I put the difference between Pulisic and Reyna in terms that you can agree on. You know I don’t think TM values are worth much when comparing players. Especially players that play on different continents. The way I see it, from an understanding of player growth and psychology instead of stats and numbers is that Gio being a young player is going to be more prone to inconsistent days than an older player such as Pulisic. I think this is important because the only way a player like Lliget out plays a player like Gio is if Gio is having an off day. What are some concerning factors that could throw off Gio? Well with the USMNT there is a new coach, new system, complete foreign group of players, and if the 1st game is a traveling game into Cental America there would be a lot more to deal with. A simple camp and assessment of how he fits in with the new group of players is all some posters are asking for before anointing him a starter and core player. It’s not unreasonable. I’m not really sure why there’s even an argument here because there is zero chance Gio will start a game until he gets into a camp and earns his spot. To be clear, I think it’s important that someone beats out Lliget for the #10 spot.
Yes you didn’t say they were “the same” You said “ the chance was just about the same” You can see my other post that explains my opinion on why I don’t agree with you on that. PS, you have misrepresented my TM value. I’m sure there’s a pub team somewhere that would at the very least cover my beer tab if I agreed to play with them
Now that it appears that you've acknowledged that "you said Gio was the same as Pulisic" was wrong, we can discuss the "he has to get into camp and earn a spot" mentality. There's no question that Gio has to be called into camp - he's one of the the most talented players on the team as it appears you've acknowledged. So the question isn't about a camp invitation but how we spend the limited camp time we have. The question is how Berhalter uses this limited time - does he make Gio play with the second team at the beginning of camp assuming that Lletget (or Holmes or whomever) can stay with the first team (if he does that, he's effectively benching Gio for Lletget if the first camp is short as there simply wouldn't be enough time to intergrate with the first team)? Or does he realize that the limited camp time is spent better off getting Gio as familiar with the first team as possible and adjusting the system so that it puts a high impact player like Gio in a position that accentuates his strengths and mitigates his developmental area (which is what we need to do with all of our core players)? In a football analogy, do they simplify the playbook for a highly talented rookie who has the potential to be among the best of all time or do they sit the player who's obviously better than their existing placeholder? You mentioned getting used to a new system: I'd note that according to general BS consensus, Gregg has presumably moved away from his regista-based system that he insisted on playing all year up until the last game. If so, the team is effectively moving to a new system and it would be best to have Reyna there from the get-go as he's a difference maker, rather than just a minor league placeholder. Next, you stated that "only way a player like Lliget out plays a player like Gio is if Gio is having an off day" and that's true but I'd add that it only applies if Lletget also doesn't have an off day (for him). Furthermore, the upside of Gio RIGHT NOW (not the @tomásbernal projective ceiling) is so much higher than the upside for Lletget or any other attacking player outside of Pulisic. The question then is: how likely is it that Gio will have an off day? how likely is it Lletget won't have an off day? how low is Gio's off day compared to an expected Lletget? 1. I'd posit that everything we've seen from Gio is that he doesn't get fazed by the moment and that he shows an ability well beyond his years. BVB obviously trust him to play at the highest level of the game and he didn't wilt at all there. The chance that a Hex match is so stressful that it causes Gio to have a terribly off day is much lower IMO than stepping onto a field vs. PSG for a UCL knock-out match but Arena has intimated that CONCACAF is much tougher than those over-rated Big 4 players realize (SMH). Here's a recent quote from an old-time BS poster whom I respect: I wouldn't assume that a player like Gio would wilt. 2. Sebastian has never played in an away CONCACAF event so there's limited reason for me to think that he'd be meaningfully less likely to have an off-game than Reyna in a "traveling game into Cental America". I don't think that playing an entire minor league career gives all that much benefit when a player is asked to step up in level. I'd say the same thing for a non-star mid-career Korean league baseball player who somehow gets to play in MLB. 3. In speaking with my friends who are fans of the MexNats and the Ticos, they flat out state that the core of their defensive plan is to smother Pulisic and they're happy to take their chances with every other attacker (same with how they defend vs. Canada, although they respect David). They're watching Reyna closely and stated that when he starts playing, they may have to switch their defensive strategy to a more balanced one as they think that he's a player for whom you should account. It begs the question of how does Sebastian make Pulisic more effective? I also think that Gio would have to have a bottom decile type game to be near the Lletget level - possible but unlikely. TLDR: why would we field a squad that limits our upside because we're afraid that a high ceiling attacking player has an off-day? That's telling our squad and our opposing team either that we're scared or we think that not only is Gio very likely to have an off day but that Lletget wouldn't have one.
Reyna came into the Dortmund/Bayern game that was vital to underdog BVB's chance and we're thinking that there's a strong probability that he's going to get fazed in the Hex. Yeah, I don't think so.
I’m sorry. You put a lot of work into this post but nothing you posted was anything I didn’t already consider when I made my opinion about how he should be handled. I don’t think a discussion about this is really worth the time. I know this is just speculation but I really think Reyna will be competing with Morris for the wing spot. We both agree he should play the #10 spot, but I just don’t think GB will take the risk of playing him there 1st. The counter point to this is that Mihilovic went into the first camp as a young kid and ended up winning a starting spot as a #10. So there’s that.
lol. So you posted just to create a red herring (you said reyna was as good as Pulisic)! apparently you think that the probability is that UCL knockout players reyna who just played in the Bayern/Dortmund game shouldn’t start for the USMNT and we should instead start guys who will never be of the quality to play for either of those teams. You say this knowing that the only way reyna isn’t better in a game than lletget is if Gio has a terrible game while Sebastian has a good one and that there’s little reason to believe that will happen. Nice.
