I first noticed it when Pomykal was changed from wing to CM in the U20 WC and noticed how many more fires he put out out than his peers. It was liking watching a net replace a spear. So basically, in comparison. Since then, I've been on the watch out for it and it's noticeable not just in his coverage but also his 1v1 skills. How to evaluate? Alas, I'm not privy to those numbers but that's my guess.
About that article. I appreciate the effort. But it's loaded down with potential. I'm not sure that Indiana Vassilev is going to be a surefire USMNT contributor. But he's already played games in the EPL. Is he really the 38th best prospect? Doesn't actually doing it mean something? And if the No. 5 player is going to surpass Sergino Dest, and the No. 2 player is also an outside back, does that mean we're going to have 3 guys who are going to play outside back on a top-of-the-top team? I'm optimistic about the future of the team. But I'm skeptical about this.
Of the highlight packages and scattered YNT games I've seen, I would put Otasowie and Kayo ahead of a lot of the players being rated ahead of them in these lists. When I watched Kayo's highlights, I see a 6'1 guy winning physical challenges, overwhelming other players physically, and making decisions without having to put the brake on. When I see a player like Konrad, I see a guy who makes a tricky play with great vision, but then the defender always seems to recover. When i watch Cardoso's highlights, I wonder, why do all of his highlights take place when the defense is laying off?
people grow within their bodies, at different rates. People like mendez are just pencils. How do you throw a 130 pound 18- year old into the top-level adult ranks? You would have to be Messi level or at the minimum, pulisic. The only player I saw ever saw form a US perspective who was very Messi like was Mukelle Akale. But he is like 5'1 and Messi is like 5'7. it was real shame Akale just never grew. we are going to have to Wait until these kids at least grow into their bodies. Growth plates down fuse until 21-23 and males usually develop later than females.
Kayo is a track star. He looks great on a highlight reel because of the things you mentioned. Then you see him during a game, and he struggles a lot with basic things like ball control, tracking runners, processing the game around him, completing basic passes.
If all these 17 year olds are better than Dest and older prospects, why did they get stomped at the World Cup?
1. minimal chemistry in the group unlike past u17 cycles. This led to ball hog Gio Reyna who thought that he had to do it all himself. Ricardo Pepi had minimal service. Griffin Yow who is not a good player was a starter. Busio is not a creative player to provide Gio and Pepi service and he was the team's 10 which was doomed for failure. There was no attacking presence from the fullbacks who were both very poor players. 2. very poorly put together midfield. Busio is not a ynt level 10, Leyva needs a center mid with him that can boss the midfield and not get ran over but instead he was playing next to Adam Saldana...that will never work 3. very poorly put together defense. The best player on the backline (Kobe Hernandez-Foster) was playing out of position at center back instead of left back. The team's actual left back (Adam Armour) was trash. Tayvon Gray was the other center back when in reality he should probably be a 6 or starting at RB. Joe Scally is not a good right back as well and somehow manages to be the best RB in the 2002 class. It has been said numerous times, the 2002's were a terrible age group. It does not help that the player evaluation was also very bad in my opinion. This lineup would have done better: Odunze Joe Scally - Nico Carerra - Bobby Pierre - Kobe Hernandez Cameron Dunbar - Danny Leyva - Bryang Kayo - Gio Reyna Ricardo Pepi - Alphonso Ocampo-Chavez
I know that the CB of the U17 cycle were poor but I don't see what help Pierre could bring to the team. He struggles in U17 WC matches with Haiti. It's just my opinion but I think that not all the players with good athletics are YNT level players or with projection.
I think Bobby would’ve been better than the other CB’s we had. An actual natural LCB would’ve been great to have even if he was shaky with distribution
People underestimate the value of a natural LCB; however, shaky distribution is never acceptable if you are trying to build out of the back (a la Kleiban). That U17 team didn't have any defined playing style...for many reasons. I disagree with Carrera, he would have been a huge liability in the back but maybe without Gray there, he was the only choice.
I think LCB are not underestimated, but if you don't have a good player in position, it's unnecessary. Josh Ramsey is an LCB and he is much better defensively and technically than Pierre, I think the only advantage Pierre has over Ramsey is his physique. I don't think Pierre is a mediocre player but he is an average player and he is being overrated, although I respect opinions.
