A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

Surprise: Greece had actually the 4th most starters in the 2003-04 Champions League. It shows the importance of access to the closed shop.

 

I also missed the inclusion of several players in that list, like all those players you indicate. After publishing his latest video, that of Maradona, he published another titled "The Forgotten" in which he mentions some more, explaining that, in some cases, they could have perfectly occupied a place in the top 50. Also, throughout all this series of videos, clarifies that in this selection of the top 50, the fundamental factor is personal talent, leaving track records and longevity on a secondary level.

 

Yeah, I see the video on Twitter:

TOP 50 HISTÓRICO. LOS "OLVIDADOS"
Había que cerrar la serie así, han sido catorce vídeos todos ya en el canal...
Gracias por vuestros comentarios que han echado humo...
#MundoMaldini https://t.co/zWxGFpEeYy vía @YouTube

— Julio Maldonado (@MundoMaldini) March 26, 2020

He seems to mention Zola, Bochini, Weah, Eto'o and Drogba at the end of the video having discussed previously Kempes, Bergkamp, Kaka, Magico Gonzalez, Kubala, Henry, Roberto Carlos, Stoichkov, Michael Laudrup, Batistuta, Francescoli, Del Piero, Pirlo, Paolo Maldini and Totti.

I didn't look on Youtube, but someone came up with 20 names that were still 'forgotten' I guess on Twitter as follows (obviously we could all do this for a quite long time in theory)
Rummenigge Rivaldo Riquelme Rossi Eto'o Savicevic Weah Valderrama Dzajic Baresi Neeskens Redondo Schuster Futre Seedorf Modric Hagi Tostao Shevchenko Papin
(obviously like I say 'Maldini' mentioned Weah and Eto'o at the end of the video anyway; I'm not quite sure by the way if Zola was just named as part of the discussion on Totti as an example of another Italian number 10/trequartista since I don't speak Spanish, and I didn't check if other players were getting mentioned likewise earlier but if Zola was meant to be included in his own right it'd make it 20 names 'Maldini' mentioned as his originally forgotten ones too...including Paolo Maldini of course lol!)

 

Yes, I've seen that too (and when I started typing I saw PDG already lists those names that he discusses extensively including... Magico Gonzalez haha). I've also seen some of his videos on specific countries and clubs (Barcelona, with three NED players in the top 10) and they don't always correlate with what is shown here.

For example, the defensive inclusions are top heavy for the 1970s. Rijkaard is one of the few to be in of a later decade to be in. But in his Holland video (where he claims relative to resources they're the best, better than Uruguay) he places Rijkaard at #8 of his country. Below Krol, Neeskens, Seedorf (who he rates highly), Gullit, Bergkamp, Van Basten, Cruijff. So it doesn't fully match but is of course hard to do (many spanish comments below the video say Robben has to be in the top 15).

Yes I had already that feeling myself. Well, what we can see here is that of all the top legends, Cruijff is the only one to not have a team-mate in the top 50 or the wider list. For his prime years (Maradona has Passarella for a number of his physical prime years). While accumulating in the end similar achievements as Di Stefano (monopolizing all the fame probably contributed to the downfall of the team).

On a related note to this quote on 'personal talent', I also agree with @Tom Stevens his explanation about Zidane. One might say he could have won more league titles and even Champions Leagues, since he played either for the richest or 2nd richest club in the world (seeing what those clubs did before and after), but there are many legendary players with not too many league titles and high finishes, in part because of taking a lot of risk works better in cup settings than league setting. Zidane receives relatively a great amount of scrutiny.

 

Haven't forgotten about the second list, but I think Kanté was arguably France their best player at the 2018 World Cup, and he has also a few strong league seasons.

Seems to me strange to label Lewandowski as a 'goalscorer' and Luis Suarez as 'playmaker' to be honest.

To be returned, with other thoughts (incl. Courtois vs De Bruyne), later on.

 

This is a tricky one since in many cases this are ongoing stories.

I'm not sure whether Di Maria, Cavani, Courtois and to a lesser degree Rakitic are really great players. Di Maria has his qualities but is also a bit of a headless chicken, and was/is generally not one of the main attacking stars of his team. At the same time, he has played strong World Cups and strong Champions League finals. Other than that 2014CL final though, I think he's not really someone who wins the biggest games for you or turns your team into winners.

