A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

argentine soccer fan · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Yes it are different situations but they all fall in the same bracket of DOGSO (denying goalscoring opportunity). That makes it a red. After the world cup it got formalised in the laws of the game, but it were already the instructions now. The referee himself said it was a red.
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He did? When?

I don't recall any direct red card on a handball during that era. Can you think of one?

argentine soccer fan · May 30, 2020

Ariaga II said: ↑

Well now you're just twisting and misinterpreting everything I say, either because you can't respond to the actual points I was making, or through incompetent interpretations.

1. The point wasn't Finland was a difficult team to beat. The point was England are Germany are difficult teams to beat. The fourth team in that group was Rehhagel's Greece, BTW. Finland crushed them 5-1. The managers of the world could have taken a couple of tricks from our book of tactics.
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I did not disagree about Finland, although I didn't watch their games so I take your word. Who were Finland's standout players during the qualifiers for 1990? Was Litmanen already playing for them? Hyyppia obviously not yet, he would have been too young.

I just said South America also had very tough teams. Colombia had to get past Ecuador and Paraguay, and that's not easy. Not only the elements, as you already accepted, but also the teams were solid, and they had some stars. Paraguay had Chilavert and Roberto Cabañas, Ecuador had Alex Aguinaga. I don't understand why you are so dismissive of these teams. Is it bias? Did you watch the eliminatorias? Valderrama stood out, among a good crop of players.

2. OK, so Maradona wouldn't have been sent off. The point wasn't Argentina wouldn't have qualified because of a penalty. They wouldn't have qualified because they sucked at the time, and they couldn't get results even against Asian teams.
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And yet they made the final of the WC, and a year later they won the Copa America. But I suppose you will say that the former was meaningless because Maradona had a handball and the later was meaningless because... well, just because you think South American football sucked.

3. I'm sure Peru is a tough opponent. Meanwhile, however, future WC semi-finalists and Euro-champions Belgium and Netherlands had to fight it off for one spot.
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Actually Belgium and the Netherlands were in different groups, right? Netherlands was with Germany and they both qualified. Belgium also qualified from a different group, along with Czechoslovakia. But I do accept that UEFA's qualifiers were tough, and that the UEFA groups were uneven. Blame UEFA for that.

Still it doesn't follow from it that Argentina wouldn't have qualified from Europe. They played three European teams that all won their UEFA group: the Soviet Union, Romania and Germany, plus also the home team, Italy, another top European team. I would argue that Argentina clearly held their own, their only loss came by one goal on a late dubious penalty in the final.

Edit: I looked it up and actually Germany was second in their group. Two teams qualified from that group, the other one being Netherlands which finished first. And I forgot to mention Yugoslavia, which also won their UEFA group. So Argentina played five top European teams.

At any rate, my point was that South America was tough back then, every team except Venezuela gave you a fight. Even Bolivia was playing very tough, and they had the ultimate home field advantage.

4. Yes, there is more depth in SA now than there was in the 80s. Look at their players and results. You're seriously going to say with a straight face Ecuador and Venezuela haven't grown by leaps and bounds since the 80s?
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Venezuela of course has improved significantly, they were bad back then. But Ecuador was tough in the late 80s, with players who performed well in richer leagues, like Argentina, Mexico etc. and had a very underrated superstar (maybe because he never went to Europe) in Alex Aguinaga.

5. I didn't say Valderrama was a failure in Europe because of a penalty. Valderrama failed in Europe because Valderrama failed in Europe. In two different leagues, mind you. Sucks for him if he couldn't adapt, but being able to adapt is a necessary ingredient for a great player as much as anything else.
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No, you made the point that South America didn't have good players (LOL!) in the late 80s and said Argentina was bad, and then pointed out Maradona's hand ball, as I understood it trying to say that Argentina's road to the final was a fluke, to prove that South America indeed was bad at the time, in an effort to dismiss Valderrama's success during that era. Maybe I misunderstood your point? What exactly was your point?

And my point was that other players considered all-time great also had a hard time playing in Europe. I brought up Didi. Do you consider Didi an all time great?

Even within Europe, some great players from one country don't adapt to another. Ian Rush in Italy is a good example. And yet he was a great striker.

msioux75 · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Uruguay can send three different teams of similar strength? Really?
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I said 2 or 3 (maybe for Uruguay), so it's clear I'm talking more about two.

But, if you ask about 3 teams, my honest answer, it would be, in its better years, they could.

Ariaga II · May 30, 2020

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

I did not disagree about Finland, although I didn't watch their games so I take your word. Who were Finland's standout players during the qualifiers for 1990? Was Litmanen already playing for them? Hyyppia obviously not yet, he would have been too young.
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Dude, I said when Finland was at their peak, which was in the 2002 qualifiers. I mentioned Rehhagel's Greece. FOCUS!

In 1990 Q Finland were crap. No standout players. Litmanen emerged in 1990.

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

I just said South America also had very tough teams. Colombia had to get past Ecuador and Paraguay, and that's not easy. Not only the elements, as you already accepted, but also the teams were solid, and they had some stars. Paraguay had Chilavert and Roberto Cabañas, Ecuador had Alex Aguinaga. I don't understand why you are so dismissive of these teams. Is it bias? Did you watch the eliminatorias? Valderrama stood out, among a good crop of players.
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Any European team would have thrown hoops if they had that instead of their qualifying group. Colombia and Paraguay were ok level teams. Even if the Austria you dismissed so readily had a better playmaker than Valderrama and better striker than Cabanas. .

