One spot below Netherlands, ok. I'm ok with that. But you omitted the continental competitions: https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/em/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_América#All-time_table Obviusly that the World Cup is more important, but you can't "erase" all the continental competitions.
The unfortunate reality is this: Messi 2008/09 scored 38 goals in a single season as winger/WF Messi played in la liga when it was a recognised top 2 league in the world He completed 3.3 dribbles per match 44 passes per match with over 80% success rate Over 100 chances created(some data is missing) It is arguable if not certain IMO that Messi 08/09 is a higher class season Than Diego Maradona ever had in his career However Dearman rates Maradona 78 in the primera division as a phenomenon Messi 09 in la liga as ordinary world class That is to say that maradona 78 with 21 goals in the Argentine division is not just better than Messi But is 2 classes greater than Messi Maradonas league goal production as a forward in 78 was matched by Luis Andreuchi This is a striker with 0 caps for the Argentina NT Luis Andreuchi went to the Greek league at 25 years old in 80/81 and scored 4 goals in 18 league matches The Greek league mind you As if the picture couldn't get any worse the top scorer of the Greek division in 80/81 was dinos kouis(21 goals) Dinos kouis was not a striker Not a forward Not an attacking midfielder But a central midfielder Maradona 78 was matched in the scoring stakes by a player who was 2 seasons later outscored by a Greek central midfielder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinos_Kouis Maradona scored great goals in the Argentine division maybe But Messi 09 scored goals that defied physics There isn't even a name in the football lexicon for what he did with the ball Without footage you wouldn't even be able to describe what he did to your children or grandchildren Maradona did alot of those genius things against absurdly shocking teams Take this This is possibly the best goal he ever scored at club level He said himself it was the best goal in his career https://www.elcincocero.com/noticias/dia/28-un-dia-como-hoy/929-maradona-marco-un-golazo-en-pereira I had to quickly research who this team was,their history,pedigree etc They finished 7th place in the Colombian division This was a 14 team format league The champions of this league deportivo cali scored 110 goals and conceded 76 goals The champions conceded 76 goals in a 14 team league format I never heard of anything like this in my life https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeonato_colombiano_1980 I know this is a friendly but this seems to get lost in the eulogism Messi at 21 years had those types of genius moments+production against top teams In the league and in Europe But for some reason he is designated as a ordinary world class performer There are probably 15 instances of seasons or portions of seasons of Messi,CR,Neymar,Suarez,robben etc that are underrated I think there is a systematic bias applied against modern day players Youd probably say his list is anti Dutch but if anything it is anti modern
All the people when think in the four greatest players of all time: "Messi, Maradona, Pelé and Cruyff" Carlito86 when thinks in the four greatest players of all time "Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar and Luis Suárez"
Source? 400,000 people say different https://www.extratime.ie/articles/24691/cristiano-ronaldo-named-marcas-greatest-player-of-all-time/ 400,000 fans>>>>>Pipiolo For the record and objectively speaking Maradonas best form hardly or never coincided with major titles at club level I'd say technically he has a pretty strong case for being the best ever His club career on the other hand pales in comparison to Eusebio,Platini,Messi,Cristiano,puskas,di Stefano,Pele,Cruyff Could reel off some more names but about these Im certain Maradona his record vs top teams ,his titles, his contribution to continental club competitions His (uninterrupted) longevity isn't remotely comparable to any of these names These 8 names have almost 70 league titles between them as a main protagonist. Add maradona to the list and it only becomes 72 These 8 players have roughly 30 continental cups between them Add maradona to the list and it only becomes 31 Was maradona even the main protagonist in the 88/89 UEFA cup? He was outscored by Careca and carnavale There is also some data that suggests he was also outdribbled by those 2 players
Yes, yes. And also a lot of youtube videos (made by teenagers or US "soccer" fans) say that the 10 greatest player of all time are Messi, Kaká, Cristiano Ronaldo, Puyol, Sergio Ramos, Neymar, Ronaldinho, Piqué, Marcelo and Bale. Spectacular rankings, with more than 1 million views!! They can't be wrong... At least provide me a list like this mate https://www.fourfourtwo.com/gallery/50-greatest-footballers-all-time, not a random poll voted by young Madrid fans.
