I wasn’t sure where the place was for this. This forum has been blurred beyond recognition recently as to what is soccer related and what is political related. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...racial-bias-study-pfa-runrepeat-a9592276.html This is a decent article highlighting a study done by a Danish research company and the Professional Footballers Association that seems to display racial bias in the commentary of matches across several leagues. I mean to anyone that has attended a professional sporting event or watched a professional in the past 75 years or so this should not be too surprising. Most who are recognize that we need to do individual work to overcome the systems which serve to re-inforce implicit biases most are walking through society with. It is however interesting to see data behind how these broadcasters will portray players of color versus white players which clearly serves to influence the general public. For example, “Focussing on different 15-minute segments surrounding 643 individual players of various race and skin tones, it was found that commentators are 6.59 times more likely to be talking about darker skin tone players when mentioning power, and 3.38 times more likely when discussing speed. The presence of bias meant that 86.76 per cent of all positive comments about power were aimed at darker skin tone players, with 84.17 per cent for speed. The study also found that commentators are 60.4 per cent more likely to be describing a player with lighter skin tone when talking about work ethic, with 62.6 per cent of all intelligence praise going to the same group of players. In comparison, 63.33 per cent of intelligence criticism was aimed at darker skin tone players. Two-thirds of all comments regarding the quality of play were also about lighter skin tone players, with 67.57 per cent of negative comments about darker skin tone players.” I think this moment is interesting in terms of how the media and fans will be treating athletes and specifically athletes of color. There is a lot of focus on kneeling for the national anthem or not. Personally, I support anyone who kneels for the national anthem in support of their black teammates and to bring greater attention to systemic racism in society. I am ambivalent towards those who don’t. But I think the conversation around that one act is small potatoes compared to the commentary, the dialogue, and the overall culture of sports fandom and commentary. We’re beyond a time where players are “shutting up and dribbling” and it will be interesting to see if some players of color being outspoken about systemic racism reinforces implicit bias in sports fandom and culture, or if it serves as a moment of reckoning for the culture to examine itself. As for me, I’m oddly optimistic. There are some that will never change. Some that will see the discussions at hand and view themselves as the victim. But overall from what I’ve seen in my community, from discussions in person and online, and the elevation of certain voices, and bringing difficult discussions to the table I think we are on the precipice of positive change. I’m all for it.
I'm shocked* that there is racism in football commentary and fandom. Black players will always be referred to in a context of being raw, physical talents who need to be "tamed", whilst White players will always elicit references to intelligence, work rate, discipline, etc. It's a sad state of affairs that's existed for far too long, but as is patently obvious just by reading this particular club's forum, it's not going away anytime soon. * Not shocked.
I am old enough to remember the NBA went through a similar phase and evolved out of it. As a little kid, I always heard that "no player was smarter or worked harder than Larry Bird" ... with all of the racial implications that came with that. Today ... in the NBA, there are smart guys, lazy knuckleheads and everything in-between ...they are just seen as players. Period. Promoting people of all races to coaching and front office/league office executive positions is a large part of driving that evolution, IMO. No reason soccer or any other sport or institution can't evolve in a similar fashion. [mod edit: fixed your quote function of hang's quote; no content edit]
Yeah, I'm old enough to remember (and hate) Larry Bird as well. But I think your diagnosis here is a bit off. I mean the current NBA fanbase is different, and while not without a fair share of idiots, a bit more evolved than other sports fanbases. Those who spoke about nobody being smarter or working harder that Larry Bird have gone a few different directions. Some have aged out of media. But a bigger section that crowd of fandom has become the "I don't watch the NBA, they don't play defense. I watch the NCAA they play the game right" crowd. As the white superstar was less prevalent in the NBA they mostly picked up their bags and left. (That said watch a Boston game with Heinson on the call, a Utah game, a Phoenix game you are gonna hear some batshit crazy stuff from the announcers). The NBA has done a better job of getting minorities to front office and league executive positions I'll give you that. But within the NBA their is a part of the fanbase that will always be turned off. The best players are practically naked for you to see all their strength and physical dominance. The NFL faces this a bit less as players are shielded behind so many pads full uniforms and helmets. The white American doesn't need to confront their discomfort when everyone is in uniform. This is in part why there isn't as much of a break between NFL and college football fandom in the same way as NBA and NCAA basketball. (Another reason of course is that black players don't have the power in the NCAA as the NCAA as an institution makes sure to continue to make money off of them, whereas in the NBA you see black players with the power creating super teams, demanding trades, etc). I guess what I am saying is that the NBA is an anomaly in the sports world. And even within the NBA the culture of fandom and commentary is nowhere near where it needs to be. It's a step in the right direction, and maybe overall American basketball is a bit better than soccer world wide but there is still a ways to go.