WTF?? Are you totally delusional? None of what you say here is what @Calling BS said, intimated, or alluded to.
Yes, I do, hence my response. @Calling BS didn't say, suggest or intimate anything that you say they did.
For a normally rationale poster, I have no idea why you've become so unhinged lately. I'll walk you through it though. First, @Calling BS jumps into a conversation with a red herring by erroneously stating that I said that Reyna was the same at Pulisic when I certainly didn't. Later, he stated that "the only way a player like Lliget out plays a player like Gio is if Gio is having an off day." So, if he believes that, what's the point of playing Lletget over Gio unless he's expecting Gio to have an off-day and that Lletget wouldn't? I noticed you refused to answer the similar point below as well as it appears, as usual, you seem to fear being "trapped" by your words. Why is "highly unlikely" lletget will be better than Pulisic but apparently you don’t think it’s “highly unlikely” that lletget will be better than Gio? Or do you also think it's "highly unlikely" that Lletget will be better than Gio but we should sit Gio anyway?
By the way, the first time I saw Pulisic come of the bench for Dortmund I could tell he would be a star. Gio plays in an area of the pitch that's a lot more crowded, so it's more difficult for him to stand out, so I'm still not convinced. I'll keep watching.
Dude, I've told you several times. There is hardly anything to go on at this point with Reyna, and we haven't seen him with the NT either. I'm not "unhinged". I'm very much rational, and you are reading the clouds in peoples' posts.
except for the part where he’s earned a rotation spot at the top of the B1, has played in every game since he debuted (other than a game he was going to strart by ws injured one warmups) and just played in a must win BVB game vs. Bayern. What person says that’s “hardly anything”? It goes to my point that MLS fans drastically overvalue the league - no one other than MLS fans here would say a peep about an non-star championship/B2 players who was immediately pushed down for an emerging star who emerged at the UCL level. if you can’t see how @Calling BS said (the part where he straight up said that Gio would only be worse than lletget is if he was off his game) applied to my post, I don’t know what to tell you other than it’s basic reading comprehension.
Now he has ~200 minutes. He's looked good for most of them. He still hasn't been in a USMNT camp and gotten a cap (not his fault). I think he's a very good prospect and am hopeful he fulfills the promise we all see. I'm not overvaluing any player or any league. You damn well know I think Lletget is a mediocre player. But your last post, where you blasted @Calling BS, was completely off-the-rails bullshit. And you goddamned well know it.
But you can't make him drink. Ya know, maybe that water is tainted with the sewage from all the other horses who haven't made it this far downstream before, and the horse knows it.
You misunderstood me. My position is that he should have to earn his spot in camp. I don’t think GB should have a set 1st team or 2nd team when camp starts. Players should be moved around throughout the 1st couple of days looking for the best combination. But there’s so much unknown about the situation when that camp will actually happen. It’s just too much speculation for me to be even interested in a discussion about it. I don’t know what the 1st paragraph is referring to. I think Gio has a long way to go to prove he is anywhere near Pulisic. Even your trusted TM values say so.
There was more to that post. I went over all the reasons why a reasonable coach could be concerned about Gio not playing well for the Nats at the start. One last thing, I don’t know what your playing experience is, but have you ever had to play a tournament with an entirely new team?
I don't see Dortmund challenging for the title anymore. Nor are they really at risk of falling out of the UCL spots. I thought Favre was kind of dumb or scared or inept by starting the same 11 as had played the previous games. Many had played every minute. With almost all the pressure off, and Favre himself not likely coming back, and with Favre loving Gio, I'd expect Reyna to get quite a few starts. Sancho came back to the club unfit and I doubt he gets many starts, except as punishment. Brandt has been great, but showed he can't do 270' in 10 days. Hazard too looked tired. Gotze has already left the club mentally and Reus is out for the rest of the season. By the time the USMNT ever plays again, Reyna will most likely have a handful of starts, 800-1000 minutes, and be in the plans for major time next season. He will clearly be in the USMNT pool. I don't know if someone is even arguing that is not the case. But at that point, he is beyond just a guy called into camp. He will be one of the players that Gregg is judged on. So far, Gregg has consistently played McKennie out of position, played Adams out of position, and has not been able to get Pulisic the ball in dangerous spots consistently. Gregg has not maximized his best players and Reyna will be added to that group. Gio will be a player that Gregg has to integrate and maximize, not just evaluate in camp.
I don't think anyone is arguing that any player should have to earn his spot in camp. That is obvious. The discussion and potential issue at hand, is that Egg has consistently shown that the players he decides have "earned" their spot are not the best players, in most fans' minds. The results through his first couple years in charge have been atrocious. So you either, a. think he is selecting the best players and our team just stinks or b. think he isn't selecting the best players, and prefer the team to be built around the players performing in the world's best leagues. That's ultimately the issue at hand. Everyone agrees Reyna is in the 23 now. It's whether he should be considered a building block. I think he should earn that spot in camp, I think his club performances/standing show that he is currently among our most talented players, and if Egg doesn't think he "earned" it, I would not agree. Basically, I trust Dortmund scouts/coaches more than I do Egg's talent identification abilities. I'm still waiting for anyone who doesn't think he's a building block to provide a # of minutes/starts he needs to have before he is "established" and ready to be a key member of the US setup.
There is no specific number of minutes or games or starts. All I know is that 200 minutes isn't enough to pen him into a USMNT starting lineup. He'll hopefully get another 400 minutes by the end of the season, and by the next camp (at the end of August, if it happens) he'll be one or two games into the next season (maybe). We'll see him in that camp, barring injury, and hopefully he'll show well enough to earn some solid minutes. Would have been really nice for him to have been in the March camp so that Berhalter and the rest of the team could be familiar with him before WCQ starts, but them's the breaks.