I defy you to find me even 1 'YouTube all time list' that including those highlighted players There is no one retarded enough to suggest Marcelo or Gerrard pique are top 10 all timers It doesn't exist and you are just diverging the topic at hand You cant love Cruyff more than puckvanheel does and even he would tell you it could go either way between him and Cristiano ronaldo. 2 min search brought this up https://sportmob.com/en/news/160246-Best-football-players-of-all-time Ranked 4th all time https://sportytell.com/football/top-10-greatest-football-players-of-all-time/ Ranked 4th all time https://m.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-best-soccer-players-of-all-time Voted 4th all time https://footballsgreatest.weebly.com/right-wingers.html Voted the greatest right winger of all time Finished 1st place with 5,085 votes 2nd place was garrincha with 2185 votes 3rd place is George best with 1800 votes 400,000+fans+3 separate sources discovered on a 2 minute Google search>>>>>>>>>pipiolo+serpico+al pacino+dearman+fourfourtwo(who were no more than 10 journalists combined) That is if this is a popularity contest Objectively The image of maradona raising the world cup aloft,The raw emotions and the narrative behind it is one too powerful for even CR to overcome even with 5 CL trophies+ 1 runner up 5 ballon dors+5 times runner up 4 European golden shoes 6 league titles 120 CL goals 100 NT goals 250 career assists 600+ club goals These are not made up stats However If he wins a 6th CL for juventus He will become an all time legend of juventus,real Madrid and Manchester United Those 3 teams are part of the 10 most successful club teams in football history with some of the biggest fanbases worldwide And at that stage he'll have an equal claim to GOAT stats as any player that preceded him
Al Pacino Great actor by the way, one of the best. Mate, Cristiano Ronaldo is one of the greatest of all time. I never say the opposite. But don't you think that a 5th place is fine for him? He was more constant than Cruyff, won more trophies, that's undeniable. I only think that, in his prime, Cruyff was better than Cristiano. The same with Pelé, Messi and Maradona. Also i saw them more skilled. But I'm not saying that CR is a bad player! He's amazing.
Luis andreuchi 78 was scoring goals like this in the Argentine division Golazo 1 0:40 Golazo 2 2:11 Golazo 3 0:22 He looked like Gabriel batistuta in the Argentine division Difference is batigol scored over 50 goals for the NT Andreuchi was not even capped Andreuchi spectacularly failed in the Greek division Gabriel batistuta has the 3rd highest gpg in Serie A history after meazza and nordhal Andreuchi was the joint top scorer with Maradona in the 78 argentine division Andreuchi is not shevchenco,etoo or Luis Suarez He was a uncapped striker who was subsequently outscored by a Greek central midfielder in 80/81 Myths will just never die
Messi also improves for being at Barcelona (superteam) in comparison with the Argentinian NT (a regular top NT). From 0.76 Non-PK Goals + assists per 90 with Argentina to 1.31 with Barcelona and people think he would translate his Barcelona numbers to any other team.
