2020 MLS is Back Tournament

Discussion in 'Houston Dynamo' started by newtex, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. slycat

    slycat Member

    Jul 12, 2008
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Minor updates on teams in Houston's group.

    LAFC - Vela is leaning towards not playing in the tournament

    LAG - Dos Santos is having surgery and will not play
     
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  2. Westside Cosmo

    Westside Cosmo Member+

    Oct 4, 2007
    H-Town
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Juve - is this you?

     
  3. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Updated:

    MLS is Back, 2020
    First Round
    Times are CDT

    Wednesday, July 8
    (A) Orlando v. Miami 7:00 pm ESPN
    (A) Nashville v. Chicago 9:30 pm ESPN

    Thursday, July 9
    (A) NY City v. Philadelphia 8:00 am ESPN
    (C) Montreal v. New England 7:00 pm TUDN/Twitter(English)
    (B) Dallas v. Vancouver 9:30 pm PPD

    Friday, July 10
    (C) Toronto v. DC United 7:00 pm ESPN
    (B) Seattle v. San Jose 9:30 pm ESPN

    Saturday, July 11
    (E) Atlanta v. NY Red Bulls 7:00 pm FOX/TUDN
    (E) Cincinnati v. Columbus 9:30 pm FS1/TUDN

    Sunday, July 12
    (D) Kansas City v. Minnesota 7:00 pm ESPN
    (D) Salt Lake v. Colorado 9:30 pm ESPN

    Monday, July 13
    (F) Los Angeles v. Houston 7:00 pm FS1/TUDN
    (F) LA Galaxy v. Portland 9:30 pm FS1/TUDN
     
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  4. Westside Cosmo

    Westside Cosmo Member+

    Oct 4, 2007
    H-Town
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I want esteemed epidemiologist @juvechelsea to weigh in on his handicapping of the chances this tourney gets pulled off

    BTW, while all of the players are complaining about box lunches (Omar Gonzales was actually in Toronto when complaining not Orlando) and all sorts of other things related to the "dangerous and unsafe situation", they should be reminded that they could have gone into the bubble earlier and for a longer lead-up but their union thought it was too long - I think Bedoya called it a nice prison.

    So if this all falls apart, everyone shares some blame, not just a simplistic MLS is greedy/Garber is Dr. Evil/Trump is to blame for Florida stuff
     
  5. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do not assume much in life, but I would gather that MLS league office is paying for the hotel stay down in Orlando and thus paying for food and lodging as one complete bill towards Disney Co.
    So with that in mind, any player that does not like his room service meals or box lunches served to him FOR FREE. He can take his cleats and go jump off a cliff! I mean, what kind of man, certainly a younger man, complains about free food?!?
    If one travels the world, one can witness how in most other nations, free anything is accepted with humility. For it could be worse. I.e. no food. Which there are many of those in our nation Omar G.
     
  6. Westside Cosmo

    Westside Cosmo Member+

    Oct 4, 2007
    H-Town
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Part of the issue is that they didn't have a fully signed CBA so if they didn't agree to play in the tourney, they could have been locked out with no pay. So the compromise was agree to play tourney + whatever games they could play later and get paid almost in full if I recall (I may be wrong but it was a pretty high percentage). Now they don't like it and just yell about "health and safety" and "working conditions".

    its certainly not ideal, but its not exactly dangerous either.
     
  7. Penwyth

    Penwyth Member

    Mar 10, 1999
    Earth
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does Houston automatically win back El Capitan this year since the Dallas Burn have dropped out of the MLS is Back tournament?
     
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  8. quiznatodd_bidness

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Apr 14, 2020
    there’s supposedly going to be a regular season after this but who knows. It actually may not have even been decided in this tournament since there was no guarantee the teams would face each other.
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
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  10. quiznatodd_bidness

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Apr 14, 2020
    I think it’s an interesting distinction to make that MLS is with drawing FCD from the tournament. Seems like it came from the top.
     
  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    The MLS athletes are probably generally the fittest athletes who could deal with covid. However dealing with covid is a non-zero risk for all age groups, even athletes. Even a “mild” case is nasty like the flu. And you don’t know that the risks played out right until it’s over. We don’t know that when they take the risks.