Courtois like I said is still young (28 years old and 0 months), has possibilities, but it feels early and it also feels like a pinnacle, apotheosis of his career is still missing (think of Preud'homme winning stuff for his club, and his World Cup heroics). Everywhere he has left his traces behind, league, world cup, champions league, but is up and down as well. One Champions League win in a protagonist role (like Cech 2012, VdS 2008, Kahn 2001) might do the job. At the same time, he has already achieved a few times the most clean sheets of the league for a few different teams.

I rather prefer De Bruyne, who was one of the best three players of the league in three seasons (2014-15 for Wolfsburg, 2017-18, 2019-20) and has a few other strong ones too (2012-13 and all the ones where he led the assists chart). He can be sloppy and one-dimensional at times. His 2014WC game against USA was one of the best that World Cup and in 2018 he had a few good ones too. Maybe the club continental scene is a weakness, but also there some occasional strong deliveries.

Kanté as mentioned meets your criteria I think, in particular in relation to his own position. He has been good for France (against the big teams) and prominent at league level for two different clubs. Only downside is, again, the Champions League and he's also not particularly skilled/slick. Has shown however he can be very effective in a more attacking and advanced role even though it might not feel natural to him. He's player who has been very good (extremely good) in different competitions and for different teams so I guess he suits your criteria.

I agree Pogba is not there yet; also if you go back in time to his Juventus period it was a case of excelling in a slower tempo and with larger spaces. He wasn't a difference maker in the Champions League, or helping to carry them to a higher level (this is also a reason why I still think Pirlo peaked for Milan, and not for Juventus when he had way more assists in the league but was largely ineffective in the CL; but of course, if England refuses to mark him, or Kroos is tasked to shadow him in 2012, he can still run the game).

Busquets is possibly a pantheon candidate but I can also see he didn't set the lights on fire in terms of Ballon d'Or, ESM and team of the tournament stuff.

David Alaba I'd say is a good one for ATG and has been doing it for almost a decade now, and does register in ESM. Major thing against him are the national team performances. There are only two left-backs around that sort of level. The way less versatile Alba, and Marcelo (defensively poor, on the attack great and in some CL wins perhaps one of the best three Madrid players, and behind CR7 the 2nd most productive one).

Van Dijk I tend to agree is too soon for ATG, and although his impact to the national team is estimable, hasn't played in a tournament yet. However, a lot is pointing at him already being outstanding for Southampton (WhoScored, with/without, 0 errors leading to goal, highest long ball pass accuracy of EPL, and many other things), and he had also his good Champions League games for Celtic. As a locked starter (and player of the season) he helped Celtic to a 1256 minutes clean sheet record. Now of course this wasn't a top league, but the football history goes back to 1890 and the bouncy, hurly-burly, pinball nature of the football played is difficult circumstance for defenders looking really good and protecting the goal.

Adapting to different teams, team-mates and contexts, types of football, is part of being a great player I guess - and your criteria in the end result in filtering this out.

Long story short: Casillas I think has not the longevity for pantheon level, and also not the repertoire in skills (like Neuer). Kanté, also seen in your description of this being a 'French era', is I think already ATG material.

 

For Kanté, stuff like this from an 'early' season:

1 - Nobody has made as many tackles (353) or interceptions (266) as N'Golo Kanté over the last two seasons in the big 5 Euro leagues. Crunch

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) July 15, 2016

For VvD there is this:

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

https://www.skysports.com/football/...wanted-by-liverpool-what-makes-him-so-special

https://www.mykhel.com/football/vir...iverpoolpremier-league-75-million-077148.html

https://tribuna.com/de/news/2020-03...ying-to-find-van-dijk-alternative-in-maguire/

40% - Since 2015/16, Southampton have won 40% of their Premier League games with Virgil van Dijk (27/67), only 24% without him (7/29). 84M. pic.twitter.com/ioM1pqZXGP

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) December 28, 2017

5 - Top players for duel success rate in the 2017-18 Premier League (min. 250 duels):

72.3% - Virgil van Dijk (@LFC)
71.9% - Kurt Zouma (@stokecity)
67.9% - Jan Vertonghen (@SpursOfficial)
66.7% - James Tarkowski (@BurnleyOfficial)
66.7% - Jamaal Lascelles (@NUFC)

Solid. pic.twitter.com/JlGKvLUjRs

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) May 14, 2018

71.9% - Since joining the Premier League in September 2015, Virgil van Dijk has recorded a higher duel success percentage than any other player (min. 50 PL apps). Red.

— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) December 27, 2017

(just at the transfer to Liverpool)

71% - @VirgilvDijk's duel success percentage this Premier League season was the highest for any outfield player with 25+ games. Tough.

— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) May 18, 2016

 

One difference was that VI included ten Dutchmen and FourFourTwo six. The four extra ones were Robben, Krol, van Hanegem and van der Sar.

Two members of the current Pantheon were not included by VI: Koeman and Rensenbrink. In fact Koeman did not feature in any of four major all-Dutch lists twenty years ago, compiled respectively by Cruyff, Jan Mulder, van Henk Spaan and Raf Willems. Willems selected seven players and the others eleven. Cruyff's was in the form of a team.

Cruyff and Willems did not pick Rensenbrink either. Mulder and Spaan placed him behind old-timers Lenstra and Wilkes, and Spaan also ranked him below van Hanegem.

 

Regardless of whether Puck knows about those end of century selections already or not mate, it'd be good if you could post the selected names on here I think (or on Puck's Dutch players thread which is currently active while he posts a late 90s top 100 on there...so potentially after he finishes that).

I suspect Puck will know of Cruyff's XI but I don't know, and I don't recall seeing it before I don't think, even though maybe I'd seen reference to him selecting it somewhere before.

 

In the appropriate thread I'm now posting the full Spaan list.

One other difference between VI and FFT was that VI included Preud'homme while FFT had no BEL players in.

VI did have already a heavy England and Britain representation. VI already had many British players in.

My comment was basically about how FourFourTwo is seen there as 'the voice' while in reality they copied it from someone else (with some alterations, a few more of their own markets in).

 

Ah, sorry I hadn't concentrated on the author's name for that top 100!

On a similar note (and nothing to do with this thread as such, but maybe it's helpful) I think the list of names Vegan posted on his Serie A ratings thread may have been the top of the Guerin Sportivo list (by the same guy I guess) that's on rsssf as one of end of century top 100s. I could be wrong though as I haven't double checked yet, but Valentino Mazzola near the top rings a bell (maybe also the one submitted as the Italian top 10 in 1999 as per your Placar thread where top 10s from various countries were combined into a ranking?).

 

I think it is this page.
https://sport.infonu.nl/voetbal/148642-het-nederlands-voetbalelftal-van-de-eeuw.html

Basically no pure defensive player features in the top 10 (also not Krol).

 

Ah, no, it is the same guy isn't it, but he must have changed his mind a bit:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/s...very-game-with-player-ratings.2085771/page-93
www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html#gs-50

(Mainly on Valentino Mazzola vs Meazza...plus the order of the top 3 of course, but also in giving Beckenbauer a place in 10th and as we can see Van Basten making 11th in his extended top 100 as on rsssf)

 

Thanks - I've translated the page and I'm wondering if Johan picked the 5 nominees (except for 'false 9' where he is placed - I see that consequently Van Basten is placed as right winger option and also Gullit and Bergkamp, rather than inside forwards although he's probably thinking more of a 4-3-3 attack than a WM one I guess really) and a poll determined the XI (rather than him picking his first choice in each position)?

 

Ah, no he did make a selection himself I think:
"Ultimately, the next eleven players were chosen by Cruijff in his "Orange of the Century". Goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar, right back Ruud Gullit, central defender Frank Rijkaard, left back Ruud Krol, right half Johan Neeskens, left half Wim van Hanegem, right winger Marco van Basten, right inside Faas Wilkes, striker Johan Cruijff, left inside Abe Lenstra and left outside Piet Keizer. As national coach, Rinus Michels was of course the most logical choice."

 

I posted the Cruijff list with descriptions in the same thread too, and I have also the one of Chris Willemsen now but not posted yet (think you mean him instead of Raf Willems).

Spaan also listed the ten best left footers; there is a discrepancy with the overall list but will make a note of it.


This was btw Spaan (and I really think the 2018 VI list is better) his all-time team at april 1998:

Yashin; D. Santos, Beckenbauer, Maldini, Cabrini; Pele, Rijkaard, Maradona; Garrincha, Puskas, Cruijff

Garrincha is a sympathy choice for him.


