You did know van basten and batistutas time together(in the same league)literally lasted less than 2 seasons? During which time batistuta was a 22-24 year old man playing for a Fiorentina that finished 12th and 16th in respective seasons Fiorentina were actuallly demoted to Serie B in his second season How would a 23 year old van basten fare in early 90s Serie A for a relegation threatened team? I dont know and you don't know I do know this though: In 1991/92 and 1992/93 combined van basten scored 27 non penalty goals+8 assists in 46 appearances:0.76 https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco-van-basten/elfmetertore/spieler/74471 https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_van_Basten During the same time frame batistuta Scored 29 non penalty goals+13 assists in 59 appearances:0.71 https://www.transfermarkt.com/gabriel-batistuta/elfmetertore/spieler/5959 Bearing in mind as previously mentioned batistuta played in one of those seasons for a relegation zone team. And was only 23 years old which is at least 4 years before strikers generally peak It is true Batistuta had greater contributions for the NT pre 1994 playing a starring role in both Argentina's copa America wins But then all his ballon dor rankings came post 1994 which is obviously logical seeing as he entered his prime around this age (and the copa America isnt something anyways that has really held any sort of historical significance) i have no doubt batistuta would've scored considerably more had he actually been in his prime during the early 90s Van basten wasn't a generational outlier in terms of open play goals in Serie A That facts dont back that up Penalties accounted for 26% of his Serie A haul For Cristiano ronaldo in la liga it's 19%: 61 pen out of 311 goals For Alan shearer in the premier league it's 20% 52 pen out of 260 goals For Lionel Messi It's 13% 55 pen out of 438 goals Michel platini an attacking midfielder who played in an even lower scoring era as van basten never dropped below 14 Serie A non penalty goals in a single season between 1983-85 Van basten a striker never exceeded 16 non penalty Serie A goals platini in 83/84 did in fact score 17 non penalty Serie A goals Careca a striker/forward scored 18 non penalty goals in Serie A 88/89 Don't tell me its difficult when numerous examples can be brought to the fore Van bastens other scoring competitors like vialli and serena were not special or even among the best of their day Serena and vialli never top scored in the UEFA cup or European cup Had a combined total of 21 NT goals Van basten wasn't exactly competing against Hugo Sanchez or zlatan ibrahimovic for the capocannoniere Or any other striker with some remote form of continental pedigree (voller and careca aside) A GOAT level scorer in his prime cannot be outscored by aldo Serena Not even once It can't happen The idea that van basten in top leagues was a comparable scorer to gerd muller,Cristiano,Messi,puskas is astonishingly laughable Van basten was a very good league striker in Serie A Among the best handful of strikers every season One with spectacular goals but not spectacular enough to overhaul the fact he Wasnt remarkable at assisting,ball carrying or scoring solo goals And it has to be emphasised van basten under the 21st century microscope would be viewed in exactly that manner Van basten has achievements beyond the league that separate him for this category of merely good strikers No doubt about that But it is a myth that van basten with modern day training techniques would be some league goal machine akin to Messi and Ronaldo Nothing he did in Serie A validates this For me to even begin entertaining that viewpoint van basten would have to be at least a ×3 capocannoniere leading vialli/Serena/voller in goals with at least a 5 open play goal margin Season in season out Van basten today and in his Milan guise who be a more aesthetically pleasing version of Robert lewandowski or prime Andriy shevchenco More injury prone and more clutch perhaps in tournaments But not more than this
IFFHS also put Stanley Matthews in the 11th spot...Too high for me. I prefer the two rankings made by FourFourTwo in the last five years: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/fourfourtwos-100-greatest-footballers-ever-no1-diego-maradona of July 17 1- Maradona 2- Messi 3- Pelé 4- Cruyff 5- Cristiano Ronaldo or https://www.fourfourtwo.com/gallery/50-greatest-footballers-all-time of March 2020 1- Messi 2- Maradona 3- Pelé 4- Cruyff 5- Cristiano Ronaldo
You know Pele destroyed the best teams of Italy in a way prime Maradona never got close to doing in Serie A see what he was doing to legendary inter and Benfica sides And tell me maradona could ever do this Pele was more unplayable against CL winners Benfica than Maradona was against the worst teams in Serie A history ( vs Lazio where he required a hand ball to score a rare Serie A hattrick) Maradona never did this or got close to doing this in Official club matches Friendlies Or even training matches Even if you say maradona WC 86 reached the highest peak over 7 matches Pele was at least one of the best performers in world cup history and his copa America 59 is at least 3 levels above any thing maradona did in 87 or 89 Ossie ardiles called it right when he said technically maradona was possibly the best player ever but he was not the best performer over the course of his career Compared to Pele No way not even close Pele was a serial champion across all levels Against everyone he faced Official or friendly