He did? When? I don't recall any direct red card on a handball during that era. Can you think of one?
I did not disagree about Finland, although I didn't watch their games so I take your word. Who were Finland's standout players during the qualifiers for 1990? Was Litmanen already playing for them? Hyyppia obviously not yet, he would have been too young. I just said South America also had very tough teams. Colombia had to get past Ecuador and Paraguay, and that's not easy. Not only the elements, as you already accepted, but also the teams were solid, and they had some stars. Paraguay had Chilavert and Roberto Cabañas, Ecuador had Alex Aguinaga. I don't understand why you are so dismissive of these teams. Is it bias? Did you watch the eliminatorias? Valderrama stood out, among a good crop of players. And yet they made the final of the WC, and a year later they won the Copa America. But I suppose you will say that the former was meaningless because Maradona had a handball and the later was meaningless because... well, just because you think South American football sucked. Actually Belgium and the Netherlands were in different groups, right? Netherlands was with Germany and they both qualified. Belgium also qualified from a different group, along with Czechoslovakia. But I do accept that UEFA's qualifiers were tough, and that the UEFA groups were uneven. Blame UEFA for that. Still it doesn't follow from it that Argentina wouldn't have qualified from Europe. They played three European teams that all won their UEFA group: the Soviet Union, Romania and Germany, plus also the home team, Italy, another top European team. I would argue that Argentina clearly held their own, their only loss came by one goal on a late dubious penalty in the final. Edit: I looked it up and actually Germany was second in their group. Two teams qualified from that group, the other one being Netherlands which finished first. And I forgot to mention Yugoslavia, which also won their UEFA group. So Argentina played five top European teams. At any rate, my point was that South America was tough back then, every team except Venezuela gave you a fight. Even Bolivia was playing very tough, and they had the ultimate home field advantage. Venezuela of course has improved significantly, they were bad back then. But Ecuador was tough in the late 80s, with players who performed well in richer leagues, like Argentina, Mexico etc. and had a very underrated superstar (maybe because he never went to Europe) in Alex Aguinaga. No, you made the point that South America didn't have good players (LOL!) in the late 80s and said Argentina was bad, and then pointed out Maradona's hand ball, as I understood it trying to say that Argentina's road to the final was a fluke, to prove that South America indeed was bad at the time, in an effort to dismiss Valderrama's success during that era. Maybe I misunderstood your point? What exactly was your point? And my point was that other players considered all-time great also had a hard time playing in Europe. I brought up Didi. Do you consider Didi an all time great? Even within Europe, some great players from one country don't adapt to another. Ian Rush in Italy is a good example. And yet he was a great striker.
I said 2 or 3 (maybe for Uruguay), so it's clear I'm talking more about two. But, if you ask about 3 teams, my honest answer, it would be, in its better years, they could.
Dude, I said when Finland was at their peak, which was in the 2002 qualifiers. I mentioned Rehhagel's Greece. FOCUS! In 1990 Q Finland were crap. No standout players. Litmanen emerged in 1990. Any European team would have thrown hoops if they had that instead of their qualifying group. Colombia and Paraguay were ok level teams. Even if the Austria you dismissed so readily had a better playmaker than Valderrama and better striker than Cabanas. . That was in the 1986 Qs. You know, the same qualifiers where Argentina faced off against Peru. I'm literally facepalming here. Do yourself a favor and look through Argentina's results in 88 and 89, which is when the qualifiers would have happened. List of these great 80s Ecuadorian performers in richer leagues on a postcard, please. I found Diego Cordova (flop), Luis Capurro (flop), Raul Noriega (flop) and of course Copa America super legend Holger Quinonez (guess). Didi flopped at Real and Rush at Juve, and both had success at other major clubs. That's a mile from sucking so bad even Montpellier and Valladolid don't want your permed genius. Valderrama had zero achievements at club level, and on the contrary proved without a shadow of a doubt that he couldn't keep up at even a mid-tempo European level.
