The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm guessing the fans of Bury, to name one, wish more people cared abut the financial health of the team and the league...
     
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  2. Nobody cares about the health of the leagues in Europe as the clubs arenot there for the leagues, but the leagues for the clubs. If the current league fails, financially or in serving the clubs, they can simply start a new league.
    Can't be done by the mls clubs ......something with golden handcuffs.
     
    M repped this.
  3. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #26928 Crawleybus, Jun 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
    Good lord how exciting you must find the futures market! The adrenalin fuelled feeling of the dollar gaining 0.01% of value against the yen! There are PLENTY of better run clubs a rung below Bury and more deserving than Bury to replace them! I know - why don't we limit the multi billion spending on Formula 1 teams? That way none will ever go bust again! Perhaps limit the speed of the cars to 30 miles an hour too so that everybody gets a go at winning? Not very exciting perhaps but at least it keeps everybody safe no? Maybe the Premier League winners should be the club that saves the most money? That way they can all be safe! Let's not bother with actually kicking a ball at all, we can just toss a coin instead, add to that no relegation and the fans can all breathe easy knowing they'll never go down, everybody then stays rich and gets a go at winning! How exciting it will be!
     
  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I should have been clearer, I meant the teams in the league, not the league itself. If a majority of the teams in the league (such as in the Championship) are losing money its an indicator to be careful what you're getting yourself into and to be sure that you can support being there.
     
  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What the hell are you ranting about? Like it or not, financial concerns have been a discussion point in this thread, and some new data came out that I was providing to interested parties. If you don't like the subject matter, the exit is right over there. I'm sure you can find a SB Nation blog that will satisfy your rah rah attitude without taxing your mental faculties. You aren't contributing much to this thread anyway.
     
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  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bury's supporters didn't deserve what happened to them and it could have happened to any team.

    They've done that.

    Mercedes and Ferrari have been operating with budgets of around $400 million.

    2021 will see a budget cap of $145 million, dropping to $135 million in 2023.

    Well, they've done their best to stop people getting faster.

    The Williams-Renault driven by Nigel Mansell in 1992 was a 3.5 litre V10. The 2020 Mercedes AMG Petronas is a 1.6 litre V6, limited to 15,000 rpm.
     
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  7. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The same thing happened at Maidstone that happened to Bury, my mate was a season ticket holder at the time and has been ever since! This is not a competition to see who is the richest! If that's how you get your kicks then you need to look elsewhere! If your football club isn't pushing itself to its financial limit in its attempt to win the league then it's not trying hard enough! I couldn't give a monkeys how much money resides in Stamford Bridge as long as they win the league! I mean how 'boring' do you want your football league to be?
     
  8. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do care about the financial health of the league as a whole, I wish there was stricter governance, along with rules about how and when you can actually take money out of a football club. In a perfect world I would want to see football clubs (on both sides of the Atlantic) run essentially as non-profits And although I don't know any Bury fans personally I do know what it feels like to lose your team and it sucks. Whether that's because of movement, contraction, or because you over spent chasing the ring it sucks.

    But this reeks of just a talking point sent out without any real thought about it.

    The argument I see is, lower division English clubs are having trouble, pro/rel must be the reason so it's wrong.

    Which then leads to something along the lines of "what about Bury". So what about Bury? How did pro/rel cause their fall, and how would "our" system would have saved it. I'm all ears.
     
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  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you look at my prior posts I've said previously, multiple times, that pro/rel isn't the cause of many of the English issues, but its not solving them either.

    But specific to this line of discussion, all I did was provide some interesting financial data since finances have been a topic in this thread. Crawleybus then went off, like being concerned about finances meant you weren't a real fan and nobody should care about that. That's when I pointed out Bury fans probably wished more people cared about it.
     
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  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Ah, yes, Bury.again. Now remind me how many lower division professional teams in closed leagues US have disappeared in the last 15 or so years.
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Bury got expelled from the Football League as a consequence of their inept financial management. Why would fans of better run teams in lower leagues than Bury deserve to have their team excluded from the league? Why do you believe fans of Bury are the only ones that matter in this equation?
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Both Nottingham teams have had dodgy owners and there's not a lot you can do as long as the potential owner hasn't got a criminal record that would prevent him from owning a business.

    Pro/rel is a great system but it has its flaws and the thing that's really exposed those flaws is money, in particular the difference in revenue between the different divisions. This has led to a lot of speculative investments and business plans that depend on promotion.

    In England 3 teams get promoted from League One to the Championship and from the Championship to the Premier League but it's getting to the point where maybe 12 -15 teams budget on the expectation that they'll win promotion.

    Take Mansfield Town last season. They gambled on maintaining the momentum they gained from winning back their place in the EFL but missed out, had to slash their budget and now sit in 21st place in L2.