You can say he played in a spaghetti western era but no one in his era touches his pre 1965 achievements Pele scored 126 total goals in 1959 for God's sake and dearman said he was only supreme world class because his creative abilities became more developed at a later stage He scored 126 goals in 1 freaking year at 18 years old You know Paolo Rossi a ballon dor winner scored 134 goals in his entire club career? You know maradona scored 104 non penalty goals for Barcelona,Napoli and seville ? Maradona is universally considered to be a flawed genius None of those flaws are taken into consideration in any of those lists Maradona the Free role forward scored only 9 non penalty Serie A goals in his best season 3 of those in 1 match against the 2nd worst team in Serie A history (Lazio 84/85) Passarella scored 6 non penalty goals in Serie A 85/86 Maradona the 'unshackled ' forward was at his best worth only 3 more league goals than Passarella!!!! Listen to his own coach Ottavio bianchi "It would be a mistake to deploy Maradona in a merely tactical position," he revealed. "He must be left to express himself as best he can. He must be allowed to show his class, his characteristics. It's up to us to create a concrete block around him, to highlight these qualities." Maradona most likely had limited defensive responsibilities and was not required to track back as other typical midfielders Relieved of the duties of fighting for possession in midfield, Maradona was set loose on the attack. It was an approach that allowed the Argentine to maintain his fitness levels throughout the season and he became the focal point through which every move went - scoring 31 goals in 60 games for Napoli in his first two years at the club. Relived of defensive responsibilities he scored only 3 more non penalty goals at his best (1984/85 Serie A) Then the defender Passarella did at his best(1985/86) His inconsistencies Lapses in form in 85/86 (check the Dbs calcio ratings and how Salvatore bagni was considered equally influential) How maradona lost his will to play at 29 years old after Italia 90 None of this is reflected in the analysis or popularity lists Just the same old shallow party lines Singlehandedly in 86..... Singlehandedly dragged napoli.... Nice for football romantics but doesn't stand the scrutiny of hardcore analysis
His performances in World Cup weren't amazing. I saw Didí as the best player in the 1958 World Cup and Jairzinho or Muller as the best player in the 1970 World Cup. Also he was injured in 1962 and 1966. I saw his overall World Cup performance similar to Messi's performance. But the difference is that Messi maintains his level with his club a lot more seasons than Pelé, in domestic competition and international competition.
FourFourTwo in fact just copy pasted their list from Voetbal International (with some minor alterations at places). But of course, also that will not compute or register here. Control the megaphones, control the worldwide media discourse...
The ranking from Voetbal: 1. Lionel Messi 2. Diego Maradona 3. Johan Cruyff 4. Pelé 5. Alfredo Di Stéfano 6. Zinedine Zidane 7. Ronaldo It's a good ranking but I think that, in this top 7, Beckenbauer and CR7 can be in and Zidane and Ronaldo can be out.
Taking into account his complete body of work Pele was undoubtedly one of the best world cup performers in history When Messi can score even 1 World cup KO stage goal then we can start making comparisons Messi has nothing to do with this anyways Maradona pre 2000 was never considered above Pele 7 games no matter how great cannot supersede Being a top 3 player in 2 world cups In 58 alongside didi and kopa In 70 alongside jairzinho and muller In 59 left the greatest copa America performance in history If we want to get technical maradona was unplayable in only 2 WC ko stage matches Belgium and England Pele was unplayable in at least 3 France and Sweden in 58 And Italy in 70 Maradona was never ever really a man who decided finals (in a similar vein to ronaldinho perhaps) Maradona never scored a single goal in a world cup final Copa America final European cup final Copa libertadores final Uefa cup final Pele scored in 2 separate world cup finals and 1 copa America final That is just international level At club level No amount of revisionism or romanticism will change the facts Pele never played even 1 match for a European club team In spite of this Pele scored more vs heavyweights than Maradona did in 10 years for Barcelona,Napoli and seville A performance of the calibre of Pele vs benfica 62 or Milan 63 doesn't exist for maradona Maradona was never unplayable against the best club teams of his era Good to very good perhaps in some matches vs saachis Milan but not otherworldly Messi vs Madrid 10/11 Manchester United 10/11 Arsenal 09/10 Madrid 16/17 Bayern munich 14/15 Juventus 14/15 Maradona has non of those Ferenc puskas does Eusebio does Pele does Cristiano ronaldo does Alfredo di Stefano does Cruyff does Legitimate all time club legends do For the sake of discussion and off the top your head refer to 1 Just 1 otherworldly performance he had against Milan Inter Juventus Bayern munich A hattrick of goals? A hattrick of assists? A cup winning goal? Any? If you have to refer to maradona vs Madrid 83/84 in a copa del Rey final then you have already proved my point for me
They played in different positions and in a different fooball, with a lot less goals. Only 2 great Maradona's matches in World Cup? He was unplayable vs Uruguay and Italy in 1986 and vs Brazil in 1990.