Back to case Aldair, I'd like to add he has barely any ESM-votes in the late 90s. He's at the back somewhere hanging out with Ole Tobiasen and Vegard Heggem. An impressive disappearing act from one of the greatest defenders of all time.
Rehhagel's Greece? In 1990? LOL! Okay, if you say so. Then why would they even be relevant to the discussion? Who was better than Valderrama? Herzog? I don't think so. Who was better than Cabañas? Polster? Maybe he was. And was any of their goalkeepers better than Chilavert? Well, Austria did qualify from Europe, and they did actually manage to score against the USA, so maybe they also would have qualified from CONCACAF. From South America I expect they would have had a more difficult time. They didn't perform better than any South American team at that WC. We were talking 1990. I just mentioned 86 as a side note to point out that the team that won the World Cup unbeaten (while beating European qualifiers Bulgaria, Italy, England, Belgium, Germany and drawing with Italy), had a tougher time in the South American qualifiers than they did at the World Cup, losing to a very good Peruvian team on the road, one that I'd expect you also to underrate. And if you prefer to talk about 86, then Netherlands and Belgium had to play each other in a playoff because they lost their group to Poland and Hungary and ended up as "worst" second place teams. Interestingly, Belgium had an excellent World Cup, but eventually lost 2-0 to a Conmebol team, while UEFA group winners Hungary and Poland were very disappointing, with Hungary eliminated in the first round after allowing nine goals, and of course Poland sneaking into the second round but losing 4-0 to another Conmebol team. Those two UEFA group winners might have had a tough time making it from South America, based on their WC results. Practice friendlies? Is that what you base your analysis on? The only meaningful matches that they lost were one to Brazil and one to Uruguay, both very good teams at the time. Of the ones you mentioned, Quiñones was actually good at his peak, although he was irregular. Capurro was decent. Aguinaga clearly the difference maker, one of my favorite South Americans from that era. Byron Tenorio was a solid defender. They played a very defensive style, very difficult to penetrate, limited offensively, but still dangerous with Aguinaga working his magic. I think Montpellier had a style that didn't play to his strengths and that's on the coach, but he still had his moments, he did help them win the French Cup. Valladolid was a total loss, I think he must have been struggling that year, but then he went back to Colombia and played probably his best seasons at Junior, where they did put a team around him that fit his style. As I said, I think based on Stevens criteria he might not qualify as all time great, not because of a couple of seasons in Europe, but because if we look at the results, he was never able to take Colombia to the heights that his talent should have taken them. You can say that ultimately they underachieved. Still, he took them to a level they'd never reached before, led them to play as well and as beautiful as they've ever played, and at his clubs in Colombia and the US he was a pleasure to watch, always the difference maker, by far the best player in his teams, and a great example of why football is called the beautiful game. For me it's hard to imagine someone being a fan of the game and failing to appreciate what Valderrama brought on the field
Highly improbable, given their population and actual strength: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings
Apart of Argentina and Brazil, through its history, Uruguay had been one of the world feeders, since the 1930s, easily in a 2nd group of exporters, not only to top leagues, but consistent feeding mid level leagues. So, overall with its up and down, they had a good depth of class players. Nice, you mention its population, because that curiosity, always was seeing as a "miracle". I guess, is due to football schools, mentality teached from youth, and that football is by miles, the #1 sport. This characteristic of world feeders, I guess was also given to some european countries as Yugoslavia and Nederlands.
Except that Yugoslavia and Netherlands has many more European Cup and UEFA Cup winning players (take out the cups won with a domestic team, and it remains the same). That is one true reflection of being a proper exporter. Former Yugoslavia has had 48 different players playing in the CL final. Uruguay only five players since 1955 (and yes, I know there are also some staying in the SA leagues, but even then..). Former Yugoslavia has 10 times as many! Ten times! That is a major indication. And since 1970, as you can see, they are comparable to Denmark in their level of the national team. They reached the World Cup semi final only once in the last 50 years (admittedly, not an easy group stage there, credit to them). So no, they cannot split themselves up in three proper teams to the World Cup. How are they going to split up Suarez and Cavani in three? This are the only players to have scored 10 or more non-penalty goals in the EC since 1955.