    The pretense among conservatives is “risk groups” are selected against in Darwinian terms or have personal issues and deserve it. This is self absorption as policy. There are an amount of risk group athletes who play MLS, however. Morris has type 1 diabetes. I saw an article where 10% of Type 1 hospitalizations from this result in death. Stadhujar, Lampson, and Odoi-Atsem have had cancer and may be immune compromised.

    Young players are probably good health risks but they don’t coach themselves. The coaches and staff may be significantly older and be at risk; SJ had that coach have a stroke earlier this year. Ditto refs, broadcast crews, stadium personnel and the others necessary to carry out games.

    You see with Dallas that once one team member gets it it can just pinball through the whole team like nothing. They may be distanced at times but not for practices, games. It sounds cute to talk about the hotel but they still huddle up for instruction and whatnot. Surely you are familiar with teammates getting you sick even in normal times.

    There are also the spillover issues where all these risk takers then go home to their families and can spread it there, including to older and riskier family, neighbors, friends. This does not take place in a vacuum.

    Setting aside the health issues, there is a sporting integrity issue involved by the games doubling as season games. If this was an exhibition and teams could skip, then it’s really a choice. You now have Dallas falling 3 games behind the league because you forced a tournament prematurely and they couldn’t safely fulfill the schedule. Worse, they got about half their team sick trying to do so. Montreal and other teams seem to have issues as well that may disrupt the tournament and season by extension.

    Based on NWSL, I expect they will simply plunge forward at all costs. This is basically your boss says you are essential and you will show up for your check. This is basically your boss says I may have to close the business if you don’t show up. There is an element of voluntarism. There is also a power and information discrepancy. Your boss knows, you don’t, whether this is actually economically necessary. You may indeed want/need the check but you may do so against your better judgment. For example, I am glad my boss lets me work from home and align my judgment with my work. That is not an available choice here but you also have to ask whether a tournament that gets players and others sick is wise or the smartest option economically. The constant false starts are not economically efficient. Flying teams in who have to quit is inefficient. If they have to call the whole thing off, that would be an enormous waste.

    Last, the Astros canceled practice today because their test results weren’t back yet. I assume that reflects the fact they are getting results from the same labs dealing with surrounding reality. There is a question whether such selfish use of tests in a crisis period is wise demand upon on resources. There is also a question whether if Florida gets worse, it’s a wise idea to be there or to be adding to their burden.

    Regarding the risks Trump deems “harmless,” this thing kills approximately 2% of cases, and only 10% or so are truly asymptomatic over time (as opposed to at test time).
     
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    The last cited number I heard was 10 Dallas players sick. The implication to me was it was just ping ponging through the team. Would ping pong through any USL or roster filler they called up. Might then ping pong through the opposing teams.

    There is also the integrity issue of Dallas is made to play short handed and take lumps that count for season standings. Or conversely other teams might argue it’s unfair they get to quit for being sick. What if a normal MLS game is double or triple tempo, CCL, USOC. Under those circumstances, you play who ya got. MLS usually only allows some slight loans.

    To me it’s that Dallas threatens the whole card house if it spreads from them outwards. In epidemiology terms, you just quarantined the infected.

    However, if enough people are getting infected, we should take a step back and say, woah, if you’re saying the sick are to be taken seriously, and this is resulting in dozens of cases, and you acted like a couple in March was enough to stop play, how does this not trigger the same standard?

    Also, Westie likes to hide behind appearances, but testing is a lagging indicator and testing imperfect, and you don’t know for a fact someone tested 2 days ago is fine now. It’s a college try to do your best. Reality is if 2 Dallas guys have it one day, 6 the next, 10 the next........if anyone has it, you have a potential domino issue.

    I also feel like we are imitating leagues whose underlying nations did the hard work to make it safe and deserve the games. We are on the exact opposite tack, virus on the loose and just saying everyone pretend it’s normal and show up for work and play the virus lottery. This is not a considered policy response. This is declaring business as usual and taking your lumps.
     
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Also worth noting that based on the TV schedule at least one reason this may be happening is it will make ESPN and Fox rapidly televise their quota of network games for the season - and then some, and they can probably cash their full TV checks. Conversely the cable sports stations are probably giddy to have something besides cornhole or Korean baseball to show.
     