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Actually Belgium and the Netherlands were in different groups, right? Netherlands was with Germany and they both qualified. Belgium also qualified from a different group. But I do accept that UEFA's qualifiers were tough, and that the UEFA groups were uneven. Blame UEFA for that.
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That was in the 1986 Qs. You know, the same qualifiers where Argentina faced off against Peru. I'm literally facepalming here.

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Still it doesn't follow from it that Argentina wouldn't have qualified from Europe. They played three European teams that all won their UEFA group: the Soviet Union, Romania and Germany, plus also the home team, Italy, another top European team. I would argue that Argentina clearly held their own, their only loss came by one goal on a late dubious penalty in the final.
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Do yourself a favor and look through Argentina's results in 88 and 89, which is when the qualifiers would have happened.

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Venezuela of course has improved significantly. But Ecuador was tough in the late 80s, with players who performed well in richer leagues, like Argentina, Mexico etc. and had a very underrated superstar (maybe because he never went to Europe) in Alex Aguinaga.
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List of these great 80s Ecuadorian performers in richer leagues on a postcard, please. I found Diego Cordova (flop), Luis Capurro (flop), Raul Noriega (flop) and of course Copa America super legend Holger Quinonez (guess).

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

And my point was that other players considered all-time great also had a hard time playing in Europe. I brought up Didi. Do you consider Didi an all time great?

Even within Europe, some great players from one country don't adapt to another. Ian Rush in Italy is a good example. And yet he was a great striker.
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Didi flopped at Real and Rush at Juve, and both had success at other major clubs. That's a mile from sucking so bad even Montpellier and Valladolid don't want your permed genius. Valderrama had zero achievements at club level, and on the contrary proved without a shadow of a doubt that he couldn't keep up at even a mid-tempo European level.

Ariaga II · May 30, 2020

Back to case Aldair, I'd like to add he has barely any ESM-votes in the late 90s. He's at the back somewhere hanging out with Ole Tobiasen and Vegard Heggem. An impressive disappearing act from one of the greatest defenders of all time.

argentine soccer fan · May 30, 2020

Ariaga II said: ↑

Dude, I said when Finland was at their peak, which was in the 2002 qualifiers. I mentioned Rehhagel's Greece. FOCUS!
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Rehhagel's Greece? In 1990? LOL!

In 1990 Q Finland were crap. No standout players. Litmanen emerged in 1990.
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Okay, if you say so. Then why would they even be relevant to the discussion?

Any European team would have thrown hoops if they had that instead of their qualifying group. Colombia and Paraguay were ok level teams. Even if the Austria you dismissed so readily had a better playmaker than Valderrama and better striker than Cabanas.
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Who was better than Valderrama? Herzog? I don't think so.

Who was better than Cabañas? Polster? Maybe he was. And was any of their goalkeepers better than Chilavert?

Well, Austria did qualify from Europe, and they did actually manage to score against the USA, so maybe they also would have qualified from CONCACAF. From South America I expect they would have had a more difficult time. They didn't perform better than any South American team at that WC.

That was in the 1986 Qs. You know, the same qualifiers where Argentina faced off against Peru. I'm literally facepalming here.
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We were talking 1990. I just mentioned 86 as a side note to point out that the team that won the World Cup unbeaten (while beating European qualifiers Bulgaria, Italy, England, Belgium, Germany and drawing with Italy), had a tougher time in the South American qualifiers than they did at the World Cup, losing to a very good Peruvian team on the road, one that I'd expect you also to underrate.

And if you prefer to talk about 86, then Netherlands and Belgium had to play each other in a playoff because they lost their group to Poland and Hungary and ended up as "worst" second place teams.

Interestingly, Belgium had an excellent World Cup, but eventually lost 2-0 to a Conmebol team, while UEFA group winners Hungary and Poland were very disappointing, with Hungary eliminated in the first round after allowing nine goals, and of course Poland sneaking into the second round but losing 4-0 to another Conmebol team. Those two UEFA group winners might have had a tough time making it from South America, based on their WC results.

Do yourself a favor and look through Argentina's results in 88 and 89, which is when the qualifiers would have happened.
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Practice friendlies? Is that what you base your analysis on? The only meaningful matches that they lost were one to Brazil and one to Uruguay, both very good teams at the time.

List of these great 80s Ecuadorian performers in richer leagues on a postcard, please. I found Diego Cordova (flop), Luis Capurro (flop), Raul Noriega (flop) and of course Copa America super legend Holger Quinonez (guess).
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Of the ones you mentioned, Quiñones was actually good at his peak, although he was irregular. Capurro was decent.

Aguinaga clearly the difference maker, one of my favorite South Americans from that era. Byron Tenorio was a solid defender.

They played a very defensive style, very difficult to penetrate, limited offensively, but still dangerous with Aguinaga working his magic.