Europa League all-time topscorers (re: 'mid level') https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/eur...ttbewerb/EL/saison_id/gesamt/plus/0/galerie/0 Apart from Suarez and Cavani, there are three more above 10 goals. Fonseca, Pandiani and Forlan all on 11 goals. Still begs the question how they are going to split up in three teams.
I know this has probably been covered before in a number of places but why didn't Savicevic play more for AC Milan? Is there one reason or multiple? I am assuming it must be multiple. I just find it hard to square the idea that he has all of these game winning performances in the biggest games (CL late stages) with the fact that he plays on average half the teams games per season.
They are europeans playing in Europe only, not players having to cross the ocean, playing in a totally diferent environment and culture. So, no surprise to me, there are more awarded players than Uruguay has.
I will be open to reassigning players. I felt Giggs is stuck between two places. The mid 90s is probably his best performances, but his era of greatest fame is with the treble team in the next era.
I said 2 or maybe 3 for Arg/Bra. And emphasize, maybe, a big maybe if you want, for Uruguay. I mean, for the golden generations, not every generation.
Yugoslavia and Spain/England maybe differ as much culturally as Uruguay and Italy/Spain... That's not an insane hypothesis?
My point about dispersion, is: - European players when playing abroad ---> another european country. In the case of Uruguay and another SA, when playing abroad, they go to: ---> european countries / top and class players ---> other SA countries / class and top ---> Concacaf countries / class and decent ---> Asian countries / class and decent
Again I moving through these quickly, input welcome. Once I finish out I will go back and post revisions and exam more closely correct eras, positions etc. 16) Zidane and Ronaldo ~ 1998-2003 This era is defined by Ronaldo and Zidane and the dominance of their national teams. Italian and Spanish teams dominate the European Cup. Players considered Alessandro Del Piero Italy Forward Playmaker Ariel Ortega Argentina Attacking Link Bixente Lizarazu France Wide Defensive Link Cafu Brazil Wide Defensive Link Carlos Gamarra Paraguay Back Marking Celso Ayala Paraguay Back Marking Christian Vieri Italy Forward Goalscorer Claude Makelele France Defensive Link David Beckham England Wide Attacking Link David Trezeguet France Forward Goalscorer Davor Suker Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer Edgar Davids Netherlands Midfield Supporting Emmanuel Petit France Midfield Supporting Fabien Barthez France Goalkeeper Fabio Cannavaro Italy Back Marking Fernando Couto Portugal Back Marking Fernando Hierro Spain Back Supporting Fernando Redondo Argentina Midfield Supporting Francisco Arce Paraguay Wide Back Gary Neville England Wide Back Henrik Larsson Sweden Forward Goalscorer Hernan Crespo Argentina Forward Goalscorer Ivan Helguera Spain Defensive Link Jaap Stam Netherlands Back Marking Javier Zanetti Argentina Wide Defensive Link Jiří Němec Czechoslovakia Midfield Supporting José Luis Chilavert Paraguay Goalkeeper Juan Pablo Sorín Argentina Wide Back Juan Sebastian Veron Argentina Midfield Playmaker Kily González Argentina Wide Attacking Link Lauren Cameroon Wide Defensive Link Lilian Thuram France Wide Back Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link Marc Overmars Netherlands Wide Attacking Link Marcelo Salas Chile Forward Goalscorer Mehmet Scholl Germany Attacking Link Michael Owen England Forward Goalscorer Noureddine Naybet Moracco Back Marking Oliver Bierhoff Germany Forward Goalscorer Oliver Kahn Germany Goalkeeper Paolo Montero Uruguay Back Marking Patrick Kluivert Netherlands Forward Goalscorer Patrick Vieira France Midfield Supporting Patrik Andersson Sweden Back Marking Patrik Berger Czechoslovakia Attacking Link Paul Scholes England Midfield Playmaker Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link Phillip