taught to care only about money, but in Europe they have a different mentality,”

    Unconsciously I made a career plan because I wanted to go to another big club in Brazil, and not to just play for sport. I was taught to go to who would pay me the most. That is the Brazilian way.

    “Look at Neymar. He moved to PSG just because of money. PSG gave everything to him, everything he wanted, and now he wants to leave before the end of his contract. But now is the time to give back, to show gratitude.

    “It’s an exchange, you see. Neymar needs to give everything he can on the pitch, to show total dedication, responsibility and leadership. The problem is that the establishment in Brazil has a culture of greed and always want more money. This is what we were taught and what we learned.”

    It is simply what he learned," added Juninho. "I need to differentiate between Neymar as a player and Neymar as a person. As a player, he is in the top three in the world, at the same level as Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi.

    “He is fast, tough, can score and make assists as a real number 10. But as a person, I think he is guilty because he needs to question himself and grow up. At the moment, however, he is just doing what life taught him to do.”


    Further expanding on Brazilian culture juninho says

    I need to believe,” he said. “I grew up in Recife, lived in Rio, Lyon, Qatar and the United States. The place I love the most is Brazil. I know it is hard at the moment but I am a father, a grandfather and I want a better world.

    “We have bad people, such as Bolsonaro’s family, but we have good people, too. We have wonderful doctors, teachers and artists. But we need to change as soon as possible. We have the resources to overcome this.”
     
  18. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar for Santos and Brazil (2009-2013) 17-21.5 years old.

    160 Goals + 80 Assists in 21403 minutes (=237.8 matches)

    1.01 Goals/Assists per 90 minutes.

     
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #244 Tropeiro, Aug 12, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
    SOFASCORE (Opta) had 17 dribbles for Neymar for some point in the match vs Atalanta, 5 minutes after they downgraded it to 16 and now it is 15.





    [​IMG]

    and people think that statistical companies are 100% honest and without interests. :ROFLMAO:
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #245 carlito86, Aug 12, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
    He dribbled like prime Ronaldo de lima and finished like Nicholas bendtner



    the first half had some really impressive runs but how could you be so wasteful at this level?
    Stagefright maybe

    Speaking exclusively to BI, Davis added: "Our research suggests that when under pressure, Neymar may fall back on his individual talent to make a play. For example, he takes more speculative shots or tries to take on a defender by dribbling, whereas passing to a teammate would be a better choice.
     
  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #246 Tropeiro, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
    He never dribbled like prime Ronaldo de lima, much less in this game.

    He had more or less the same tricks and creativity in this match but still with less ball control and with way worse explosiveness (in fact he looked slow in some of those runs). This volume is more about how less combative the defenders are these days compared to the old days. Before, he would be taken out of the game with some tough tackle too. And he would be wary of dribbling more like in some matches in the French League.

    I guess if prime R9 entered the field with the sole intention of breaking records of dribbles, he could complete 30 dribbles these days... I'm not joking. and more If Neymar was such a good dribbler as R9 he would have - or at least tried - dribbled past the goalkeeper to score his 1vs1 goal:



    instead of shooting the ball very wide... and especially since Neymar was never a prolific finisher in 1vs1 situations as he is known to miss some of those chances.

    BUT,


    - Neymar didn't really make many bad decisions tho, his decision making was optimal, and ended the game with 1 pre-assist and another assist.

    - That, yes, his finishing was very very precarious, but not from poor localizations, they were very clearly chances he missed (some of them created by his own)

    - His playmaking on point, def.. elite. Link up with his teammates. Elite ball progression too.



    In fact I want to see the Statsbomb stats to check his ball progression stats (passing and carrying).

    - Neymar carried PSG to the attack literally. Sarabia and Icardi are mediocre players... and without Verratti and Di Maria (elite Ball Progressors) he had all this responsibility on his shoulders.

    PD: Remember that Neymar scored the winning goals against Dortmund. He can be a clutch finisher too.
     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    If you dribble past the GK your chances to scoring increases a lot. Neymar's chances to score his 1vs1 here:

    [​IMG]
     
  23. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Why do you think prime Ronaldo de Lima was the better dribbler than Neymar including tight spaces?
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #249 Tropeiro, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
    Especially in tight spaces my friend. The thing would be more equated with space, but R9 would still win with his physique, greater acceleration and top speed and would transmit greater danger from anywhere.

    Neymar simply doesn't transmit the same panic to the defenders that the R9 transmitted, and it's not just because he could dribble the goalkeeper (and Neymar, as we saw, even in his peak dribbling he just doesn't have that confidence), which would make his expected goal conversion success in 1vs1 situations like yesterday from ~30% to a simple tap-in. (and that should be considered the most valuable dribble for the probability that you have to score a goal after your action), but it is that simply the type of dribbling that R9 did led to positions where the expected goal was greater or directly led to a shot.
    You performing dribblings in the midfield or on the side of the pitch doesn't have the same value in terms of improve your team expected goal possession and thus are simpler to perform.

    Neymar very different from what people think is not elite in small spaces, he is better as a speedster.

    *and especially when Neymar is a wasteful in 1vs1 situations like yesterday, it is not his first time missing that type of goal.
     
  25. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Tragic performance by Neymar in the UCL final. He is better player than Figo but if he can not win any significant trophy like UCL or World Cup and keep farming at Ligue 1, i dont think he will be placed above Figo.

    In that case, that is truly the most waste talent ever.
     

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