As a naive twentysomething I was struck by the coincidence that the three best white players in the NBA all played for the same team. It's little wonder that my racist dad was a Celtics fan. I was, naturally, a Lakers fan, since my favorite athlete was (and has been since I was six years old), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Now I'm a bit less naive. The fact that white athletes and black athletes of similar skills are treated differently by fans, journalists, officials, and league administrators is patently obvious. The NBA is better at this than probably any professional sports league in the world (at least that I follow). That's barely okay, and I guess at least it's nice that more than a few of us have realized the pathetic state of affairs.
As obvious as these findings are it's good to see the story is now being picked up at other outlets like New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage And FiveThirtyEight: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/soccer-commentary-is-full-of-coded-racism/ I'm sure that here, there, and everywhere we will have Boogaloo Bills claiming that the story is fake news. Even reading the comments on the initial article from The Independent that I linked you have people expressing disbelief that we'd be in this place in 2020, thinking that a magic wand has been waved and that racism and implicit bias are a thing of the past and we personally have no responsibility to address it. It'll be interesting to see if this leads to more minority voices in play by play or analysis roles and if and how this changes the presentation of these matches and games in other sports as well.
Boogaloo Bill can have a different connotation in this current climate... And for consideration...There were a lot of other factors involved too... but the Mason Rudolph - Myles Garrett fracas last year in the NFL would be interesting study along these lines. Right down to the punishments doled out by the league.
The NPR podcast "Only A Game" has been tackling this for the past few weeks but especially their episode last Friday (https://www.wbur.org/onlyagame) takes it on from a few more angles then just broadcasting. It's a great listen...
Speaking of implicit bias...find out a bit more about your own by going here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
I always liked Dr. J, myself, but I grew up in the Philly area. What always frustrated me is that the Celtics and the Sixers always kicked the snot out of each other in the semis, whereas the West champ had an easier path and won a lot of the finals as a result. But I get what folks are saying here. While the Doc didn't get the criticism as much, McGinnis did "for not playing defense". World Free too.... To be fair, thought, at the time, Schmidt used to get a lot of criticism from the local fans and he was only the greatest third baseman ever, and Tony Taylor was beloved. Tough town.
With full acknowledgement that my privilege is showing: I can't bring myself to read this even though I'm sure it's quite interesting. I get it: I'm subconsciously inherently racist because I'm white, but I'm at a saturation point with think pieces that point it out to me. As a friend in my (not-so-world-famous) group chat said today when this article and topic came up: "It seems many of us in our positions (affluent white left leaning folks who live in the 'burbs) need to shift from "Yeah, I know it's a thing, stop smashing it in my face" to "okay, let's do something about it." How can I, a sports-television viewer, influence sports-television producers to be less racist?
That's always been the trick. Seeing a problem is one thing. Finding a solution is a lot tougher. The truth is that it may just take time--and that's a difficult truth. It is difficult to control deeply ingrained feelings, that we may not even know where they come from. We can use our minds to fight it. But it's hard. I went to a school that's proud of our early integration, including the Cotton Bowl. Yet the first few Black (and it will take me a bit for my brain to catch up with the fact that this capitalization is the new style) QB's we had caught a lot of flack from the fans. Some of that was racist--some was not (for some odd reason, folks always love the backup). It took time for that to rightly change. That's carried over into the NFL, where one of our best Black QBs had a long career in the NFL--but as a fullback. I'd always wondered what he would have done given a chance. Some of this is a bit unfair too--there are assumptions being made along the lines of the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife"--and not by accident either. One of these I noted in a list a buddy of mine gave me regarding white supremacy--one of the questions was along the line "do you know what it feels lie to go into a grocery story and not be able to find the foods you like". The trick is that an issue like that isn't always due to the claimed cause. I thought about that one for a bit (after having an "angry" feeling about the question--to be honest). So, IRL, I cannot find all the foods I like in a grocery or restaurant store--foods that reflect my heritage, such as birch beer, or veal loaf. Or scrapple (most of the time). TastyKake baked pies. Poppyseed streusel. Black cherry wishniak. Amoroso hoagie rolls. I can get cheesesteaks and soft pretzels, but they are not the same. Real fried clams--with bellies. I could go on. It's complicated. But one answer? Teach your kids. It's slow, but eventually will work. So, it's complicated.