1 - On this day in 1934, the Netherlands played the first of their 50 World Cup games (2-3 v Switzerland); only Brazil (67%) & Germany (61%) have a higher win ratio in the tournament than Oranje (54%, level with Italy). Beginnings. pic.twitter.com/LULsBQQyHR— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) May 27, 2020
More journalists who thinks like Fourfourtwo: https://www.90min.com/posts/6367400-the-50-greatest-footballers-of-all-time
Obscure source(YouTube video?) This a 1 list written by one football journalist Not journalists I'd go as far to say there is a consensus on him being a top 5 all timer 1 journalist with a highly opinionated list cannot challenge this For you: When asked if Ronaldo was the greatest player ever, Maradona replied: “Tell him to quit f*****g around.” The journalist then said: “If he’s the best, what does that make you?” To which Maradona answered: “Exactly. That’s why tell him to quit f*****g around. “From the few players that I saw, amongst the greatest were Di Stefano, Cruyff, Messi. “Cristiano Ronaldo could be in there as well.” https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-...s-to-cristiano-ronaldos-greatest-ever-claims/ Romario "I love Messi, he's great, but it must also be said Cristiano Ronaldo is among the five best players in history," https://tribuna.com/en/realmadrid/news/3338230/ Could add to this list similar statements from Ruud gullit Micheal laudrup Zidane Messi Alfredo di Stefano (when he was alive) Pele (but contradicting himself several times) Eusebio said this as far back as 2008 that CR would definitely take his crown 95% of lists place him between 4th and 7th https://www.ibtimes.com/top-50-grea...na-messi-ronaldo-included-best-soccer-1624974 This was pre Zidane Madrid era 16-18 and was still 29 years old Some lists on the dark corners of web could place him behind Karl Heinz rumminge or even marcel desailly and andres iniesta http://footballpantheon.com/2011/09/the-100-greatest-players-of-all-time/3/
Yes, Im not agree on CR position in the lists that I share. Specially in the first one, he is too low. Im only sharing the two lists to show differents opinions. For me right now he is right in the 5th position, but maybe when he finishes his carreer he will deserve to be above Cruyff and be the best european footballer of all time. But the two lists put Messi, Pelé and Maradona in the three first spots. Im not seeing CR7 beating some of the big three, but who knows, we have to wait until he finishes his carreer.
@Dearman Your rated Marco van basten 1989/90 as ordinary world class for the entire serie A season Firstly Van basten 89/90 only scored 13 non penalty goals in the league https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco...n=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=#subnavi Secondly Rudi voller 89/90 also scored 13 non penalty league goals https://www.transfermarkt.com/rudi-voller/elfmetertore/spieler/13775 In addition Rudi voller 89/90 made 2 assists in Serie A 89/90 Van basten 89/90 also made 2 assists in the whole serie A season Thirdly Non of van basten 89/90 league goals were technically difficult Literally not even 1 impressive technical goal Fourthly In his last 7 league matches van basten 89/90 scored only 1 goal 1 goal+0 assists in his last 7 Serie A matches Prime Van basten played for the best team in Europe Rudi Voller played for the 6th best team in Italy(ie Roma) Van basten 89/90 was evidently not remarkable in finishing Creating Dribbling Assisting In Serie A 89/90 How is this more remarkable than so called "supreme international class" CR 16/17 la liga Who was definitely (even in his 2017 guise)more involved in build up,wing play,ball carrying ,assisting,dribbling than Marco van basten You'll downgrade him on dubious grounds 1.)He was outscored by Messi Messi 16/17 outscored every league player in Europe Messis 34 league goals would also be enough to win the European golden boot In 1990 2.)He barely scored as many open play league goals as morata( who did it in less games) The inference being alvaro morata is crap (so Ronaldo should be aswell) But why was Ronaldo 16/17 the 5th highest ranked player in la liga? And why was morata 16/17 the 26th highest rated player in la liga? https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...13955/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2016-2017 What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to engage in to consistently commit such egregious errors Moving on: You have never rated Xavi as SW for any season or