Didi flopped at Real and Rush at Juve, and both had success at other major clubs. That's a mile from sucking so bad even Montpellier and Valladolid don't want your permed genius. Valderrama had zero achievements at club level, and on the contrary proved without a shadow of a doubt that he couldn't keep up at even a mid-tempo European level.
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I think Montpellier had a style that didn't play to his strengths and that's on the coach, but he still had his moments, he did help them win the French Cup. Valladolid was a total loss, I think he must have been struggling that year, but then he went back to Colombia and played probably his best seasons at Junior, where they did put a team around him that fit his style.

As I said, I think based on Stevens criteria he might not qualify as all time great, not because of a couple of seasons in Europe, but because if we look at the results, he was never able to take Colombia to the heights that his talent should have taken them. You can say that ultimately they underachieved. Still, he took them to a level they'd never reached before, led them to play as well and as beautiful as they've ever played, and at his clubs in Colombia and the US he was a pleasure to watch, always the difference maker, by far the best player in his teams, and a great example of why football is called the beautiful game. For me it's hard to imagine someone being a fan of the game and failing to appreciate what Valderrama brought on the field

PuckVanHeel · May 30, 2020

msioux75 said: ↑

I said 2 or 3 (maybe for Uruguay), so it's clear I'm talking more about two.

But, if you ask about 3 teams, my honest answer, it would be, in its better years, they could.
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Highly improbable, given their population and actual strength:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings

msioux75 · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Highly improbable, given their population and actual strength:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings
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Apart of Argentina and Brazil, through its history, Uruguay had been one of the world feeders, since the 1930s, easily in a 2nd group of exporters, not only to top leagues, but consistent feeding mid level leagues. So, overall with its up and down, they had a good depth of class players.

Nice, you mention its population, because that curiosity, always was seeing as a "miracle". I guess, is due to football schools, mentality teached from youth, and that football is by miles, the #1 sport.

This characteristic of world feeders, I guess was also given to some european countries as Yugoslavia and Nederlands.

PuckVanHeel · May 30, 2020

msioux75 said: ↑

Apart of Argentina and Brazil, through its history, Uruguay had been one of the world feeders, since the 1930s, easily in a 2nd group of exporters, not only to top leagues, but consistent feeding mid level leagues. So, overall with its up and down, they had a good depth of class players.

Nice, you mention its population, because that curiosity, always was seeing as a "miracle". I guess, is due to football schools, mentality teached from youth, and that football is by miles, the #1 sport.

This characteristic of world feeders, I guess was also given to some european countries as Yugoslavia and Nederlands.
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Except that Yugoslavia and Netherlands has many more European Cup and UEFA Cup winning players (take out the cups won with a domestic team, and it remains the same). That is one true reflection of being a proper exporter.

Former Yugoslavia has had 48 different players playing in the CL final. Uruguay only five players since 1955 (and yes, I know there are also some staying in the SA leagues, but even then..).

Former Yugoslavia has 10 times as many! Ten times! That is a major indication.

And since 1970, as you can see, they are comparable to Denmark in their level of the national team. They reached the World Cup semi final only once in the last 50 years (admittedly, not an easy group stage there, credit to them).

So no, they cannot split themselves up in three proper teams to the World Cup. How are they going to split up Suarez and Cavani in three? This are the only players to have scored 10 or more non-penalty goals in the EC since 1955.

PuckVanHeel · May 30, 2020

msioux75 said: ↑

Apart of Argentina and Brazil, through its history, Uruguay had been one of the world feeders, since the 1930s, easily in a 2nd group of exporters, not only to top leagues, but consistent feeding mid level leagues. So, overall with its up and down, they had a good depth of class players.

Nice, you mention its population, because that curiosity, always was seeing as a "miracle". I guess, is due to football schools, mentality teached from youth, and that football is by miles, the #1 sport.

This characteristic of world feeders, I guess was also given to some european countries as Yugoslavia and Nederlands.
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Europa League all-time topscorers (re: 'mid level')

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/eur...ttbewerb/EL/saison_id/gesamt/plus/0/galerie/0

Apart from Suarez and Cavani, there are three more above 10 goals. Fonseca, Pandiani and Forlan all on 11 goals.

Still begs the question how they are going to split up in three teams.

Tom Stevens · May 30, 2020

PDG1978 said: ↑

Apologies if my posting last night was a bit haphazard (I was thinking of logging off before several of the posts)!

Also if it was a bit controversial in some way compared to my normal style - maybe it does suit this thread to try to show strong opinions though like I say.

One thing I'm wondering now (I haven't checked this morning but thought of it last night) was whether Tom you had pasted a few names, including Letchkov's and Ivanov's, into the all-time great section (the one I was trying to get Savicevic in - not 'World class' which I think I typed but you knew what I meant I guess) erroneously instead of the 'considered' section, and that might have confused Ariaga on that, since you agreed in summary with those players careers it seemed.