Cocu Netherlands Midfield Supporting Phillipo Inzaghi Italy Forward Goalscorer Predrag Mijatovic Yugoslavia Forward Playmaker Raul Spain Forward Goalscorer Rivaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer Robert Jarni Yugoslavia Wide Defensive Link Robert Pires France Wide Forward Roberto Acuña Paraguay Midfield Playmaker Roberto Ayala Argentina Back Marking Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link Ronaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer Roy Keane Ireland Midfield Supporting Roy Makaay Netherlands Forward Goalscorer Rui Costa Portugal Attacking Link Ryan Giggs Wales Wide Attacking Link Sami Hyypia Finland Back Marking Samuel Kuffour Ghana Back Marking Santiago Cañizares Spain Goalkeeper Sergi Spain Wide Attacking Link Sinisa Mihajlovic Yugoslavia Back Supporting Sol Campbell England Back Marking Stefan Effenberg Germany Midfield Playmaker Thomas Helveg Denmark Wide Defensive Link Vladimír Šmicer Czechoslovakia Midfield Playmaker Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker Qualified All Time Great Alessandro Del Piero Italy Forward Playmaker Bixente Lizarazu France Wide Defensive Link Cafu Brazil Wide Defensive Link Carlos Gamarra Paraguay Back Marking Christian Vieri Italy Forward Goalscorer Claude Makelele France Defensive Link David Beckham England Wide Attacking Link Davor Suker Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer Edgar Davids Netherlands Midfield Supporting Fabien Barthez France Goalkeeper Fabio Cannavaro Italy Back Marking Fernando Hierro Spain Back Supporting Fernando Redondo Argentina Midfield Supporting Jaap Stam Netherlands Back Marking Javier Zanetti Argentina Wide Defensive Link José Luis Chilavert Paraguay Goalkeeper Lilian Thuram France Wide Back Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link Oliver Kahn Germany Goalkeeper Patrick Vieira France Midfield Supporting Paul Scholes England Midfield Playmaker Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link Raul Spain Forward Goalscorer Rivaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer Roberto Ayala Argentina Back Marking Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link Ronaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer Roy Keane Ireland Midfield Supporting Rui Costa Portugal Attacking Link Ryan Giggs Wales Wide Attacking Link Sami Hyypia Finland Back Marking Sol Campbell England Back Marking Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker Qualified Pantheon Lilian Thuram France Wide Back Luis Figo Portugal Wide Attacking Link Pavel Nedved Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link Roberto Carlos Brazil Wide Defensive Link Zinedine Zidane France Midfield Playmaker Main issues here. Ronaldo like Van Basten is just short the ten seasons, no matter how many ways you look at things. Del Piero is a similar case of Johnstone, not an all time great national team career, but it is compensated for by many great international campaigns for club. Gamarra is in. The difference for him vs Valderrama is although both did not work in Europe at the club level, Gamarra is the best defender in Brazil over a long period of time, unlike Valderrama who only has a few strong domestic seasons in Colombia. Raul's national team career is a little short of pantheon. Roy Keane is borderline for pantheon as well, at this point I have him out. Smicer is an interesting player just looking at his resume, does anyone have strong thoughts about his candidacy for all time great?
Vieri his continental record is maybe a bit underwhelming compared to other strikers of his generation? http://www.rsssf.com/players/players-in-ec.html How does England end up with more all-time great players for this era as Netherlands? Don't see it and has no logic. We were one of the best national teams in this era (with some of the more successful CL players and most successful goalscorers) and no fillers.
What other dutch players were you looking for, some may be in the next era. I am unsure about Scholes as well.