His Oranje all-time team:

Van Beveren; Suurbier, Israel, Rijkaard, Krol; Neeskens, Cruijff, Van Hanegem; Gullit, Van Basten, Rensenbrink

His 'colored' Oranje team:

Menzo; Reiziger, Rijkaard, Seedorf, Bogarde; Winter, Kluivert, Davids; Gullit, Hasselbaink, Roy


All-time best players for him:

Pele
Maradona
Cruijff
Di Stefano
Garrincha
Beckenbauer
Best
Puskas
Muller
Ronaldo


Best keepers:

Yashin
Banks
Tilkowski
Preud'homme
Maier
Shilton
Van Beveren
Dasaev
Hellstrom
Van der Sar


Notorious kickers:

Goichoechea
Camacho
Gentile
Ferri
Bilardo
Rosato
Stiles
Vandereycken
Laseroms
Boli

 

It was this list of Raf Willems. Not actually all-Dutch as I previously said, but seven Dutchmen out of the total.

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html#ff-poc

The reason I posted it here was because Koeman and Rensenbrink are among the eight Dutchmen in the Pantheon, but do not seem to be rated as highly by their own countrymen.

There was another more recent all-Dutch list you posted with Robben at number three, but I cannot find it. The positions of Koeman and Rensenbrink in that list would be of interest.

 

Ah I see. Well I think per Tom's criteria of those seven Van Basten, Van Beveren, Van Hanegem are automatically disqualified for the pantheon thing.

Two of those three names are indeed generally placed higher than either Koeman or Rensenbrink.

Cruijff, Neeskens, Rijkaard and Gullit are not automatically disqualified for pantheon (personally I don't rate Neeskens that high - I agree with VI there).

No defender is among those seven names of Willems. Not only Koeman, no one.

No wing player (Rensenbrink) is among the seven names either, with Van Basten the only pure forward.

With some fantasy you can say it are one goalkeeper, five midfield players, and one striker.

In general I think the number of pantheon is on the high end while the all-time probably not (compared to the 'Golden Generations' of countries, with various players not registering in BdO or ESM). That said, we know that the supreme Brazilian players have often longevity issues to reach pantheon, and also what I said here at post 297 and 298. (with regards to cases like Paolo Rossi and vice versa)

This was that top 50 of VI in 2018, imho a better list than the one of Spaan or some of the othes you cited:

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

1 Johan Cruijff
2 Marco van Basten
3 Arjen Robben
4 Ruud Gullit
5 Willem van Hanegem
6 Dennis Bergkamp
7 Frank Rijkaard
8 Wesley Sneijder
9 Ronald Koeman
10 Clarence Seedorf
11 Rob Rensenbrink
12 Robin van Persie
13 Faas Wilkes
14 Ruud van Nistelrooy
15 Jaap Stam
16 Piet Keizer
17 Edwin van der Sar
18 Johan Neeskens
19 Willy van der Kuijlen
20 Ruud Krol
21 Patrick Kluivert
22 Arie Haan
23 Rafael van der Vaart
24 Frank de Boer
25 Ronald de Boer
26 Edgar Davids
27 Phillip Cocu
28 Mark van Bommel
29 Abe Lenstra
30 Jan van Beveren
31 Rinus Israel
32 Beb Bakhuys
33 Marc Overmars
34 Johnny Rep
35 Roy Makaay
36 Cor van der Hart
37 Sjaak Swart
38 Giovanni van Bronckhorst
39 Kees Rijvers
40 Hans van Breukelen
41 Wim Jansen
42 Harry Dénis
43 Frans de Munck
44 Arnold Mühren
45 Coen Moulijn
46 Gerald Vanenburg
47 Danny Blind
48 Ruud Geels
49 Huug de Groot
50 Willy Brokamp

I run those lists down you mention briefly here

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Spaan:

Only one defender - that means almost exclusively playing there in a career - makes his best 15 (Israel at 10). By that logic no defender is pantheon, also not Krol or whoever else.

Rensenbrink is at #7 in his list. Below Cruijff, Van Basten, Lenstra, Van Hanegem, Wilkes and Rijkaard.

Is he forced to use the criteria of Tom, maybe Rensenbrink moves up considerably. Well possibly to #3. Ahead of the two old-timers Wilkes and Lenstra at least.

Personally I see Rensenbrink in that 3 to 9 category, and Koeman as one of the many options for tenth (Krol as well).


