The best players to never win a champions league/European cup

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, May 30, 2020.

?

Who is your pick?

This poll will close on May 30, 2025 at 2:40 AM.
  1. Gheorghe hagi

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Romario

    0 vote(s)
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  3. Eric cantona

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Zlatan ibrahimovic

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. George weah

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Rivaldo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Francesco Totti

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Dennis bergkamp

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Ronaldo nazario

    40.0%
  10. Roberto baggio

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Rob resenbrink

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Lothar matthaus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. Diego maradona

    60.0%
  14. Someone else (Please specify)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1 carlito86, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    Who are the best players to feature in the champions league( or its precursor the European cup) but fail to win it?

    And who are the players who displayed the highest peak in European football's premier competition but failed to lift the trophy?


    Please consider both when voting in this poll
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think the best player would have to be Maradona to be fair: following him I'd personally have Ronaldo, perhaps Yashin, Roberto Baggio, Matthaus, Bergkamp, Hagi and Weah next up probably.

    The best CL performances in particular years (highest peak) without winning it is maybe the more interesting question I think (especially as Carlito probably had a mind black on Maradona...like we all do on various subjects at times...certainly I do!). I think Weah in 1994/95 could be a good call but maybe I should give it more thought.
     
    msioux75 and Excape Goat repped this.
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I did lol
    I've since edited him in

    Maradona is the best though for exploits outside of the European cup
    So perhaps(taking into consideration my other question) he may not be a clear cut obvious winner

    I understand anyone though who would be inclined to put him at the top of any list
    Maradona is maradona after all
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, maybe it makes the other question the more interesting indeed (not that some people might not hold the view that R9 was actually better than Maradona or something).

    The next two names I might have come up with after those I listed would have question marks for different reasons I guess: Juan Schiaffino because of the difficulty of comparisons due to his era and also relative lack of footage, and Jurgen Klinsmann because of consistency issues; both with performances overall, but also his first touch even when playing well.

    My initial alternative to Weah for the other question was probably Hagi in his run with Steaua Bucharest in 88/89 (prompted in my brain by your posts about it if anything maybe!).
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #5 PuckVanHeel, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    FourFourTwo had in 2019 this top 25 (not saying I agree with the ordering):

    1. Ronaldo
    2. Buffon
    3. Ibrahimovic
    4. Bergkamp
    5. Totti
    6. Baggio
    7. Cannavaro
    8. Ballack
    9. Thuram
    10. Vieira
    11. Nedved
    12. Van Nistelrooij
    13. Cantona
    14. Crespo
    15. Chiellini
    16. Batistuta
    17. Fabregas
    18. Shearer
    19. Weah
    20. Alexis Sanchez
    21. Pires
    22. Philip Cocu
    23. Blanc
    24. Campbell
    25. Owen


    A different list by Sky Sports this week named 50 players (where I think the ordering was less important as the selection): Klose, Shovkovskiy, Campbell, Ginola, Zambrotta, Alexis Sanchez, Van Persie, Montero, Kompany, Klinsmann, Chiellini, Fabregas, Cocu, Adams, Thuram, Yashin, Nedved, David Silva, Hagi, Shearer, Blanc, Owen, Cavani, Hazard, Dino Zoff, Mancini, Berbatov, Cannavaro, Crespo, Pogba, Ballack, Pires, Weah, Van Nistelrooij, Batistuta, Zola, Aguero, Vieira, Totti, Bobby Moore, Bergkamp, Ibrahimovic, Matthaus, Cantona, Lewandowski, Baggio, Buffon, Romario, Ronaldo, Maradona.


    Maybe there a distinction can be made between the quality of the player and the best to actually perform there.

    So for example Ronaldo is a credible number one, but in terms of actually performing in the Champions League he's lower down (other than the Old Trafford hat-trick, how many other notable performances against the good teams?). Van Nistelrooij however really performed consistently against the very best teams of his time, and was apart from a goalscorer also in contention for the assist honors.

    In the same way Lewandowski is a better call as Ibrahimovic (yes, I'm aware there are are/were mumbles about Lewandowski not doing it in KO stages and against the best teams for Bayern; not as consistent as expected at least).