Trying to keep things moving, so again input is welcome I am moving fast. 17) Mid 00s Transition ~ 2003-2008 This era is a transition from the Zidane/France Ronaldo/Brazil era to the Spain Ronaldo Messi era. This era features rise to dominance of English clubs and the failure of this golden English generation internationally. This era also features the Ronaldinho Barcelona and Kaka Milan teams and a great Italian side that wins the World Cup. Considered Alessandro Nesta Italy Back Marking Andrea Pirlo Italy Midfield Playmaker Andriy Shevchenko Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer Ashley Cole England Wide Defensive Link Carles Puyol Spain Back Marking Clarence Seedorf Netherlands Midfield Playmaker Cristian Chivu Romania Back Supporting Deco Portugal Midfield Playmaker Dida Brazil Goalkeeper Didier Drogba Ivory Coast Forward Goalscorer Emerson Brazil Midfield Supporting Esteban Cambiasso Argentina Midfield Supporting Federic Kanoute Mali Forward Goalscorer Fernando Torres Spain Forward Goalscorer Francesco Totti Italy Forward Playmaker Frank Lampard England Attacking Link Freddie Ljungberg Sweden Wide Forward Gennaro Gattuso Italy Midfield Supporting Gianluca Zambrotta Italy Wide Defensive Link Gianluigi Buffon Italy Goalkeeper Gilberto Silva Brazil Midfield Supporting Jens Lehmann Germany Goalkeeper John Terry England Back Marking Juan Roman Riquelme Argentina Midfield Playmaker Juninho Brazil Midfield Playmaker Kaka Brazil Attacking Link Kolo Toure Ivory Coast Back Supporting Luca Toni Italy Forward Goalscorer Lucio Brazil Back Supporting Luis Fabinho Brazil Forward Goalscorer Maniche Portugal Midfield Supporting Marcos Senna Spain Midfield Supporting Marek Jankulovski Czechoslovakia Wide Defensive Link Mark Van Bommel Netherlands Midfield Supporting Michaek Essien Ghana Midfield Supporting Michael Ballack Germany Midfield Playmaker Miroslav Klose Germany Forward Goalscorer Pablo Aimar Argentina Attacking Link Pauleta Portugal Forward Goalscorer Petr Cech Czechoslovakia Goalkeeper Ricardo Carvalho Portugal Back Marking Rio Ferdinand England Back Supporting Ronaldinho Brazil Wide Attacking Link Ruud van Nistelrooy Netherlands Forward Goalscorer Shay Given Ireland Goalkeeper Simão Portugal Wide Attacking Link Steven Gerrard England Midfield Playmaker Thierry Henry France Forward Playmaker Tiago Portugal Midfield Supporting Tomáš Rosický Czechoslovakia Attacking Link Torsten Frings Germany Midfield Supporting Walter Samuel Argentina Back Marking William Gallas France Wide Back Willy Sagnol France Wide Defensive Link Ze Roberto Brazil Midfield Supporting Qualified All Time Great Alessandro Nesta Italy Back Marking Andrea Pirlo Italy Midfield Playmaker Andriy Shevchenko Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer Ashley Cole England Wide Defensive Link Carles Puyol Spain Back Marking Clarence Seedorf Netherlands Midfield Playmaker Deco Portugal Midfield Playmaker Didier Drogba Ivory Coast Forward Goalscorer Emerson Brazil Midfield Supporting Esteban Cambiasso Argentina Midfield Supporting Francesco Totti Italy Forward Playmaker Frank Lampard England Attacking Link Gianluca Zambrotta Italy Wide Defensive Link Gianluigi Buffon Italy Goalkeeper John Terry England Back Marking Kaka Brazil Attacking Link Lucio Brazil Back Supporting Mark Van Bommel Netherlands Midfield Supporting Michael Ballack Germany Midfield Playmaker Petr Cech Czechoslovakia Goalkeeper Ricardo Carvalho Portugal Back Marking Rio Ferdinand England Back Supporting Ronaldinho Brazil Wide Attacking Link Ruud van Nistelrooy Netherlands Forward Goalscorer Steven Gerrard England Midfield Playmaker Thierry Henry France Forward Playmaker Pantheon Alessandro Nesta Italy Back Marking Gianluigi Buffon Italy Goalkeeper
I assume Patrick Vieira missed out on the Pantheon list because he was never considered" the best in the world?"