Anyway, maybe not a surprise I argue for the players I did obviously! I probably do feel that it's reasonable to question Savicevic (despite the longevity issues - to be fair unable to play at major tournaments with Yugoslavia 92-96 due to issues outside his influence of course though and he went into that period with a better NT than Stoichkov and a better reputation as a player too of course) not making all-time great while Stoichkov makes pantheon. It seems a big gap not consistent with the class of the players, but on the other hand I do see that the way Tom's criteria works it might not seem ridiculous all in all (not to say I now go along with it though, and their disparity of performance in the 1994 CL Final should count for something I guess, while overall Savicevic has a better record of excellent displays in semi-finals and finals of that competition). Likewise Stoichkov vs Laudrup, but I see also when using Ballon d'Or how that comes about - it seems like Laudrup was really punished for missing Euro 92 in the voting that year and/or the Spanish league at that time didn't quite hold so much sway as later with voters or wasn't watched so closely. I suppose it's difficult for me to accept in a way because I do think Laudrup made more of a mark and played in a higher quality league in the 80s, and was better in the later part of the 90s, and also feel he was a better player at peak level personally in terms of pure class. I don't want to ignore Stoichkov's abilities though which could show themselves to a high level too when he was on fire so to speak, as he had the speed and left foot finishing ability to make an effect on any game, and some decent skill on the dribble when he had momentum that helped him score some quality goals, including in qualifiers (Bulgaria vs Wales as an example off the top of my head). I think his overall contribution in 1994 in the CL was probably very good and I remember his ratings were above Romario's in that competition (maybe a bit above Laudrup's too? - they were posted on here somewhere I remember), although Laudrup also had his great CL games such as vs Dynamo Kiev in both 91/92 and 93/94, or the games vs Barcelona for Juventus IMO like I say (despite going out, as team-mates didn't convert his chances created and his assist to Platini wasn't enough in the end). Arguably in the 1992 Final, despite not being in scintillating form throughout it he did make the winning assist only for Stoichkov to miss it though (albeit hit the post with a close effort) - if that goes in then Laudrup's assist may have been famous in Barcelona for years, so I think it's fine margins in terms of the narrative of doing it in big games like I say. Another two big games Stoichkov didn't do something special in would be the 1994 WC semi-final, and actually the crucial qualifier in France too when Cantona did better in terms of end product and overall performance, and it was Kostadinov with the game changing goal in the end that sent Bulgaria to the World Cup. On the other hand when they got there Stoichkov did still contribute some crucial and impressive goals on their deep run obviously.

On Aldair, I think we can't know how many times he'd be in the SA Team of the Year if he'd stayed in Brazil with Flamengo (and had the same continental competitions to play in as Gamarra). I do think in terms of overall skillset and capabilities he was better than both Ayala (who was quite slow, and maybe relied a bit more on physicality and fouls?) and Gamarra though myself (I might as well disagree with msioux75 while I am at it! - I don't often of course disagree with him). I've seen Aldair playing very well for Benfica also, with whom he went to the European Cup Final, and he was a Roma legend (making in effect their all-time team in a 2012 vote, at the start of their Hall of Fame project)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.S._Roma_Hall_of_Fame
I think the video I posted on the draft thread recently (and to be fair @carlito86 had already posted it on the forum I remember) can help to show his all round qualities as both footballer in general and defender anyway. I don't pretend to have watched a huge amount of his games on the other hand, but I think if Tony Adams has the level at peak to make all-time great then the more rounded Aldair surely does too.
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I know this has probably been covered before in a number of places but why didn't Savicevic play more for AC Milan? Is there one reason or multiple? I am assuming it must be multiple. I just find it hard to square the idea that he has all of these game winning performances in the biggest games (CL late stages) with the fact that he plays on average half the teams games per season.

msioux75 · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Except that Yugoslavia and Netherlands has many more European Cup and UEFA Cup winning players (take out the cups won with a domestic team, and it remains the same). That is one true reflection of being a proper exporter.

Former Yugoslavia has had 48 different players playing in the CL final. Uruguay only five players since 1955 (and yes, I know there are also some staying in the SA leagues, but even then..).

Former Yugoslavia has 10 times as many! Ten times! That is a major indication.

And since 1970, as you can see, they are comparable to Denmark in their level of the national team. They reached the World Cup semi final only once in the last 50 years (admittedly, not an easy group stage there, credit to them).

So no, they cannot split themselves up in three proper teams to the World Cup. How are they going to split up Suarez and Cavani in three? This are the only players to have scored 10 or more non-penalty goals in the EC since 1955.
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They are europeans playing in Europe only, not players having to cross the ocean, playing in a totally diferent environment and culture.

So, no surprise to me, there are more awarded players than Uruguay has.

Tom Stevens · May 30, 2020

PDG1978 said: ↑

I'm also not quite sure how you are choosing periods Tom, and it might be Date of Birth decides things pretty much (and obviously some players don't fit well in any period selected - I can see you are choosing to cut off periods approximately when 'new eras' can be deemed to have started in terms especially of predominant teams and players), but I'd probably have put Ryan Giggs in this period myself for example.
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I will be open to reassigning players. I felt Giggs is stuck between two places. The mid 90s is probably his best performances, but his era of greatest fame is with the treble team in the next era.

msioux75 · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Europa League all-time topscorers (re: 'mid level')

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/eur...ttbewerb/EL/saison_id/gesamt/plus/0/galerie/0

Apart from Suarez and Cavani, there are three more above 10 goals. Fonseca, Pandiani and Forlan all on 11 goals.

Still begs the question how they are going to split up in three teams.
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I said 2 or maybe 3 for Arg/Bra.
And emphasize, maybe, a big maybe if you want, for Uruguay. I mean, for the golden generations, not every generation.

PuckVanHeel · May 30, 2020

msioux75 said: ↑

They are europeans playing in Europe only, not players having to cross the ocean, playing in a totally diferent environment and culture.