Mulder:

He has not a single defensive minded player among the first eleven names that I can see. Not just Koeman. So again, no defensive player would be pantheon in his mind.

Rensenbrink is at #5. Cruijff, Van Basten, Lenstra and Wilkes ahead.

Three of those will fall out automatically if he's forced to use the same criteria as Tom, I presume. Lenstra has automatically not the sort of national team career of a pantheon player (like e.g. Nedved).


Cruijff

It's just that he picks his old mate Keizer for this. In his commentary he doesn't seem to suggest Rensenbrink was worse in his eyes.

He picks Keizer too in his worldwide all-time XI from 2012 (and his autobiography), as well as in 1993 (with Rensenbrink also listed as option, and Koeman listed as option).

I suppose he'd also pick Rensenbrink markedly ahead of Keizer if he was thinking by the same criteria as Tom.

For the all-time Oranje team of 1999, Koeman is handicapped by being placed in the same position as Wilkes (as inside-right).

---------------------

For Cruijff, it doesn't automatically suggest a high estimation indeed. An estimation placed above the others. For Spaan, Mulder and Willems it's a bit different I think.

Rensenbrink as #5 in Mulder his eyes is still very high regard, with two old-timers ahead (who almost automatically drop out per Tom's criteria).

It's also a question of how to value defenders. You can on the one hand believe Krol is one of the best in his job (description in the link), so 'pantheon', while at the same time placing him outside the top 15 relative to other positions and roles.

 

According to transfermarket Luis Suarez made 230 club assists which is exactly TWICE as more as Robert lewandowski

Also 21 of Robert lewandowskis 115 club assists came in the polish division/cup
https://www.transfermarkt.com/robert-lewandowski/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/38253

there is also a case Suarez his goals/assists came also against stronger opponents on average
Suarez played only 6 seasons for a top team aswell

It's justifiable I think to say Luis Suarezs 'playmaking' or at least creativity and teamplay are not just better but significantly better as lewandowski or even others as Shevchenco/R9/van nistelrooy/etoo etc

Suarez is a unique number 9
Unique that is by both modern and pre modern era standards

Probably not the best across all levels,As technically refined as others but he is the most complete I have seen

46 assists in his first 2 Barcelona seasons is unprecedented

https://www.transfermarkt.com/luis-suarez/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/44352

To put this into perspective
Romario is at least according to placar a top 10 all timer

this source credits romario with 77 career league assists in 452 league matches for
Vasco
Miami FC
Adelaide United
Psv
Fluminese
Barcelona
Valencia
Al sadd
Flamengo
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romário

Suarez equalled over half that production in just 2 seasons And all at the top level.

Creativity aside Suarez has some of the highest scoring seasons in
la liga history
Premier league history
Scored 49 in 1 season for Ajax (All comps)
With the benefit of hindsight now we can't put that all down to the inferiority of the Dutch league


I've seen 'credible' sources that include Paulo Rossi as a top 100 all timer but not Suarez
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/fourfourtwos-100-greatest-footballers-ever

1268771998076977152 is not a valid tweet id

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https://mobile.twitter.com/Michxel32/status/1268929597145591808

 

Raf Willems is actually a Belgian, but has written across both borders.

As another anecdote: Spaan is also well known for his role in making sure the Pope has never visited Netherlands again after 1985 (since then all European countries have had visits, even all the northern countries at recent dates, but not Netherlands).

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

The visit was a disaster and his satirical 'Popie Jopie' song played a role in this.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoraal_bezoek_van_paus_Johannes_Paulus_II_aan_Nederland
https://www.anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering/540/De-paus-in-Nederland-1985
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-05-10-8501290189-story.html

Countries by irrelegion, per wikipedia page and Pew research:



In a programme mentioning his work (and the one of his former colleague/friend Vermeegen) this was said.

Vermeegen: "When it aired on television soon all the media abroad were on our nose."
Spaan: "Short before the Pope came, I was interviewed by the American NBC. By the news. At a certain moment.. I found that interesting and flattering of course, my vanity was triggered... family in America was calling me. People who were there. In the cafe I encountered Cees Noteboom and he said: 'I was in the States and you was on the news there.' In itself it was a funny by effect.
Interviewer: "It was sold and aired in 40 countries."
Vermeegen: "Yes incredible. 40 countries! They all aired sections of our Popie Jopie sketches and parodies. It was the most used item of the NOS that year."
Spaan: "That says something about the impact. One, the attachment of the items to the Pope visit to the Netherlands. But two, also the strange vision of countries abroad on the crazy society Holland then was, at this point in time. This really would never have been possible, back then, in many other free countries in the world. No way the public broadcasting, the state television, gives that a pass. But we call that press freedom here."