competition he participated in Despite the fact he was a ballon dor podium player for 3 consecutive years He was not SW when he made 30 assists in a single season( from a central midfield position ) Including 9 assists in the CL And he was not SW when he was voted MVP of an international tournament But just look at the mental gymnastics you further engage in to prop up your heros: You rated half of 1997/98 serie A as supreme world class for Zinedine Zidane Zidane 97/98 scored A grand total of 7 goals+5 assists in 32 serie A appearances Was completely inconsistent according to verifiable match reports compiled on big soccer In his last 13 matches of Serie A 97/98 Zidane scored 1 goal+0 assists!!!!!! https://www.transfermarkt.com/zinedine-zidane/leistungsdaten/spieler/3111/saison/1997/wettbewerb/WM 1 goal+0 assists in his last 13 matches Prime Xavi Hernandez 09-11 never Ever Like not even once went 13 league matches with only 1 goal+0 assists That is almost hazard 15/16 levels of inconsistent/bad Difference is hazard 15/16 played for a Chelsea in 10th position Zidane 97/98 played behind Alessandro del piero and fillipo inzaghi 2 of the top 10 leading goalscorers in Serie A 97/98 Zidane may of not been statistically as bad as hazard 15/16 But Zidane was at least in relative terms not that much better Only 1 of zidanes 7 league goals in 97/98 came against a top 10 team(ie Roma) 2:30 Is this much better than hazard 15/16 scoring against Tottenham(also arsenal) The rest of zidanes goals came against Napoli(relegated) Atlanta (relegated) Piacenza(finished 2 points above relegation zone) Bari(finished 3 points above relegation zone) That's it Hazard 15/16 played 31 league matches He went 24 league matches in total without a goal or assist Zidane 97/98 played 32 league matches He went 27 leagues matches without either a goal or assist Zidanes production was almost entirely concentrated in 5 matches against relegation threatened teams And he was Playing for league champions Juventus Not the 10th best team in England But but...... A.)Zidane is not all about scoring..... B.)Hazard played closer to goal with less defensive duties(demonstrably false if you say that) C.)Serie A was so difficult to score and assist in.... D.)You're not contextualising his achievements...... Look dude: Zidane 97/98 was outassisted in serie A by Ibrahim Ba Ibrahim ba had 8 caps for France in his international career And a grand total of 1 goal in 56 Serie A matches for AC Milan Ibrahim ba 97/98 also played for a 10th place AC Milan Not the champions of Italy Juventus Even at his worst The worst hazard has ever been at PL level Hazards production was still at the level of ballon dor Zidane Zidane under the microscope would never get away with this in the social media age 27 league matches without a goal or assist playing just off the main striker Zidane at juventus was also closer to a trequartista than a deep lying playmaker (or wide midfielder that he later became at real Madrid ) http://www.fantasista10.co.uk/the-trequartista-by-roberto-mancini/ That is closer to goal than Xavi Hernandez has ever been at any stage of his career 7 league goals +5 assists for a player who played just behind flippo inzaghi is definitely and unequivocally NOT a supreme world class return Hence the verifiable match reports that say he was extremely inconsistent Dbs calcio ratings do him no favours either To inflate zidane 97/98 to the realms of supreme world class You'd have to hang onto ESM rankings But again we have established you are not consistent with the application of your sources What is good for one player is simply not good for another
Seems as though Gary Lineker agrees with you. Interesting that he classes Pele as a goalscorer, as he does Cristiano Ronaldo, and as he was himself of course. According to Lineker, it is Messi then Maradona as "the complete package of a player". https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52827428
He has 0.68 goals per game in the Serie A. Other than some 1950s players, no player has a better ratio than that. Only Batistuta and Higuain have a ratio close to this. Pathetic bashing by you, in multiple posts you are doing it. It's typical latin liar nonsense to elevate Maradona a category above Cruijff. There is no logical reason behind it. Despite all the vast masses out there, various credible sources (not: censored dictatorship sources) have done it the other way: the IFFHS century vote, L'Equipe, SportBild, Don Balon and the FourFourTwo poll among peers all had it the other way around.