So, no surprise to me, there are more awarded players than Uruguay has.
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Yugoslavia and Spain/England maybe differ as much culturally as Uruguay and Italy/Spain... That's not an insane hypothesis?

msioux75 · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Yugoslavia and Spain/England maybe differ as much culturally as Uruguay and Italy/Spain... That's not an insane hypothesis?
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My point about dispersion, is:
- European players when playing abroad ---> another european country.

In the case of Uruguay and another SA, when playing abroad, they go to:
---> european countries / top and class players
---> other SA countries / class and top
---> Concacaf countries / class and decent
---> Asian countries / class and decent

Tom Stevens · May 30, 2020

Again I moving through these quickly, input welcome. Once I finish out I will go back and post revisions and exam more closely correct eras, positions etc.

16) Zidane and Ronaldo ~ 1998-2003

This era is defined by Ronaldo and Zidane and the dominance of their national teams. Italian and Spanish teams dominate the European Cup.

Players considered

Alessandro Del Piero Italy Forward Playmaker
Ariel Ortega Argentina Attacking Link
Bixente Lizarazu France Wide Defensive Link
Cafu Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Carlos Gamarra Paraguay Back Marking
Celso Ayala Paraguay Back Marking
Christian Vieri Italy Forward Goalscorer
Claude Makelele France Defensive Link
David Beckham England Wide Attacking Link
David Trezeguet France Forward Goalscorer
Davor Suker Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer
Edgar Davids Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Emmanuel Petit France Midfield Supporting
Fabien Barthez France Goalkeeper
Fabio Cannavaro Italy Back Marking
Fernando Couto Portugal Back Marking
Fernando Hierro Spain Back Supporting
Fernando Redondo Argentina Midfield Supporting
Francisco Arce Paraguay Wide Back
Gary Neville England Wide Back
Henrik Larsson Sweden Forward Goalscorer
Hernan Crespo Argentina Forward Goalscorer
Ivan Helguera Spain Defensive Link
Jaap Stam Netherlands Back Marking
Javier Zanetti Argentina Wide Defensive Link
Jiří Němec Czechoslovakia Midfield Supporting
José Luis Chilavert Paraguay Goalkeeper
Juan Pablo Sorín Argentina Wide Back
Juan Sebastian Veron Argentina Midfield Playmaker
Kily González Argentina Wide Attacking Link
Lauren Cameroon Wide Defensive Link
Lilian Thuram France Wide Back
Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Marc Overmars Netherlands Wide Attacking Link
Marcelo Salas Chile Forward Goalscorer
Mehmet Scholl Germany Attacking Link
Michael Owen England Forward Goalscorer
Noureddine Naybet Moracco Back Marking
Oliver Bierhoff Germany Forward Goalscorer
Oliver Kahn Germany Goalkeeper
Paolo Montero Uruguay Back Marking
Patrick Kluivert Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
Patrick Vieira France Midfield Supporting
Patrik Andersson Sweden Back Marking
Patrik Berger Czechoslovakia Attacking Link
Paul Scholes England Midfield Playmaker
Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link
Phillip Cocu Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Phillipo Inzaghi Italy Forward Goalscorer
Predrag Mijatovic Yugoslavia Forward Playmaker
Raul Spain Forward Goalscorer
Rivaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Robert Jarni Yugoslavia Wide Defensive Link
Robert Pires France Wide Forward
Roberto Acuña Paraguay Midfield Playmaker
Roberto Ayala Argentina Back Marking
Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Ronaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Roy Keane Ireland Midfield Supporting
Roy Makaay Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
Rui Costa Portugal Attacking Link
Ryan Giggs Wales Wide Attacking Link
Sami Hyypia Finland Back Marking
Samuel Kuffour Ghana Back Marking
Santiago Cañizares Spain Goalkeeper
Sergi Spain Wide Attacking Link
Sinisa Mihajlovic Yugoslavia Back Supporting
Sol Campbell England Back Marking
Stefan Effenberg Germany Midfield Playmaker
Thomas Helveg Denmark Wide Defensive Link
Vladimír Šmicer Czechoslovakia Midfield Playmaker
Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker

Qualified All Time Great

Alessandro Del Piero Italy Forward Playmaker
Bixente Lizarazu France Wide Defensive Link
Cafu Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Carlos Gamarra Paraguay Back Marking
Christian Vieri Italy Forward Goalscorer
Claude Makelele France Defensive Link
David Beckham England Wide Attacking Link
Davor Suker Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer
Edgar Davids Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Fabien Barthez France Goalkeeper
Fabio Cannavaro Italy Back Marking
Fernando Hierro Spain Back Supporting
Fernando Redondo Argentina Midfield Supporting
Jaap Stam Netherlands Back Marking
Javier Zanetti Argentina Wide Defensive Link
José Luis Chilavert Paraguay Goalkeeper
Lilian Thuram France Wide Back
Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Oliver Kahn Germany Goalkeeper
Patrick Vieira France Midfield Supporting
Paul Scholes England Midfield Playmaker
Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link
Raul Spain Forward Goalscorer
Rivaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Roberto Ayala Argentina Back Marking
Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Ronaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Roy Keane Ireland Midfield Supporting
Rui Costa Portugal Attacking Link
Ryan Giggs Wales Wide Attacking Link
Sami Hyypia Finland Back Marking
Sol Campbell England Back Marking
Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker

Qualified Pantheon

Lilian Thuram France Wide Back
Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link
Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker

Main issues here. Ronaldo like Van Basten is just short the ten seasons, no matter how many ways you look at things.

