The best games of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #626 PuckVanHeel, May 2, 2020
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
    Baresi the joint highest of the Milan defensive players (with Costacurta) looks generous indeed. Had really numerous errors with the ball and defensively. Needed some fouls to save the situation. Just not his best game. I would have given Maldini a higher grade than him.

    Van Basten the joint highest (with Donadoni) of the Milan attacking players looks right. Personally would have given a 6.5 rather than a 5.5. He did have some neat and effective moves, a few dangerous crosses or flick ons, and forced a good save by Barthez, although his effectiveness was down after Boli tackled him from behind. See my two above posts with scenes, post 614 and 620.

    Barthez easily merits a 7 like @wm442433 says.

    edit: wm442433 writes on his blog
    "He is however on the Milan team that confronts its best enemy in Europe, Marseille, in the Champions League final in May. For the pleasure of every football fans, even if he seems diminished physically, MVB enters well in his match and provides a very good performance. But OM has scored just before the half-time after that Milan missed several chances and the French-men will save the 1-0 win. MVB was subbed out at the 86th minute. Despite some attempts to return, it would be his last match."
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Have seen the Juventus vs Monaco game of 1998 (semi final) on the UEFA app.

    Very good game by Deschamps, Di Livio and Davids here. Maybe Zidane as well.

    However, there were a few challenges where Davids can count himself lucky to have received the benefit of doubt (which he didn't get in the world cup). Not always easy to see or judge this because of the lack of replays.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #628 PuckVanHeel, May 9, 2020
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    Peculiarly, Manchester United's own fans voted Jaap Stam as man of the match, despite the unlucky deflected goal.

    [​IMG]

    Not surprising how that has fallen by the wayside over time....

    Stam vs Scholes/Keane
    Vidic vs Ferdinand
    Carvalho vs Terry
    Dijk vs Henderson/Gomez

    While peak level Keane himself has fallen by the wayside next to Scholes.

    The power of SkySports cabal in action (@Tom Stevens).
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #629 PuckVanHeel, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
    carlito86 and wm442433 repped this.
  5. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    he was truly fantastic in that "more or less new role" during that campaign, especially in the final yes.

    for the part about leadership, I read recently that he re-motivated Seedorf too (before and possibly also during the final iirc) who at this point possibly "thought" he was "arrived", advised him about never stopping to work, that every game is important, in the positioning too).
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, where did you read that if I may ask? It's still the youngest team ever (average age) to win the European Cup...
     
  7. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    FF, just after the Final or in the sum-up of the season a few weeks after.
    I haven't re-watch but it says also that Seedorf was not very good during the final.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I think that's right. He was one of the best though in the semi final, in which Rijkaard was not at his very best and made some errors.. Rijkaard said after the final on television that he will win more European Cups than himself did.
     
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  9. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am part of the Sky Sports cabal? I am the person who excluded Dixie dean from my list.

    I have not even addressed any of the players you mentioned.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No, I am not saying that. I do not bracket you there.
     
  11. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Phil McNulty, the BBC Chief Football Correspondent, has picked the 10 best performances he has seen where he has been present in the stadium:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52689386

    Michael Owen v Germany (2001)
    Ronaldo v Germany (2002)
    Ashley Cole v Portugal (2002)
    Andrey Arshavin v Liverpool (2008)
    Cristiano Ronaldo v Arsenal (2009)
    Lionel Messi v Man Utd (2009)
    Gareth Bale v Inter (2010)
    David Silva v Man Utd (2011)
    Didier Drogba v Bayern Munich (2012)
    Mo Salah v Roma (2018)
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  13. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Van Basten vs Göteborg (European Cup 1992)

    Guerin Sportivo’s rare perfect grade of a 10, only given to apparently 3 players over the years (Maradona, Fonseca and Van Basten).

    17104A3E-934C-444E-8B70-FFF527176D04.jpeg
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes interesting. Almost looks like he 'originally' got an eight or so but they thought afterwards "let's give him a 10" against the last eight teams. There was also a harshly cancelled goal, it's here on 3:05. From attackers less was tolerated as defenders.
     
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  15. ChizzyChisnall

    Feb 2, 2017
    Club:
    AC Siena
    I found the match and uploaded on youtube.

     
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  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    He was considered to have played very well, with many touches that instilled fear into Parma’s defense. I found a Guerin Sportivo report of that game and he was awarded man of the match.

    61EACF31-71CF-4877-BD75-78774B612E7A.jpeg
     
  17. ChizzyChisnall

    Feb 2, 2017
    Club:
    AC Siena
    Thank you for providing the extra details. Look forward to the 1997-98 season reports.
     
  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    You are welcome.
     