I forgot about Uruguay (a R16 match) Ok Only 2-3 are KO matches at best Italy was groupstage match Maradona was unplayable there? Do you have examples of goals,GOAT level passes,dribbling runs maradona did here Brazil 90 was a tight match decided by a moment of great play(genius?) Maradona dribbled 2 players,(not 'the whole team' as some fans wish to think) held of a third and delivered a great through ball to canniga Messi That is the worst version of prime Messi can also do this in a KO match + The assist for di Maria that also included him dribbling past a player Besides this one action vs brazil maradona really was not unplayable Or at least I dont recall him being so It was 1 great moment that gave hope that maradona could maybe still have it in him Hopes were crushed when Maradona was saved by Goycochea in the SF And ineffectual vs West Germany As for maradona vs Pele 3 amazing WC ko stage performances from the R16 to SF>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 goals in 3 world cup finals A hattrick in a WC semi final A goal in a copa America final MVP shortlist in 2 separate world cup editions MVP in a copa America Sounds logical to me
Although this premier league season hasn't been finished, I have decided to add Sergio Aguero in top 50 strikers of all-time mainly due to his sustainable performance in domestic football. I choose Heleno De Freitas out of the list as his prime was very short and his number of qualified seasons seems below average. In 9x100 positional ranking list, I remove Yuri Voynov and Ante Zanetic as both has just 2 great seasons and made a few caps as well. Other removal are Mauro Silva and Laszlo Boloni. All of replacement are from 1930s like Jose Maria Minella, Ernesto Lazzatti, Gyula Lazar and Andrey Starostin.
I just write my new article regarding what world cup champions would likely be if ideal condition would have been provided. It is just initial state of development. https://xtravictory.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-victory-at-ideal-history.html
It could be a long post, but I'll try to be concise. 1930: I think Zischek, Sindelar, Nausch, Hiden were not first choices by 1930. So, I'll go as contenders: 1st Scotland -wembley wizards-; 2nd England, Hungary (Ferenvaros and Ujpest as Mitropa winners) 1934: England and Austria (including Hiden, Nausch and Gschweidl) 1938: I agree Argentina. Just, A.Cuello was past its best. 1942: I agree England as contender. Hapgood and Bastin were past it. 1950: I rank Hungary in the top group. I think, Lantos and Budai were not first choices, but add F.Szusza. Higher than Denmark, I'll rank Sweden, Argentina and England (having Neil Franklin) 1954: For Sweden, Ake Johansson was not first choice. Svensson, Andersson and Parling weren't so great. I rank higher, Argentina and Brazil (Zizinho, Jair Rosa) 1958: I agree Argentina. At this point, I consider Di Stefano as spanish, and Belén, not a starter, you might add Mouriño and Grillo. 1966: Brazil with C.Alberto, Roberto Dias, Ademir da Guia, Amarildo, Jair da Costa. Were past it: Gilmar, D.Santos, Bellini, Garrincha.