    Others are also at a disadvantage here. Bobby Moore for example never played there because, well, he never became league champion. Bergkamp only started to play there when he was 29 years old (he had become champion with Ajax, but Ajax was banned by UEFA). He still had a handful-to-dozen great moments and great games in the Champions League (the Lazio, the Juventus assists, later finalists Leverkusen, Dortmund etc.) I'd think but it's not ideal. Instead he won two UEFA Cups as the #10 (three finals with three different teams), and a Cup Winners Cup (plus a CWC runners-up medal, a UEFA Cup runners-up medal).

    I think the listed Holland players are pretty decent (e.g. Cocu scoring in the 2000 and 2005 semi finals; RvP scoring against a few of the best teams of his time like Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez Man United, great goal against Pep's Barcelona, hat-trick against Klopp's Dortmund). For Belgium maybe De Bruyne merits it to be named ahead of Hazard, in terms of actually performing in the CL (for admittedly a stronger and better organization).
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    One player not named in any posts yet who I'd at least be thinking (rightly or wrongly - it's without certainty and anyway not clear cut I think) might be among names I'd consider as borderline top 50 players all-time if I try to make my list (along with mentioned players like Romario or Totti) is Dragan Dzajic.

    From Wikipedia:
    "Semi-final defeat[edit]
    European Champion Clubs' Cup success very nearly came his way too. In the 1970–71 season, Red Star Belgrade reached the semi-finals of the top continental club competition, and beat Panathinaikos FC 4–1 in the first leg in Belgrade. Džajić was suspended for the return in Athens, however, which the Greek team won 3–0 to go through on away goals. "

    But yeah, I do think if looking at peak as best level that could be shown and was shown in particular Champions League games (as opposed to level over a campaign as a whole like I assumed Carlito probably meant) then as well as possibly Ronaldo based on that Old Trafford game as prime example (but I think his true peak in European competition would be in the Uefa and Cup Winners Cups really...and maybe it would be argued games like vs Spartak Moscow were better performances than that one vs Man Utd even too?), certainly Bergkamp could be mentioned I think Puck it's true: any idea people might have he wasn't able to be great vs Italian defences would be disproved by assists like against Lazio (with Nesta) or Juventus (with Thuram), and he also played very well indeed (in terms of skills shown, but also scoring a neat goal) vs Barcelona in 99-00 even though Arsenal lost the game.
     
  7. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Maradona and R9 are the obvious choices due to the fact being ranked among the greatest ever, but both as mentioned did little in the competition. On the other hand, Buffon "deserves" a bigger mention. He has been on the losing side in three finals with Juventus. Matthaus was also a few seconds away from winning one.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He 'suffers' from being past his prime at two of these finals. See the chart here (and it's 'easier' to save for a more defensive team):



    Then for the 2004 to 2010 period Juventus wasn't competitive in Europe. In the 2004-05 UCL campaign only 6 goals against in 11 games.

    For the 2002-03 campaign he had penalty saves in the shoot-out of the final, and stopped Figo's penalty in the semi final. At this point the press was saying penalties were his only weakness but showing up here helped him to win individual honors and get elected UEFA Club footballer of the year.

    He conceded 16 goals in 15 games; maybe that is not so impressive for a defensive team with two defensive full-backs, and a designated defensive midfielder. Here he has a true howler in the campaign against Newcastle (losing the match) and other examples as the goal here (3:00) where he maybe could do better.

    In other words, he was well possibly at his best in the Champions League when his team was not (1997-98, 2001-02, 2004-05). 2003-04 was a weak campaign for him, said the Italian press and media almost unanimously too, where his handful mistakes cost Juventus the title.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    To add to this:
    Gheorghe hagi played against stacked real Madrid on August 13th 1989 in the Teresa herrera trophy which was an annual pre season friendly tournament
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Herrera_Trophy
    https://www.telekomsport.ro/video-e...ra-1989-imagini-difuzate-in-premiera-17696056


    He promptly destroyed this team like he did to most of the teams he faced in the 88/89 European cup

    Hagi (at his peak for steaue Bucharest)is for me the player who most resembled Maradona
    If you merged the left foot of Rivaldo with the athleticism and dribbling of Diego youd get a player that was very similar to hagi