Del Piero is a similar case of Johnstone, not an all time great national team career, but it is compensated for by many great international campaigns for club.

Gamarra is in. The difference for him vs Valderrama is although both did not work in Europe at the club level, Gamarra is the best defender in Brazil over a long period of time, unlike Valderrama who only has a few strong domestic seasons in Colombia.

Raul's national team career is a little short of pantheon.

Roy Keane is borderline for pantheon as well, at this point I have him out.

Smicer is an interesting player just looking at his resume, does anyone have strong thoughts about his candidacy for all time great?

PuckVanHeel · May 30, 2020

Vieri his continental record is maybe a bit underwhelming compared to other strikers of his generation?

http://www.rsssf.com/players/players-in-ec.html

How does England end up with more all-time great players for this era as Netherlands? Don't see it and has no logic. We were one of the best national teams in this era (with some of the more successful CL players and most successful goalscorers) and no fillers.

Tom Stevens · May 30, 2020

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Vieri his continental record is maybe a bit underwhelming compared to other strikers of his generation?

http://www.rsssf.com/players/players-in-ec.html

How does England end up with more all-time great players for this era as Netherlands? Don't see it and has no logic. We were one of the best national teams in this era (with some of the more successful CL players and most successful goalscorers) and no fillers.
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What other dutch players were you looking for, some may be in the next era. I am unsure about Scholes as well.

Tom Stevens · May 30, 2020

Trying to keep things moving, so again input is welcome I am moving fast.

17) Mid 00s Transition ~ 2003-2008

This era is a transition from the Zidane/France Ronaldo/Brazil era to the Spain Ronaldo Messi era. This era features rise to dominance of English clubs and the failure of this golden English generation internationally. This era also features the Ronaldinho Barcelona and Kaka Milan teams and a great Italian side that wins the World Cup.

Considered

Alessandro Nesta Italy Back Marking
Andrea Pirlo Italy Midfield Playmaker
Andriy Shevchenko Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer
Ashley Cole England Wide Defensive Link
Carles Puyol Spain Back Marking
Clarence Seedorf Netherlands Midfield Playmaker
Cristian Chivu Romania Back Supporting
Deco Portugal Midfield Playmaker
Dida Brazil Goalkeeper
Didier Drogba Ivory Coast Forward Goalscorer
Emerson Brazil Midfield Supporting
Esteban Cambiasso Argentina Midfield Supporting
Federic Kanoute Mali Forward Goalscorer
Fernando Torres Spain Forward Goalscorer
Francesco Totti Italy Forward Playmaker
Frank Lampard England Attacking Link
Freddie Ljungberg Sweden Wide Forward
Gennaro Gattuso Italy Midfield Supporting
Gianluca Zambrotta Italy Wide Defensive Link
Gianluigi Buffon Italy Goalkeeper
Gilberto Silva Brazil Midfield Supporting
Jens Lehmann Germany Goalkeeper
John Terry England Back Marking
Juan Roman Riquelme Argentina Midfield Playmaker
Juninho Brazil Midfield Playmaker
Kaka Brazil Attacking Link
Kolo Toure Ivory Coast Back Supporting
Luca Toni Italy Forward Goalscorer
Lucio Brazil Back Supporting
Luis Fabinho Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Maniche Portugal Midfield Supporting
Marcos Senna Spain Midfield Supporting
Marek Jankulovski Czechoslovakia Wide Defensive Link
Mark Van Bommel Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Michaek Essien Ghana Midfield Supporting
Michael Ballack Germany Midfield Playmaker
Miroslav Klose Germany Forward Goalscorer
Pablo Aimar Argentina Attacking Link
Pauleta Portugal Forward Goalscorer
Petr Cech Czechoslovakia Goalkeeper
Ricardo Carvalho Portugal Back Marking
Rio Ferdinand England Back Supporting
Ronaldinho Brazil Wide Attacking Link
Ruud van Nistelrooy Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
Shay Given Ireland Goalkeeper
Simão Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Steven Gerrard England Midfield Playmaker
Thierry Henry France Forward Playmaker
Tiago Portugal Midfield Supporting
Tomáš Rosický Czechoslovakia Attacking Link
Torsten Frings Germany Midfield Supporting
Walter Samuel Argentina Back Marking
William Gallas France Wide Back
Willy Sagnol France Wide Defensive Link
Ze Roberto Brazil Midfield Supporting

Qualified All Time Great

Alessandro Nesta Italy Back Marking
Andrea Pirlo Italy Midfield Playmaker
Andriy Shevchenko Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer
Ashley Cole England Wide Defensive Link
Carles Puyol Spain Back Marking
Clarence Seedorf Netherlands Midfield Playmaker
Deco Portugal Midfield Playmaker
Didier Drogba Ivory Coast Forward Goalscorer
Emerson Brazil Midfield Supporting
Esteban Cambiasso Argentina Midfield Supporting
Francesco Totti Italy Forward Playmaker
Frank Lampard England Attacking Link
Gianluca Zambrotta Italy Wide Defensive Link
Gianluigi Buffon Italy Goalkeeper
John Terry England Back Marking
Kaka Brazil Attacking Link
Lucio Brazil Back Supporting
Mark Van Bommel Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Michael Ballack Germany Midfield Playmaker
Petr Cech Czechoslovakia Goalkeeper
Ricardo Carvalho Portugal Back Marking
Rio Ferdinand England Back Supporting
Ronaldinho Brazil Wide Attacking Link
Ruud van Nistelrooy Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
Steven Gerrard England Midfield Playmaker
Thierry Henry France Forward Playmaker