First of all I admit that I try to collect all great names playing during the tournament time. Some are regrettably overlooked by coaches but some might have a decline performance in specific time. Anyway, in major tournament, the more experienced players are preferable to deal with the tremendous pressure. Also, in some fewer cases, the stars made their fame at tournament not a prospect player to shine. 1930 Austria : Sindelar was already 27 years old and it is his 5th year of caps, but he got only one opportunity in that year and it is interesting how would his performance been. Hiden played 4 games for Austria in 1930, I think he could make it but he was just 21 years old and he is lack of cumulative experience. Walter Nausch was at 24 years old and he played his nation in second year, he did not reach his prime yet but he could be a good choice. Zischek just played his first season but I'm even inquisitive if he could be shine because he did it well in 1931. Scotland : I think Scotland's strength is only forwards (Hughie Gallagher and Jimmy Mcgorry) and another star is David Meiklejohn. Alan Mortan with 37 years old already pass his prime. Hungary : The success of Hungarian club is a great signal for presumption of Hungarian national team competency. I see only Jozef Takacs and Istvan Alvar as a world-class players. Note that Tom Stevens names top 5 Mitropa Cup best players in 1930 without any Hungarian player. 1934 : I agree I should identify Austria with Hiden, Nausch and Gschweidl. 1942 : The point that pre-war players seems to have shorter longevity than post-war players in average. Hapgoods would be 33 years and 8 month years old. As the war was interrupted, no one know how long would he sustain his performance but at his age, there is some possibility that he would make it. Cliff Bastin was decline in 1939 but he could resume his performance in 1942 with his 30 years old as well. 1950 : Sweden is first identified in top group but aside from Gre-No-Li, only Erik Nilsson is competitive. Argentina is also in a shortlist with players like Nestor Rossi, Norberto Mendez, Adoldo Pedernera, Felix Loustau, Alfredo Di Stefano, Angel Labruna but there is no top-class defender, wing-half and outside right so I think the team is clearly below level of Hungary. Sandor Szuc is a good choice to replace Lantos ? 1954 : Argentina would be weak in winger and only Di Stefano, Grillo are offensive stars. 1958 : Belen is a winger and I understand Grillo could play as inside forward only ?
Hapgood was captain of England until February 1943. Bastin suffered an injury to his right leg during the 1938-39 season, from which he never fully recovered. He never played for England again, not being selected for any of the wartime internationals.
Based on the research I've done, it's safe for me to declare Scotland the team to beat in 1930. They're not just about the forwards, even if that's their strong point. They have a selection of solid defenders, a good keeper in Jack Harkness and potential ATG in John Thomson. Jimmy McMullan I rated as the best halfback around, over Meiklejohn, and Jimmy Gibson another great player. Morton "past his prime" is comparable to Puskas or Di Stefano "past their prime", IMO. The Wunderteam doesn't emerge until the following year, and many of the key players aren't regulars in 1930. IMO, putting Austria in as #1 would be comparable to saying Spain were the best side in 2006, or France in 1994.
Scotland was defeated by England 2-5 in 1930 with stars like Alex Jackson, Alan Morton and David Meiklejohn. England is seemingly a better candidate. I thought Austria did not send Sindelar, Smistik and Blum for almost entire matches in 1930 because majority of matches are friendly and Hugi Meisl wanted to make some experiments with other players. Upon 1930 continuing to 1932, Austria won Central European international club so the presumption is Austria has a high potential since 1930 but I remain think the team is inferior to Uruguay. All in all, I personally believe the obvious choices that turned history should be Argentina in 1946 and Hungary in 1950.