    Bury won promotion. Unfortunately for them the revenue difference between League One and League Two is not that great which, combined with a relatively small and inelastic fan base, meant they couldn't meet the financial ambitions the owners had set for them (read: plucked from thin air) and were abandoned.
     
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  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bury got expelled from the Football League as a consequence of THEIR OWNERS' inept financial management.

    I'm guessing that you don't regard fans as being part of a club. That's very major league of you.
     
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  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    That's a pretty disingenuous explanation of Bury's situation.
     
  15. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Nice non-sequiter.

    You also didn't answer my questions regarding fans of teams in lower leagues than Bury.
     
  16. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    JFC people. I didn't say anything in this sub-thread about the current financials being a reason why pro/rel should be ended in England. I provided some current information, making no claims about it, and then somebody else jumped in and ranted and I pointed out why financials might be important to fans of an EFL team. Story. End of. Go somewhere else to grind your axes.
     
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  17. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    So instead of doing your normal "hit and run", how about providing some context with financial information about lower division closed league US teams? Or, alternatively, go and grind your axe somewhere else. Really, your act is pretty transparent.
     
  18. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Of course 12-15 teams budget for promotion, if it was Chelsea I would INSIST on it! Those that go up are 'the winners', those that go down are 'the losers' whoever goes down gets replaced by 'the winners' from the league below, that's how it works and that's what makes it exciting. Bury are one of 'the losers' there are 'winners' below them ready and perhaps more deserving ready to take their place. Having games that have this kind of thing riding on them certainly increases the joy, the disappointment and the tension - exciting isn't it? It's the consequences that makes football so exciting and creates the passion, it's about winning the league not about the clubs finances.
     
  19. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See, and your explanation following about the teams you support/did support/don't anymore FOLLOWS what you've said here.

    THANK YOU. We've asked several times for folks to connect the dots but for some reason they refuse. Like it's an affront to them as a fan to explain because without the line being drawn between the dots ... they don't make sense.

    Again, THANK YOU. Seriously.

    I will comment on this though, as this is a franchise that sits in the "conversation zone" so to speak. I propose that PETCO wouldn't exist if the Padres were in a pro/rel system (everything else being equal). That lovely ball park wouldn't be there at all (or say PNC in Pitt, or that barn up in Wisconsin).

    Sure, there's two sides to it. Stadiums and the like are the trade off fans get for a shit team year in and year out. But looking across soccer and the pro/rel landscape ... this "something to play for" has perpetuated a lack of infrastructure for clubs that could actually end up helping them out.

    Surface level here ...

    ... it's weighed against not having anything this season. Sure, there are risks and potential "damage" done to the product. None of which are comparable to simply not having a competition of any kind. For MLS that is the worst case scenario.

    Even the Bayern/Dortmund match was drug due to the lack of fans and how playing it in this manner essentially gave Munich an unfair advantage in all but wrapping the title with that win. That yellow wall matters. It wasn't there. I don't see anything about the Orlando Tournament for MLS being worse than the outcome of that.

    Sure, and I don't dismiss that at all. Which as you stated, the latter scenario isn't awful and helps the USL case actually. I mean, just 5yrs ago if you'd have stated that ownerships would be doing this in the 2nd division of soccer in the US you'd have been laughed out of the room.

    Austin Bold fits into the exact same category, but replace MiLB stadium with CotA.

    This is something that most on the pro/rel side simply won't discuss in a non-biased manner. OF COURSE there's plenty tied to the benefit of MLS speculation both directly and indirectly. Though, the speculation of "top tier" is the driver of romance in pro/rel no? I mean we're constantly told that dream! That doesn't however, de-legitimize the investment in lower tiers. IMO I don't think it should asterisk the USL investment outside of blatant up front "for MLS" outfits.

    Those of us here in a little place called: REALITY

    Though the correlation is pretty .. yeah
     
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  20. Indeed.
    But that's also my reason to be anti a competition without home and away matches against all teams as it gives an unfair advantage to teams lucky not to have to go to their bogey stadiums.
     
    M repped this.
  21. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know bro that looks like an awesome playoff battle. Just saying many closed leagues with playoffs would drool over standings like that.
     
  22. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    WTF/ Yes, without P/R there's no point in trying to win the competition you exist to play in. Olympic soccer? Pointless. Tour de France? Too much work. Indian Premier League cricket? Yawn.

    SMH
     
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  23. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    JasonMa repped this.
  24. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Your examples are bizarrely irrelevant to a discussion of minor league football. SMH.

    Yes, of course it means something. But the existence of pro/rel adds an ingredient to competition that is simply absent in closed minor leagues.
     

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