There's a lot of players in the latest era that I would've have expected to have a case for the pantheon. Not saying all of them should, but I definitely thought there would be more than two. I'd like to think that a few from: Pirlo, Puyol, Cole, Seedorf, Terry, Ballack, Cech, Carvalho, Gerrad, and Henry would all be at the cusp.
Initially the two reasons were a plethora of foreign players (including Gullit, Van Basten etc as well as other new signings) that meant due to the rules at the time not all of them could play, and Capello not being a fan (but eventually he puts him in his 'best XI' from time in management so he was won over I guess, and they started to see more eye to eye or be able to tolerate each other more). In 94/95 and 95/96 he had a few minor injuries that saw him miss some games (Wikipedia describes I think the situation in 94/95 - the more positive results when he played and the dispute about whether he was fit for the CL Final with Capello deciding not), and after that his general form/fitness probably was more questionable (and at Intl level he went into the 1998 WC with bad fitness having been injured I think, and didn't really make a great impression or influence things when he came on as sub so in effect his whole prime at major tournaments had been lost in between then and the 1990 WC I think). Like I say, I can see that these things can be problematic in terms of your criteria, although I don't think there'd be much doubt (in general opinion as reflected perhaps by the IFFHS vote or the Serbia/Montenegro Golden Player voting) that he'd be thought of as more of a 'great' than say a Chapuisat (who was nevertheless I believe a very good top level player at his best, and himself probably in decline when he got to play in the 1994 WC with a worldwide audience...though his team did quite well). For me in terms of pure class and level of player at their best I'd go with Savicevic over Stoichkov but that would surely be a more debateable one and I could understand you'd either doubt it based on knowledge or disagree based on footage even potentially. It'd be more of a personal view rather than I guess the widely held view comparing to a Chapuisat, and I probably do value creators more than scorers (in general, not as a blanket rule in every case obviously - eg I'd prefer watching Rui Costa over Batistuta but I'm not sure I'd quite say he was better or more impactful in the grand scheme of things in their prime, though obviously in particular games or runs of games he would be).
Despite not being a Liverpool fan (as a Forest fan maybe I should be the opposite although I wouldn't say that's true really - I had a number of friends who were Liverpool fans over the years although most of them not from Liverpool lol!), I was actually a bit of a fan of Smicer when he went to play for them (and likewise the aforementioned Vegard Heggem actually!; I see now anyway msioux's mentioned players Gamarra and Ayala are making the cut and I do see the logic behind the Gamarra decision, given impressive displays in a WC too anyway and the lower level of acclaim needed for defenders i.e thinking in terms of best defenders in the world rather than best overall players...which to go back to it I still do feel makes Aldair's case more compelling and it might be seen in terms of his later 90s career adding to longevity as a decent contributor rather than being assessed as his prime level given his age - it might be I think that like Giggs and some others he did have a bit of a final revival although just before the Roma championship season since he was out injured quite often during that...as he had been in 93/94 actually). Anyway, after digressing quite a bit there....Smicer for me would not have the level to be seen as an all-time great no. He never really shone enough for Liverpool, but did rack up a decent tally of assists nevertheless. Overall I guess a bit more was expected than delivered (Liverpool is a big club of course) but he had his moments. Houllier was a big fan I tend to think. Along with Nedved and others, I remember that in the latter part of the 90s he was part of a highly-rated fluent Czech team, but again never really a top International star. I'd say it'd have to be a no from me (especially if Savicevic didn't make it as alluded to!).
It's definitely following a pattern (creation>scoring again, albeit with some overlap in terms of the end product stats), but I'd go Pires>Drogba myself, and I guess both have similar cases in terms of being a bit borderline with number of 'great seasons' after taking a little bit of time to bed in (I do think eventually in 2000/01 Pires was playing great as the season ended). But obviously it's your list not mine Tom, and I'd still tend to argue for Savicevic more than Pires (but Pires>Smicer would be clear cut I think to be fair).