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  14. quiznatodd_bidness

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Apr 14, 2020
    the quotas are a big deal but I think MLS’ relationship with ESPN plays the biggest role with this. We keep hearing over and over again “the next TV deal is critical to MLS”. I think this tournament is more to show value to ESPN and Disney rather than just about getting play resumed. MLS absolutely intends on going into the next rounds of negotiations saying “we gave you programming when there was no NBA, NHL or MLB, we gave business and publicity to your resorts, it’s your turn to repay us in the form of more TV revenue.” Also whatever Fox carries is just a bone being thrown for the current deal. I don’t see much of a future for them with soccer outside of World Cups.
     
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  15. Westside Cosmo

    Westside Cosmo Member+

    Oct 4, 2007
    H-Town
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    gee Juve, a for-profit enterprise trying to provide product to buyers - what a concept!!!!!
     
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  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    It's supposed to be 54 total games, most of which (now that I look at a TV schedule) are ESPN-broadcast. I think it's ESPN-TUDN-Fox in that order. It was not lost on me that they picked this Disney complex to hold the event. I was thinking hmmmm Fox doesn't have anything to say on this? What will Fox say when they have to describe where the event is. (I say that, but the networks have gotten more professional in recent years, willing to let you know that the next game in a series is on y network at x time.)

    I am not sure what the current TV deal is or how this breakdown correlates. I just watch the games. Broadcasting the sport does seem to run in cycles of passion and disinterest, spending and thrift. Fox at one point was accumulating almost everything but the USNT. Now they're heading towards having just that. Which is interesting because a lot of the on air talent flowed over there.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Try a for profit enterprise prodding its players to come back so they can fulfill a vendor contract, and cash the lucrative checks, at risk to the employees. One of those teams then gets 10 players and 1 coach sick and has to drop out.

    Europe has significantly lower unemployment and economic distress right now because many of the countries are paying employee payroll directly, removing the incentives to lay off workers to save $, as well as the pressure to open up to have income to pay payroll. We meanwhile have $1.3b in PPP sitting unclaimed. That's how well thought out our ideas are; we can't fully expend a program budget.

    This country has lurched right for a few years, and so a chunk of this country cannot think out of the box, and only conceptualizes this as public health vs reopening. Irony is HEB has probably made money hand over fist by being the prepared business that adapts as opposed to crying about how they want to go back to the way things were done. Irony is the countries that pay their people directly can shutdown longer and get back to business with a purer conscience. We are not the template for this situation, not economically, not public health wise. This is basically the Hoover administration dealing with the Great Depression. When we are done, this will be the object lession in "how not to do it," capitalism or not.
     
  18. Penwyth

    Penwyth Member

    Mar 10, 1999
    Earth
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't be dissing Korean baseball. This is Kiwoom's year baby. Heroes all the way to the series behind the bat of Jung-Hoo Lee.
     
  19. quiznatodd_bidness

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Apr 14, 2020
    Make no mistake Fox isn’t happy about this. They had no say in the implementation of the tournament and they had issues subleasing (im not sure if that’s correct use for TV rights) games from ESPN. Apparently Fox only spends about $75k on an MLS broadcast when ESPN will spend about $125k a game for this tournament.
     
  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #45 juvechelsea, Jul 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
    I watched parts of a about three games before giving up on it. I actually thought it was a pretty good level. I found the way we were showing the games to be distracting and annoying. A lot of interview guests droning on over the baseball. I don't know teams or players and am trying to get a foothold of interest in what I am seeing. Hard to do that when it's like blah blah blah and the game in a square in the corner. To me I want it to be more like EPL where they are cheerleading that league and its players and you can absorb into something new. As opposed to let me show you KBO at 1 am but spend a bunch of time talking MLB throughout it.

    The only interesting one was Trevor Bauer who gave a fascinating interview about how he uses technology to work on his game. Like he tapes pitchers whose pitches he wants to learn. Then tapes himself trying to throw the pitch. Iteratively sees if he can make it work. If he does it appears in the spring.

    (It did occur to me that woah dude you realize that this internal club video technology you're using is then the same thing the Astros are using for trashcangate. I do feel like we went too far, live video tech being used to steal real time signs and then communicate it to players, but it also sounds like "Karate is for defense only....")
     