  19. ChizzyChisnall

    Feb 2, 2017
    Club:
    AC Siena
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Great game this at the age of 35 against the emerging Juventus machine:



    Finished 2nd in the league in the last season of that Milan team, after which many players left. In the 38th round and his last Milan game the winning assist for Inzaghi's only goal that campaign. Strangely, in 2012-13 without all those players and a on paper low quality XI they finished (distant) 3rd; the fall to lower places came in subsequent seasons.
     
  21. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #648 PuckVanHeel, Sep 23, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
    As midfielder he was after the break the best in the world I think, better than Thiago too, with important moments against Dortmund and in the final. The numbers, which Thiago lacks, work in his favor (on the other hand, the Index scores aren't as high as you'd expect so there are things that move it down a little bit). So I'd disagree with the UEFA vote.

    I think there is no guarantee that if he had grown up elsewhere he would run as much (for a number of reasons), or had surfaced as well and as early, with the route to become a semi-homegrown emblem of a club closed off (think of Maldini, Giggs, Puyol, Iniesta, Lahm).

    He's a player that works better, is more noticeable, in a team on the front foot and going well. In another thread you compare him with Matthaus but Matthaus - and some other dominant midfielders of that time - would also look fine in an average team (you can deduce this yourself from the links below on his strengths and weaknesses). I think it is therefore not a given he always and everywhere surfaces. Modric of a few years back is also noticeable in an average side, just as De Jong against Italy recently (when swimming against the tide). I don't think Kimmich is that player.

    Although versatile (can be an okay/adequate central defender too), I think he's better as midfielder than as full-back, especially from a defensive point of view and positionally (ESM included him in the team of the year last season for the first time as a full-back, but not this season). He has the tendency to follow the ball too much or be out of position as full-back.

    Before the lockdown there were up and downs, with if the team goes down (under pressure, under counter-attacks) him going down as well.

    See the discussions here (those pages for example, use translate):

    https://www.transfermarkt.com/joshua-kimmich-6-/thread/forum/10/thread_id/1929000/page/19
    https://www.transfermarkt.nl/joshua-kimmich-6-/thread/forum/10/thread_id/1929000/page/38
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/joshua-kimmich-6-/thread/forum/10/thread_id/1929000/page/42
    https://www.transfermarkt.nl/joshua-kimmich-6-/thread/forum/10/thread_id/1929000/page/44

    As for relative strengths and weaknesses, I think this below is pretty accurate. The hardest to replicate is however the 'intelligence' part, more so when he or his team has the ball, which I'd rate higher than for ex. Kroos when both play together (without ball there are defects, at full-back, like shown at WC2018).

    Show Spoiler
    Age: 25 (08/02/1995)

    Height: 176 cm
    Weight: 73 kg

    Injury Tolerance: B
    Foot: R
    Side: R

    Attack: 78
    Defence: 73
    Balance: 77
    Stamina: 94
    Top Speed: 79
    Acceleration: 82
    Response: 83
    Agility: 83
    Dribble Accuracy: 84
    Dribble Speed: 77
    Short Pass Accuracy: 84
    Short Pass Speed: 83
    Long Pass Accuracy: 93
    Long Pass Speed: 83
    Shot Accuracy: 73
    Shot Power: 79
    Shot Technique: 74
    Free Kick Accuracy: 73
    Curling: 87
    Header: 67
    Jump: 73
    Technique: 86
    Aggression: 78
    Mentality: 78
    Keeper Skills: 50
    Teamwork: 87

    Condition/Fitness: 5
    Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
    Weak Foot Frequency: 5

    ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/3

    NEW STATS:
    Attack Prowess: 78
    Defense Prowess: 73
    Ball Winning: 75

    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=33457&start=60#p613995
    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=33457&start=40#p611696

    Or Football Manager:

    [​IMG]

    The most arguable thing here is 'leadership' but in the way the engine phrases this, it is more understandable.

    "leadership is a reflection of how much a player can influence their teammates on the pitch" ---> compare GoalImpact assessment of the team


    Anyway, see and read those links for yourself and make your own conclusion, but you asked mine and therefore this general direction.

    Based on the last few months (since June) I'd say he is the best midfielder in the world in the way he and his team functions. His main strengths are the long balls and - notably - the 'intelligence' or decisions he makes (although maybe not always dependable as above links and this by a compatriot have noted), in combination with a certain end product and workrate. Weak points is, e.g., that he has his matches with 3+ registered bad touches in a match (I refer to the links above). 'Voetbal International' has included him many times over.
     
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  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid


    WOW
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord




    Joe Gomez also really good and at world beating standards, just as about five other Liverpool players against Arsenal. Only Robertson and Firminho were a little bit off beat. Keita very strong.

    VvD played 77 passes in one half (some stated he broke Thiago his 'record' but that's only for players playing one half). Impressive range of passes and from different field positions, honestly.
     
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