I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not as familiar with Pierre's game as I am with Ramsey's. Bobby probably brings some (albeit limited) USL-C experience that Ramsey doesn't...yet. Agree. Ramsey is technical but as you point out, he doesn't have CB size -or speed-. He gets in trouble easily and resorts to fouling often. See his disciplinary record below. http://solr.ussoccerda.com/sam/teams/index.php?team=12101560&player=872332477
Sergio Ramos has a terrible disciplinary record. I think people often make too much of a player’s size at CB. Any player who isn’t 6’0 is usually considered too short to play CB. I don’t know his exact height, but it’s not a problem in youth soccer, which is the discussion here. I also don’t think players at 5’9/5’10 should be disqualified from playing CB. I think we do this too easily in this country and it leads to us producing a lack of talented CB’s technically.
Sergio Ramos doesn't play youth soccer in the states and thus your comment is moot regarding his disciplinary record. Having a loaded disciplinary record in youth soccer is worth highlighting. You seem to watch a lot of youth soccer games. Do you remember who was playing CB with Ramsey at his club? Take a look at that guy's loaded disciplinary record as well. That guy is over 6' 3'' and playing in Europe now. The disciplinary record comment had nothing to do with height and more with a potential correlation b/w his game's limitations and overcompensating for them by fouling. Ramsey is a technical player; he adds a certain bite to his game. If he can overcome any deficiencies of his game that make him foul so much, his game will gain so much. He didn't make the U17 WC roster and that's not really a knock on him; player pool was limited, coaching staff was new, etc. The discussion on Ramsey (and most of the U17 WC pool) at this point goes beyond youth soccer though; he's now rostered on a USL-C team. That said, you have made it well known how you feel about associating height to CB especially as it pertains to Julian Araujo. My post wasn't about disqualifying anybody based on height at all. Don't muddy the waters. Right or wrong, you don't see many CBs playing even in youth soccer that are his height.
I'm sure tall, uncoordinated players are stuck at CB. Or conversely, the most skilled are always put up top. But I don't think all CBs in the USA started that way. Some kids just like defense. The lack of technical skills is (was?) due to coaching and a lack of emphasis on technical skills. YNT CBs are snap shots in time. CBs at the professional level develop later and who will emerge there at 24-26 won't necessarily have to be who was good there at 17-19.
If you want to get into a Ramsey vs. Tomkinson debate, I’ll take Ramsey. Tomkinson combination of tools isn’t that good IMO. He defends okay, passes okay, moves okay for his size (but below average movement overall). Other than being 6’3, he does nothing that stands out, and I think once he gets to the pro game, he’ll be a low ceiling, high floor professional. He’ll have some type of pro career, but I doubt he’s talented enough to be any better than a low end MLS starter. I also don’t see the point in comparing them because they don’t even play for the same team anymore and are different caliber players with different styles of play, but if we must, I prefer Ramsey. I also don’t care who plays where. Norwich is a better club than San Antonio FC, but Tomkinson had an EU passport. Ramsey didn’t. I’m not suggesting Ramsey is a surefire great pro player, but I see some good upside. I like how he reads the game, he moves at an above average level, he plays physical for a smaller CB, and he passes at an above average level. The disciplinary record is not something that I think matters as much as you claim. Do you think it keeps him from playing well? I don’t. I haven’t once watched him play and thought his disciplinary record effected his performance. You can certainly disagree, but it’s the type of thing that isn’t even worth discussing IMO. All the Solar guys were told after last season by USSF to move to a higher level if they wanted to have a chance to make the U-17 WC team, and get future USYNT call ups. Ramsey has generated pro interest from some of the best development clubs in MLS (the ones that scout the country very well). Unfortunately, the best blocked the others from signing him, so he had to settle for San Antonio FC. He’s in the same environment that Gallegos, Bernal and Torres are in. There’s a question of if a USL club can develop these players and then sell them onto Europe. San Antonio has the talent. Now they have to show the results if they can move these guys onto Europe eventually.
Which CB’s are emerging? We likely don’t have a U-23 CB that makes the WCQ roster for September. This country has a problem with developing CB’s. It’s that simple. We have every style of player in the pool, and we can’t find any decent players to play CB. We have to rely on players Germany produced (Brooks) or maybe eventually players that England produced (Otasowie). Why are people surprised when Miazga can’t cut it at the top level struggling in Ligue One? When your movement probably isn’t even average and you are a bad passer, it’s not a good combo. The modern game requires the ability to move and move the ball up the field. Players such as Gonzalez, Goodson, Miazga, Onyewu can’t play the modern game. We need to do a better job with producing CB’s who can move and move the ball up the field. There’s too much pressure on players such as Richards or EPB because there’s such a dearth of CB’s in this country with the requisite skillset to compete against top level competition. We should have 10 players with their skillsets, not 2-4.There will be the occasional late-bloomer (Besler, Cameron, Long), as you mentioned, but I don’t know why this problem keeps getting ignored and I think one of the biggest problems is that there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the requirements of the CB position in the modern game. In this country, anyone whose big is thrown at CB and encouraged to be physical. Almost all of them aren’t tasked with developing significant technical skills. Being big and physical is considered enough and the players with some talent are put into more attacking positions. Why wasn’t Bryan Reynolds a CB or Brandon Vazquez a CB from a young age? Why were they attackers? What about Scally? What about Jonathan Gomez? I named four random names, so don’t make much of the choice of players, but why does every kid with some soccer ability play another position? It’s something that needs to be figured out and corrected. It also doesn’t help when you move players like Araujo to RB.