Pantheon

Alessandro Nesta Italy Back Marking
Gianluigi Buffon Italy Goalkeeper

poetgooner · May 30, 2020

I assume Patrick Vieira missed out on the Pantheon list because he was never considered" the best in the world?"

poetgooner · May 30, 2020

There's a lot of players in the latest era that I would've have expected to have a case for the pantheon. Not saying all of them should, but I definitely thought there would be more than two.

I'd like to think that a few from:
Pirlo, Puyol, Cole, Seedorf, Terry, Ballack, Cech, Carvalho, Gerrad, and Henry would all be at the cusp.

PDG1978 · May 31, 2020

Tom Stevens said: ↑

I know this has probably been covered before in a number of places but why didn't Savicevic play more for AC Milan? Is there one reason or multiple? I am assuming it must be multiple. I just find it hard to square the idea that he has all of these game winning performances in the biggest games (CL late stages) with the fact that he plays on average half the teams games per season.
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Initially the two reasons were a plethora of foreign players (including Gullit, Van Basten etc as well as other new signings) that meant due to the rules at the time not all of them could play, and Capello not being a fan (but eventually he puts him in his 'best XI' from time in management so he was won over I guess, and they started to see more eye to eye or be able to tolerate each other more).

In 94/95 and 95/96 he had a few minor injuries that saw him miss some games (Wikipedia describes I think the situation in 94/95 - the more positive results when he played and the dispute about whether he was fit for the CL Final with Capello deciding not), and after that his general form/fitness probably was more questionable (and at Intl level he went into the 1998 WC with bad fitness having been injured I think, and didn't really make a great impression or influence things when he came on as sub so in effect his whole prime at major tournaments had been lost in between then and the 1990 WC I think).

Like I say, I can see that these things can be problematic in terms of your criteria, although I don't think there'd be much doubt (in general opinion as reflected perhaps by the IFFHS vote or the Serbia/Montenegro Golden Player voting) that he'd be thought of as more of a 'great' than say a Chapuisat (who was nevertheless I believe a very good top level player at his best, and himself probably in decline when he got to play in the 1994 WC with a worldwide audience...though his team did quite well). For me in terms of pure class and level of player at their best I'd go with Savicevic over Stoichkov but that would surely be a more debateable one and I could understand you'd either doubt it based on knowledge or disagree based on footage even potentially. It'd be more of a personal view rather than I guess the widely held view comparing to a Chapuisat, and I probably do value creators more than scorers (in general, not as a blanket rule in every case obviously - eg I'd prefer watching Rui Costa over Batistuta but I'm not sure I'd quite say he was better or more impactful in the grand scheme of things in their prime, though obviously in particular games or runs of games he would be).

PDG1978 · May 31, 2020

Tom Stevens said: ↑

Again I moving through these quickly, input welcome. Once I finish out I will go back and post revisions and exam more closely correct eras, positions etc.

16) Zidane and Ronaldo ~ 1998-2003

This era is defined by Ronaldo and Zidane and the dominance of their national teams. Italian and Spanish teams dominate the European Cup.

Players considered

Alessandro Del Piero Italy Forward Playmaker
Ariel Ortega Argentina Attacking Link
Bixente Lizarazu France Wide Defensive Link
Cafu Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Carlos Gamarra Paraguay Back Marking
Celso Ayala Paraguay Back Marking
Christian Vieri Italy Forward Goalscorer
Claude Makelele France Defensive Link
David Beckham England Wide Attacking Link
David Trezeguet France Forward Goalscorer
Davor Suker Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer
Edgar Davids Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Emmanuel Petit France Midfield Supporting
Fabien Barthez France Goalkeeper
Fabio Cannavaro Italy Back Marking
Fernando Couto Portugal Back Marking
Fernando Hierro Spain Back Supporting
Fernando Redondo Argentina Midfield Supporting
Francisco Arce Paraguay Wide Back
Gary Neville England Wide Back
Henrik Larsson Sweden Forward Goalscorer
Hernan Crespo Argentina Forward Goalscorer
Ivan Helguera Spain Defensive Link
Jaap Stam Netherlands Back Marking
Javier Zanetti Argentina Wide Defensive Link
Jiří Němec Czechoslovakia Midfield Supporting
José Luis Chilavert Paraguay Goalkeeper
Juan Pablo Sorín Argentina Wide Back
Juan Sebastian Veron Argentina Midfield Playmaker
Kily González Argentina Wide Attacking Link
Lauren Cameroon Wide Defensive Link
Lilian Thuram France Wide Back
Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Marc Overmars Netherlands Wide Attacking Link
Marcelo Salas Chile Forward Goalscorer
Mehmet Scholl Germany Attacking Link
Michael Owen England Forward Goalscorer
Noureddine Naybet Moracco Back Marking
Oliver Bierhoff Germany Forward Goalscorer
Oliver Kahn Germany Goalkeeper
Paolo Montero Uruguay Back Marking
Patrick Kluivert Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
Patrick Vieira France Midfield Supporting
Patrik Andersson Sweden Back Marking
Patrik Berger Czechoslovakia Attacking Link
Paul Scholes England Midfield Playmaker
Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link
Phillip Cocu Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Phillipo Inzaghi Italy Forward Goalscorer
Predrag Mijatovic Yugoslavia Forward Playmaker
Raul Spain Forward Goalscorer
Rivaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Robert Jarni Yugoslavia Wide Defensive Link
Robert Pires France Wide Forward
Roberto Acuña Paraguay Midfield Playmaker
Roberto Ayala Argentina Back Marking
Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Ronaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Roy Keane Ireland Midfield Supporting
Roy Makaay Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
Rui Costa Portugal Attacking Link
Ryan Giggs Wales Wide Attacking Link
Sami Hyypia Finland Back Marking
Samuel Kuffour Ghana Back Marking
Santiago Cañizares Spain Goalkeeper
Sergi Spain Wide Attacking Link
Sinisa Mihajlovic Yugoslavia Back Supporting
Sol Campbell England Back Marking
Stefan Effenberg Germany Midfield Playmaker
Thomas Helveg Denmark Wide Defensive Link
Vladimír Šmicer Czechoslovakia Midfield Playmaker
Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker

Qualified All Time Great

Alessandro Del Piero Italy Forward Playmaker
Bixente Lizarazu France Wide Defensive Link
Cafu Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Carlos Gamarra Paraguay Back Marking
Christian Vieri Italy Forward Goalscorer
Claude Makelele France Defensive Link
David Beckham England Wide Attacking Link
Davor Suker Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer
Edgar Davids Netherlands Midfield Supporting
Fabien Barthez France Goalkeeper
Fabio Cannavaro Italy Back Marking
Fernando Hierro Spain Back Supporting
Fernando Redondo Argentina Midfield Supporting
Jaap Stam Netherlands Back Marking
Javier Zanetti Argentina Wide Defensive Link
José Luis Chilavert Paraguay Goalkeeper
Lilian Thuram France Wide Back
Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Oliver Kahn Germany Goalkeeper
Patrick Vieira France Midfield Supporting
Paul Scholes England Midfield Playmaker
Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link
Raul Spain Forward Goalscorer
Rivaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Roberto Ayala Argentina Back Marking
Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Ronaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
Roy Keane Ireland Midfield Supporting
Rui Costa Portugal Attacking Link
Ryan Giggs Wales Wide Attacking Link
Sami Hyypia Finland Back Marking
Sol Campbell England Back Marking
Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker

Qualified Pantheon

Lilian Thuram France Wide Back
Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link
Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link
Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link
Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker

Main issues here. Ronaldo like Van Basten is just short the ten seasons, no matter how many ways you look at things.

Del Piero is a similar case of Johnstone, not an all time great national team career, but it is compensated for by many great international campaigns for club.

Gamarra is in. The difference for him vs Valderrama is although both did not work in Europe at the club level, Gamarra is the best defender in Brazil over a long period of time, unlike Valderrama who only has a few strong domestic seasons in Colombia.

Raul's national team career is a little short of pantheon.

Roy Keane is borderline for pantheon as well, at this point I have him out.

Smicer is an interesting player just looking at his resume, does anyone have strong thoughts about his candidacy for all time great?
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Despite not being a Liverpool fan (as a Forest fan maybe I should be the opposite although I wouldn't say that's true really - I had a number of friends who were Liverpool fans over the years although most of them not from Liverpool lol!), I was actually a bit of a fan of Smicer when he went to play for them (and likewise the aforementioned Vegard Heggem actually!; I see now anyway msioux's mentioned players Gamarra and Ayala are making the cut and I do see the logic behind the Gamarra decision, given impressive displays in a WC too anyway and the lower level of acclaim needed for defenders i.e thinking in terms of best defenders in the world rather than best overall players...which to go back to it I still do feel makes Aldair's case more compelling and it might be seen in terms of his later 90s career adding to longevity as a decent contributor rather than being assessed as his prime level given his age - it might be I think that like Giggs and some others he did have a bit of a final revival although just before the Roma championship season since he was out injured quite often during that...as he had been in 93/94 actually).

Anyway, after digressing quite a bit there....Smicer for me would not have the level to be seen as an all-time great no. He never really shone enough for Liverpool, but did rack up a decent tally of assists nevertheless. Overall I guess a bit more was expected than delivered (Liverpool is a big club of course) but he had his moments. Houllier was a big fan I tend to think. Along with Nedved and others, I remember that in the latter part of the 90s he was part of a highly-rated fluent Czech team, but again never really a top International star. I'd say it'd have to be a no from me (especially if Savicevic didn't make it as alluded to!).

PDG1978 · May 31, 2020

It's definitely following a pattern (creation>scoring again, albeit with some overlap in terms of the end product stats), but I'd go Pires>Drogba myself, and I guess both have similar cases in terms of being a bit borderline with number of 'great seasons' after taking a little bit of time to bed in (I do think eventually in 2000/01 Pires was playing great as the season ended).

But obviously it's your list not mine Tom, and I'd still tend to argue for Savicevic more than Pires (but Pires>Smicer would be clear cut I think to be fair).