That hasnt got anything to do with what is being discussed If you want to get particular with wordings Van basten actually had a ratio that was close to batistuta Not the other way round In 249 matches in Serie A gabriel batistuta scored 160 goals with a average of 0.64 That is superior to van basten and gigi riva https://www.xtratime.org/threads/batistuta-better-than-riva-and-van-basten.21236/ Van basten 89/90 is merely random example I spent even longer discussing the double and triple standards used to prop up zidane Could do the same with Baggio etc Players today( particularly CR )are penalised for scoring an absurd amount of penalties Penalised for scoring inconsistently throughout a league season Van basten would never be subjected to this kind of scrutiny And If he was the result is terrible In the last 7 games of Serie A 89/90 prime van basten scored 1 goal+0 assists Ronaldo since 2008 never had such a stretch of form so bad that lasted 7 matches A 3 game period with no goal or assist is a headline story Pre modern era players would never stand up to the scrutiny that modern era players are subjected to Ballon dor van basten 92/93 Scored 25 league goals with 9 penalties That is 0.36 penalties per match C.Ronaldo peaked with 12 penalties out of 46 league goals in 2011/12 :0.26 Certain fans want to talk about how many more goals van basten or R9 would have with the penalties of Messi or Ronaldo I want to talk about how many more goals rudi voller 89/90 and aldo serena 88/89 would have with the penalties of van basten Of course you don't want to have that conversation and I dont blame you Stop making this personal btw Van basten may be Dutch but i dont have any vested interest in disparaging or overhyping dutch,english,French,Brazilian players If a particular segment of a players career Is overrated than it is overrated If it isn't present alternative arguments Zidane under the microscope that is the the 21st century microscope fairs considerably worse btw 27 league matches in 97/98 Serie A without a single goal or assist 1 goal against a top 10 team https://www.transfermarkt.com/zinedine-zidane/leistungsdaten/spieler/3111/saison/1997/wettbewerb/WM That is hazard 15/16 levels of bad Zidane on the back of this+ 1 great WC final performance+ And 1 mediocre/ poor CL final performance wins a ballon dor Its ironic that many Madrid fans I have spoken to say zidanes prime must've been at Juventus Juventus fans also say zidanes prime must've been at real Madrid This just demonstrates among many other things that Zidane at club level wasn't even at the level of KDB,Neymar,robben,Xavi Let alone a player with 3 SW seasons according to dearman...... And Xavi has 0 Neymar has 1 Kdb has 0 Robben has 0 It madness that needs to be addressed and thoroughly debunked
Theres no lie mate Batistutas scoring dropped significantly in his last 2 seasons for Roma In his first 249 serie A matches batistuta scored 160 league goals:0.64 That is up until 00/01 https://www.xtratime.org/threads/batistuta-better-than-riva-and-van-basten.21236/ Van basten only played 147 serie A matches in total :0.61 goals per game Batistuta up until the 00/01 season had a higher ratio and participated in 100 more matches (equivalent of roughly 3 whole extra seasons) The source is already there Like it or not You are also part of the non penalty brigade So here are some more unadulterated statistics Van basten scored 66 non penalty goals in 147 Serie A appearances:0.45 https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco.../74471/plus/0?saison_id=ges&wettbewerb_id=IT1 Gabriel batistuta scored 160 non penalty goals in 318 Serie A appearances:0.5 https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco.../74471/plus/0?saison_id=ges&wettbewerb_id=IT1 Gabriel Batistuta made 58 assists in Serie A: 0.18 assists per match https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Batistuta https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_van_Basten Van basten made 23 assists in Serie A: 0.16 Did not include batistutas stats from 1993/94 When Fiorentina were demoted to Serie B And yeah batistutas stats came on Fiorentina teams that were either relegation threatened, Mid table or rarely challenging for top 4 And 1 time in his career challenging for the league 00/01 So it's not only that batistuta had superior assist and non pen goals as van basten in Serie A Not only that batistuta played in 150 + more matches But he also played for teams that had nowhere near the same buying power as 80s and 90s Milan Again i am not talking about this at all But I've had to because you are insistent Im only highlighting van basten 1989/90 as 1 of many reasons dearman is inconsistent That's it
Since 1992, once the back-rule pass was eliminated and once the Bosman rule was enacted in 1995, scoring increased in Serie A and around the world. Not surprisingly the ratio of goalscoring increased in Serie A in the prime years of Batistuta and his contemporaries, but was lower in the various years that coincided with Van Basten. https://www.worldfootball.net/stats/ita-serie-a/1/