  21. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Tuesday updates. I'm sure more will be coming:

    MLS is Back, 2020
    First Round
    Times are CDT

    Wednesday, July 8
    (A) Orlando v. Miami 7:00 pm ESPN
    (A) Nashville v. Chicago 9:30 pm PPD

    Thursday, July 9
    (A) NY City v. Philadelphia 8:00 am ESPN
    (C) Montreal v. New England 7:00 pm TUDN/Twitter(English)
    (B) Dallas v. Vancouver 9:30 pm CANCELLED

    Friday, July 10
    (C) Toronto v. DC United 7:00 pm PPD
    (B) Seattle v. San Jose 7:00 pm ESPN

    Saturday, July 11
    (E) Atlanta v. NY Red Bulls 7:00 pm FOX/TUDN
    (E) Cincinnati v. Columbus 9:30 pm FS1/TUDN

    Sunday, July 12
    (C) Toronto v. DC United 9:00 am ESPN
    (D) Kansas City v. Minnesota 7:00 pm ESPN
    (D) Salt Lake v. Colorado 9:30 pm ESPN

    Monday, July 13
    (F) Los Angeles v. Houston 7:00 pm FS1/TUDN
    (F) LA Galaxy v. Portland 9:30 pm FS1/TUDN
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i would have the same question for MLB but when the tournament is over what is the plan for games in canada? they have a travel ban through at least 7/21. I can't see that being dropped based on objective numbers.

    i know the employees of canadian teams likely have long term visas. but would they let opposing teams cross? one thing orlando does address is this immigration issue. but if the idea is orlando is a few games then back to normal, what about the canadian teams? will they stay here? that would seem easier than going there and being told no.

    also, not sure if canada (or each province) has cleared public sporting events. not even sure that is true of all the states with domestic teams, for that matter.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-u-s-may-have-trouble-restarting-canadas-sport/

    i've basically said we shouldn't be playing, but let's say you wanted to, how? there's a reason NBA decided orlando for the balance. whatever you think of the health situation or policy wiseness, florida is allowing games. what is MLS' plan? if they thought this would be a bridge back to normal, reality has shot that to heck.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #48 juvechelsea, Jul 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
    https://www.chicagofirefc.com/post/...urnament-match-against-nashville-sc-postponed

    "Since arriving in Orlando, five Nashville players have had confirmed positive tests for COVID-19. Two of the players received the confirmed positive results during the weekend and three players received confirmed positive results last night. In addition, four other Nashville players have received inconclusive test results, and require further testing.

    MLS will continue to evaluate Nashville SC’s participation in the MLS is Back Tournament following the results of additional testing."

    https://www.dcunited.com/post/2020/07/07/dc-united-schedule-update

    "...due to Toronto’s delayed arrival into Orlando."

    to me if you have one guy showing up the first day of training sick, identified at a medical before he meets anyone, fine, but you have a dallas problem once they are congregating with any meaningful number sick. it ping pongs around, 2 becomes 6 becomes 10. they play another team, same thing. this is why even 1 positive test shut down the league before. the businessmen grasp this which is why westie's theory then gets used. it's ok to risk the obvious domino fall "because no big deal."

    as i said yesterday, the flaws in westie logic are (1) mild is nasty (2) death is possible (3) some players are immunocompromised (morris shouldn't be there) (4) various secondary and tertiary people necessary to make games happen may be older and risk groups eg coach at FCD who tested positive along with players. it's not just players in the abstract showing up to play pick up, and even then they would go home to families.
     
  24. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What must be recalled is that the lifespan of a professional athlete is very small. Depending on the mileage placed on the body of the athlete, the span can be even more narrow to just a few seasons in their respective sport. Such if life for NFL players. NHL players just crank up the pills and accept the back end of their life will be shitty, legs that ache and fists that are calcified.
    The mega theme is that with our sport, our MLS players, many have a back ground where they can fall back on a life that is beyond professional soccer. Which is great for them. However, there are the other players in MLS that come from upbringings where they must secure a good paycheck now, before their window to command a paycheck from being a very good player of soccer closes.
    Bottom line is that an NBA or MLB player can speak up on not playing in these return to the game tournaments, as they command a much higher salary compared on average to MLS players and can fall back on such power of their combined status as such pro athletes. For MLS players, if the boss says you are playing, for many, the response is, "Can do Commish!"
     
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  25. *rey*

    *rey* Member+

    Feb 22, 2006
    Houston
    maaaaan, if i was a baller and knew i had a good 10+ years left in this game there's no way i would participate in this MLS tournament. especially knowing that covid might fk up your lung/breathing functions even after you recover. i would opt for that elective surgery that i had been putting of until the off-season.

    a bit different from places like Spain, Germany, and England that have been trending down. we're asking these guys to go to Florida where things have been trending up.
     

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