I mean, sure, I guess. And while Tony Taylor is on the Phillies Wall of Fame, it's Mike Schmidt who is rewarded by the organization with a posh gig doing commentary on (most) Sunday home games and puts forth the same kind of stereotypes, nonsense, and bias that the article refers too. These are in turn repeated by much of the fan base in the stadium and on talk radio speaking to how players don't play the game "the right way" anymore, which is essentially coded language against latinos and black players. As to LaMacchia's question, I'm not sure there is much we can do to really change the television/radio production. I think what we can do is start with just honest conversations with fans when they are spouting forth the same nonsense. "Why do you think player x is lazy, why do you think player x is selfish. No, not repeating the commentators talking points, why do YOU think this." I think we also don't tune in to sports talk radio, or the inflammatory argument shows like First Take, or any of that nonsense. There are better uses of time, and 98% of these hosts are clowns. We certainly don't give time and energy to jerkoffs like Dave Portnoy. It's a long road. It's not gonna change overnight, and it honestly may never change. But we can do our part to challenge the bullshit in the culture when we see it. kgilbert brought up Philly so I'll just make mention of an example when people would talk about Jimmy Rollins "not playing the game the right way, or being lazy." This was typical sports radio fodder. At tailgates and at the ballpark I would ask how someone who was the Phillies all time hits leader, all time triples leader, and top 5 in doubles could be considered lazy? You get those numbers by legging out base hits and being aggressive and taking the extra base. Some would push back, inebriated, others would shut up. But, Philly is more a racist sports town than it is a tough one. I mean let's look no further than the city's incredible boxing heritage. Maybe the greatest to come out of Philly was Smoking Joe Frazier. a gold medalist, heavyweight champion of the world, and participant in some of the most legendary fights ever. But what boxer has the hearts of Philadelphia, and a statue.....a fictional white boxer named Rocky Balboa.
For the record, Rollins ended up becoming quite beloved. One of his trademarks was that he would spend a fair bit of time before games signing autographs--even on the road (I know--I have one--and Utley? Not so much). Frazier? Don't ask anyone from Philly about Ali. It's always been Joe. And he has a statute as well, since 2015. Long over due, of course. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/smokin-joe-frazier-statue-xfinity-live/2017086/ But I mean if you want to talk about racism in Philly sports, you don't have to go much further than Dick Allen--though even that started changing by the end of his career.
I think this is a blind-spot of mine. I go out of my way to avoid sports punditry - save for this place - because I can't fathom the exact thing you say above: How can a person who holds records for extra-base hits be lazy? I think it's generally well known that I despise Sportsfans© and don't share many of their mindsets. It's a personality flaw of mine, I'll admit to it. But good Gawd, do I miss MLS Soccer.
I agree with you on Dick Allen of course. I don't want to turn this whole thing into a Philly thread cause that misses the larger points actually discussed here and we risk entering Timonesque levels of talking around the actual point. I do though need to push back on the Rollins comment though. I've been a Sunday season ticket holder for the Phillies since 2007. I've attended 15-25 games a year in that time. Outside of 2007 Rollins was never appreciated commensurate to the level of his production/importance to the team. In retirement, everything is glossed over a bit (likewise for Howard). Having been inside the stadium for hundreds of games during Rollins career there was always a "why can't he be more like Larry Bowa." mindset in Philadelphia fans despite the fact that he was better at every aspect of the game. The reason's were/are obvious.
I'll not derail further except to note that you also need to take the blue collar nature of many/most Philly fans into account. A guy like Bowa would always be appreciated due to that--like Clarke over a McLeish (also a player accused of being "lazy" by the fanbase). And I'm jealous that you get to see them play so much.... If I get one Phillies game in a season, home or away, I'm lucky. But Mrs. KG and I did get to go to Game 1 of the NLDS in 2011. My dad owed me one (he'd promised to take me to the World Series in 1964). We were in Philly for my folks memorial service, so we had to go, using some money he'd left us. I will make one point that just occurred to me this morning. One will note that the Blue Jackets hired Jean-Luc Grand-Pierre as one of the studio announcers. He's been a good choice. I enjoy his commentary. [I'll also note that the Jackets pretty much have always had a Black player or two--it's always been seen as normal around here.] And, of course, Dante was on Crew broadcasts. It's a place to start. (and, for Hang, Gary Mathews was on Phillies broadcasts for years)
The "blue collar" talking point is extremely problematic and has been used for years (decades?) to separate white athletes from black athletes and justify prejudiced fan behavior and attitudes. What's most bizarre about it is how it seems that the black athlete is incapable of "blue collar" work despite the fact that many black men and women are doing just that all around the country. What's most depressing is that some fans don't even think black men and women are worthy of "blue collar" work and view placing those attributes on men and women of color as a threat to their very existence.
I do understand your point and there's a lot of truth to it--but I also pointed out the example where both athletes were white. Mike Schmidt got criticized for it as well. So there's some truth to it. I'm not sure about your second paragraph, though. In my admittedly limited experience in a blue collar job (shop janitor at Sears Auto for a couple of years while in school), we had a rather integrated shop. But that was just my own experience, albeit almost 50 years ago.