    I don't think prime hagi was perhaps as consistent a dribbler but during his best games there is literally no difference

    Those assists above are comparable to anything maradona did in his Argentinos days or for Boca


    For me I'm going

    Hagi 88/89 As the highest peak in a champions league by a non champion

    Maradona is perhaps considered correctly to have achieved the higher peak at international level(86)
    Although Hagi had great showings at both the 90 and 94 WCs

    league level also goes to Maradona

    although it has to be considered Hagi scored 237 league goals
    even if many of those came in questionable league's with questionable(to put it lightly)goal averages
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988–89_Divizia_A


    Hagi is must be said has a clear edge at continental level
    http://www.rsssf.com/players/hagi-in-ec.html
    Some of hagis best ever goals/performances were in the EC/UEFA cup
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Dzajic looks as a good call for actually performing there, albeit for only two or three seasons (of the six). Hagi looks a good one too - the good thing was he could play his passes and through-balls with pace.


    The players with the most CL appearances without winning are:

    1. Buffon
    2. Ibrahimovic
    3. Fabregas
    4. Ballack
    5. Fernandinho
    6. Lewandowski
    7. Higuain
    8. Cocu
    9. Pires
    10. Nedved


    As further example of the distinction I want to make: as an overall player Cantona should be somewhere among the 50 names (since 1992). But in the sense of actually performing there, relative to the matches played, it is disappointing. More so than Bergkamp or Zola imho (Zola another one who was 'old' before he got the chances to play).
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here is in brief what I think about your options:

    Hagi: as you kind of spelled out yourself, he is a good option in the sense of actually performing.

    Romario: bit of a mixed bag. He was twice EC topscorer (on the back of scoring against Luzern, Steaua, Vilnius, AEK, Porto and 1 goal against Milan), but only scored 2 goals in 1993-94. Very patchy record overall in numbers and performance.

    Cantona: played only 24 games there, but even then quite sub par I think. Goals came against Fenerbahce, Porto, Rapid Wien, Stuttgart, Rangers, Kispest, Galatasaray.

    Maradona: didn't do a damn thing here. Two goals against the Hungarian champs is all there is. Otherwise some average performances against Real Madrid, Spartak Moscow etc. No matter how the latin cabal likes to twist it, one really good performance in eight games will not cut it. Two goals and 0 assists in eight games doesn't cut it. Some fans claim this competition wasn't important to him, but the documentary shows otherwise (with a remark by himself at the time).

    Ibrahimovic: strong in the group stages, often abysmal in the knock-out stages. Poorer as any other top class striker.

    Weah: a pretty solid option imho. There is 1994-95 but also a few other campaigns.

    Rivaldo: he actually won the Champions League in 2003 with Milan! Some spectacular performances in the group stages, but in the 2nd group stage and knock-out stage - when he could elevate his team - generally outperformed by team-mates (really). Not productive in the 2nd group stage.

    Totti: that he struggles to rise above 10 non-penalty goals in the competition says a lot.

    Of the rest of your list I also think Matthaus is a good option. He had his faults at the back end of his career (howlers against United etc) but in accumulation and peak level (1986-87) still a solid option.

    Ronaldo his best CL games took place in 1998 against Real Madrid and then ofc the Old Trafford hat-trick (some say Barthez didn't do well there, but okay)
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #12 carlito86, Jul 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020

    Ive looked into it a little bit and he seems a real contender for best player in the world during 1988-1990

    His form just never got the credit it deserved due to the ban on English clubs participating in continental club competitions

    I don't see too many other real contenders at domestic/league level

    gullit,maradona,matthaus
    Perhaps van basten and hagi

    But Barnes was in that conversation
    Or his form at least warranted that he be placed in that discussion

    Barnes was an inverted winger and scored 75 goals in 178 appearences between 87/88 And 90/91

    some goals of superlative quality

    Tonnes of quality winger assists and playmaking



    He was a 2× PL player in 1988 and 1990

    A 3× PFA team of the year inclusion

    Was a key component of arguably the best domestic side in English football history 1987/88 Liverpool

    Perhaps there is a case he should be given consideration
     

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