You might be right. I just think it will take more time to see. I believe that something in our development changed 10 years ago, and we are seeing the fruit of that now. But if CBs don't emerge, generally, until 24-27, then why would we expect any U23 player to be capable? The other positions that take longer are striker and GK. Also positions where we have not had young technical players emerge yet and are still using older, non-technical, players regularly for the USMNT. Miazga and CCV are just coming into this window. EPB is still too young and Richards is far from his prime as a CB. Covid has changed timelines and we don't know how that will play out. But Richards or EPB could be on a Bundesliga team before 2022. I do agree that youth coaches put speed up front and big in the back. Is it different in other countries? Obviously, that type of coaching at the youth level has been backward here for awhile. But the fact we have good fullback prospects coming through (but only recently) shows some specialization is happening earlier. The focus on development here was for college. Still is in many places. The college game is not the FIFA game. Looking for athletics over technical skill actually is what is important in college soccer. All that to say, I agree with you. But we won't know if it has changed for a few years more. A CB that entered the DA in 2012, is only 20 and might just have not emerged at that position. The CB posiiton has changed radically very recently too. I think a guy like Miazga is as good as Cameron, Besler, Agoos, and the like. But the requirements of CBs is different in 2020 than in 2012.
I’m not sure it’s true that CB’s don’t emerge until 24-27. I think the sport is getting younger and younger. Players are more accomplished at a younger age and getting more professional reps than they did 30 years ago. I also think that’s especially true in this country where the top talents are playing pro football by age 18, which is different from what they did previously. Years ago many of the top talents wasted ages 18-22 playing half a season. Now they don’t. What I think might be true is that they don’t hit their prime until 24-27. They will probably hit their prime later on, so Richards, Palmer-Brown, McKenzie, Robinson, Glad, Keita are players we should expect to hit their prime at a later age than Pulisic, McKennie, Adams, etc. Some of these CB’s might eventually be among our best players. This is pertinent to EPB, Richards, Robinson. The main problem still remains that the group of CB’s I named is pretty weak past the first few names. When your players are weak at youth level compared to other countries, that’s usually a precursor to what will happen in their pro careers. I don’t have my own knowledge that things are done so much worse here than other countries, but based off the fact that we are producing a lot of very good players compared to other countries and our position (outside of goalie) with probably the worst depth has become CB, I think it’s likely that we are doing something wrong with the CB’s we are producing.
Mostly agree with your post. I was not comparing them nor was I even suggesting (for a millisecond) that Tomkinson is better than Ramsey. I was just pointing out that my initial post wasn't about CB height (as you suggested) and definitely was about Ramsey's disciplinary record affecting his (and Solar's) game and definitely the result of deficiencies in his game. BTW, Tomkinson's disciplinary record was way worse. I have watched Ramsey play live many times (since before he joined DA) and yes, I do think his disciplinary record is a direct result of shortcomings in his game (his speed is definitely not above average, his right foot ability is VERY questionable, his aerial game is below average, etc.). Before all the COVID-19 situation, I was questioning whether he'd even make his debut with San Antonio FC this season (with Callum Montgomery on loan from FCD playing the same position) or not. With the USL season in its current state, I don't know how beneficial that move will be for him (resume builder?). As you implied (and it's been said here), FC Dallas blocked him from joining at least Sporting KC among others. In Tomkinson's case, he *may* have an excuse for his game deficiencies since he started off as a winger at FC Dallas. IMO, he's still learning the position at the same time he's growing into his body (to your point about CB development). Yes, USSF (Wicky) suggested Solar players to move up to a higher level (MLS) but to be fair, that year they ended up winning the DA National Championship and in the process knocking out Sounders, FC Dallas, LA Galaxy, among others from the playoffs. Next season, inexplicably, you will see more Solar players move to a very talent-lacking FC Dallas U19 team.