Since then, Netherlands is in the book of the Vatican as an anti-papal and also anti-muslim country.

"Pope John Paul II visited the Netherlands only once in May 1985. The visit to the Netherlands was memorable since it was disastrous. Never before were the streets so empty during a papal visit and were there so many protesters. There were about 3000 spectators in total but many more protesters and rioters.
[...]
The entire visit in 1985 was a disaster. Later, father Van Munster (vice-chairman of the Pope Visit Foundation) declared that the visit should never have taken place. In 2014 an other planned visit to the Netherlands was blocked by cardinal Van Eijk out of fear of lack of interest in the visit by the Dutch Catholic public."
https://www.quora.com/How-many-Dutc...-pope-when-he-visited-the-Netherlands-in-1985

 

I feel this are maybe a bit too many for his Manchester United days.

He was once in the PFA team of the year (2018-19), with many advantages going for him to be there (his star status etc.), and even then there were many complaints.

17 is also a strong but curtailed season. Despite ankle injury started 30 games for club, started 5 for country.

1 - @VirgilvDijk made the joint-most tackles (4), interceptions (4) and the most clearances of all Dutch players v Belgium. Rock. pic.twitter.com/VnKaEjjVve

— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) November 10, 2016

Strong performances against Internazionale (scoring goal), Tottenham, Liverpool -- and Southampton did markedly worse without him.

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Sigh... I have no time for all these fake stats from a Barcelona shill twitter account. I maintain my position that Lewandowski as goalscorer and Suarez as playmaker is 100% wrong and a strange sort of juxtaposition.

You also have to look at the type of assists. Someone who does many crosses or lay-offs, or passes back to Messi and Neymar, are not necessarily better playmakers.

The thing is though: as soon as he left Ajax markedly improved (even in European matches), because Suarez was playing for his own glory and ego.

Tom Stevens is not counting the VvD seasons for Celtic either (where he clearly performed in Europe, and registered the historical clean sheets record since 1890).

 

110% of the data is taken from transfermarket

Define playing for one's own glory and ego ?
Is that Stat padding against inferior teams?


Marco van basten 1985/86
Ajax finished runner up

Marco Van basten scored
37 eredivisie goals in 26 matches

7 goals+ 1 assist Against top 6 teams
(PSV, Feyenoord, FC Groningen ,Roda,Bosch )

Ajax 85/86 scored 20 goals against the top 6
Direct involvement by van basten
40%

Suarez 09/10
35 goals in 33 eredivisie matches
Ajax finished runner up

Suarez contributed with
6 goals+4 assists against the top 6
(PSV,Feyenoord,twente,Heracles,AZ)

Ajax 09/10 scored 24 goals against the top 6 teams
Suarez was directly involved in
42%



Against the relegation zone

Against the relegation teams
(RKC Waalwijk,williem,Sparta Rotterdam)

Ajax 09/10 scored 18 goals

Suarez contributed with 7 goals+1 assist
Directly involvement by player :
44%


Against relegation teams
(MVV Maastricht,Heracles,NEC)
Ajax 1985/86 scored 21 goals
Van basten contributed with 9 goals+1 assist
direct involvement by player
48%

Suarez in his highest scoring dutch season was more influential vs top teams than van basten in his highest scoring season

Van basten was better against relegation sides than Suarez

If you say playing for yourself as in being selfish
Cannibalizing all the chances
Hogging all the set piece opportunities

Suarez 09/10 in all comps made 6 times as many assists as Marco van basten 85/86

24>>>>>4

Suarez turned the eredivisie into his own playground in a way no striker has done in 30 years

https://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/luis-suarez-9-or-10/

 

Inter 16/17 is arguably the one of the worst versions of inter Milan over the past 30 years

It is important that this elaborated on

Internationale is a historical juggernaut
The only Italian club to win the treble

However In 2017 they were nowhere near challenging for the scudetto
Lost twice to Hapoel Be'er Sheva in the UEFA cup
This is unfathomable even 5 years earlier