Interesting. I recently did a similar exercise on the Argentine team in world cups. Basically it is about the players that for me should have played in these competitions for their level. They are two teams, the holders and the substitutes 1958 RDomínguez Lombardo Dellacha J.R.Delgado Vairo Mourinho Di Stefano Maschio Corbatta Angelillo Sivori Carrizo Jcgimenez Varacka A.Perez E.Gutierrez Rossi Pizutti Grillo Pentrelli Sanfilippo Belen ___________________________ 1962 Roma Simeone Griffa Sacchi Marzolini Rattin O.Rossi Corbatta Di Stefano Sivori Sanfilippo Carrizo Sainz Navarro J.R.Delgado Vairo Guidi Pizutti Maschio Angelillo Belen Artime _________________________ 1966 Roma Ferreiro Perfumo Albretch Marzolini Rendo Rattin E.Onega A.Rojas Artime Más Cejas Simeone Griffa J.R.Delgado Basile Pastoriza Telch Gonzales Solari D.Onega Sivori ___________________________ 1970 Santoro Malbernat Perfumo Albretch Marzolini Pastoriza Pachamé E.Onega A.Rojas Artime Más Cejas Gallo Laraignee Piazza Heredia Brindisi Raimondo Babington Solari Yazalde Veron ____________________________ 1974 Carnevali Wolff Perfumo Piazza Carrascosa Brindisi Telch Babington Housemann Yazalde Mas Fillol Pernia Sa Heredia Basile JJLopez Raimondo Alonso Ayala Bianchi Bochini _____________________________ 1978 Fillol Wolff Pasarella Piazza Tarantini Ardiles Gallego Alonso Houseman kempes Bochini Gatti Olguin Sa Rezza Carrascosa JJLpez Marangoni Brindisi Maradona Bianchi Bertoni ________________________________ 1982 Fillol Olguin Trossero Pasarella Tarantini Ardiles Gallego Alonso Maradona Kempes Bochini Gatti Olarticoechea Galvan Mouzo Garre Giusti Barbas Brindisi Valdano R.Diaz Bertoni _____________________________ 1986 Fillol Clausen Ruggeri Pasarella Olarticoechea Valdano Giusti Batista Burruchaga Maradona R.Díaz Pumpido Cucciufo Brown Regenhardt Garre Trobbiani Gallego C.Henrique Bochini Borghi Gareca ____________________________ 1990 Goycoechea F.Basualdo Monzon Ruggeri Sensini Caniggia Basualdo Batista Burruchaga Maradona R.Diaz Islas Cravioto Bauza Serrizuela Olarticoechea Latorre Troglio Redondo Marcico Acosta Balbo _____________________________ 1994 Islas Caceres Ayala Sensini Chamot Simeone Redondo Caniggia Maradona Balbo Batistuta Goycoechea Zanetti Fabbri Trotta Cardozo G.Lopez Astrada Esnaider L.Rodriguez Ortega Acosta ______________________________ 1998 Roa Zanetti Ayala Sensini Chamot Simeone Redondo Veron Ortega Lopez Batistuta Burgos Ibarra Caceres Samuel Sorin Cagna Almeyda Gallardo Riquelme Caniggia Crespo __________________________ 2002 Bonano Zanetti Samuel Ayala Sorin Almeyda Veron Lopez Riquelme Ortega Crespo Burgos Ibarra Pochettino Pelegrino Placente Simeone Solari K.Gonzales Aimar Gallardo Batistuta _________________________ 2006 Abondanzieri Zanetti Samuel Demichelis Sorin Veron Cambiasso Messi Riquelme Tévez Crespo Saja Coloccini Ayala Heiinze Clemente Mascherano LGonzales M.Rodríguez Aimar Palacio Saviola _________________________ 2010 Romero Zabaleta Samuel Otamendi Heinze L.Gonzalez Mascherano Di Maria Messi Tévez Higuaín Andujar Jonas Demichelis Coloccini Clemente Cambiasso Gago M.Rodriguez Aimar Agüero Milito __________________________ 2014 Romero Zabaleta Garay Otamendi rlRojo Gago Mascherano Di Maria Messi Aguero Higuaín Caballero Roncaglia F.Fernandez LLopez Más Biglia Yacob Álvarez Pastore Tevez M.Zarate ___________________________ 2018 Rulli Mercado F.Mori Otamendi Tagliafico Paredes Locelso Di Maria Messi Ocampos Aguero Armani Buffarini Garay Kanemann Acuña Banega Marcone Dybala Pastore A.Correa Icardi
Good morning, victorcalello38. The following post that you posted a while ago does not reveal the images in which you offered a very interesting opinion, with the ideal equipment since 1930: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/team-of-the-year-1930-2016.2039582/ Would it be possible that you could put it back?
Nice teams!!! I have doubts with some roles: Sivori (LW), AC.Rojas (RW), Bochini (LW), Valdano (MF), Caniggia (MF), Cáceres (RB), Balbo (MF)
Yes, I am aware of it. However, I wanted to prioritize the quality of the players over the roles. Like Spain in Euro 2012: Casillas Arbeloa Pique Ramos Alba X.Alonso Busquets Xavi Silva Fabregas Fabregas PD: I've seen Fernando Caceres play right back a few times
Pity!! Did no member of this forum rescue that job? Fortunately, I keep a ranking that you made of the 10 best footballers by position and by ranking since 1930, but to which I am referring, you can only read the substitute players of each year. Maybe someone saved it on your computer's hard drive and it can be recovered; it is very valuable information.
Of course stuff like this is prone to get repped by the always anti dutch Gregthenazi (way before I joined this board he was spreading poison), but you should look at the scoring averages, and then compare it with other world class strikers of that time like Klinsmann or Careca. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifica_dei_marcatori_della_Serie_A Only a few since the 1950s compare (0.65). 25 league goals was also not seen since the early 1960s.