Best 11 Right Now

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by LuckofLichaj, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m not hopeful. Klinsman cut the second or third best player on the team and got hardly any pushback
     
  2. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    I personally know a family that did this about 10 years ago. They moved to The Netherlands so their kid could play for Ajax. They later ended up in Spain. I don’t know how much the rules have changed since then.
     
  3. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i dont get why people are so down on steffen/horvath. an injury and a HORRIBLE club situation are like a smokescreen everyones tossing out completely crap takes from.

    steffen started abroad, didnt settle, came to mls, was the best gk in the league. signed by one of the biggest clubs in the world, plays at a level comparable to howard/friedel/keller. before the knee problems was more of a standout at that level.

    horvath has done nothing but move up, has, what 4, 5 champions league campaigns? oh, he was shaky at times as a >25 year old? that NEVER happens. also has clean sheets against big teams in the cl cough-liverpool-cough). but a belgium club has a chance to sign their version of tim howard and all of a sudden horvath is somehow worse?

    is it as simple as not having played in a world cup yet? cause saying steffen isnt at that howard/friedel/keller level- in terms of club play- defies reality. horvath doesnt have the pedigree but hes a move away from saying the same. both have shown very well against top teams in the world (frace, liverpool respectively).

    guzan, i think, is rated about where he should be, i just think his standard started dropping as the us 1 shirt opened (along with steffen undeniably winning it).

    johnson? gonzalez? whatever other mls keeper of the week? who cares? compare them to rimando if you care that much about 3rd and 4th keepers.

    our gk pool, like the pool as a whole, is time and a missed world cup (largely due to the refusal to move on from howard in this case) away from being exactly as good/better than what everyone whines about them being some huge dropoff from.

    it would help if berhalter actually played to that pools strengths rather than doing a really poor pep impersonation but good grief yall. gk is our problem?!?
     
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  4. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One caveat, Howard was the#1 for Man U. Nobody else has done that yet.
     
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  5. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also the better teams have the ball more so their players are able to press more if they lose it which makes it a lot tougher on keepers for bad teams to find completely open teammates to pass to.
     
  6. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    I guess, but I wouldn't say that was Howard's overall level, generally speaking. He had a couple runs with the first team, but made enough errors to always lose his spot.

    His level was mid-table EPL, which of course is still excellent. But his run with ManU was more an aberration than his overall level (or he would have stayed there for more than a season or two).
     
  7. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    03/04 he started 32 PL games for Man U and made the PFA team of the year.

    I don't know how else you can be the number 1.
     
  8. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Great year, for sure, and not sure where I mentioned anything about being a #1? He then proceeded to make a few howlers, lose starting spot, regain it, then sold when they signed van der Sar. Then went on to play many years for Everton, which was his level. That's my only point. One great year doesn't make a career. His ability and career level of play was a mid-table PL team.

    I think Steffen is at about that Everton type level currently, which all our keepers have been. I also think our keepers have been a bit overrated in the past, since they were succeeding in the PL when very few of our field players were at a high level. This made it look like our keepers were amazing.

    Steffen starting for a low end BL side doesn't impress as many fans, when we have a variety of field players doing well on top sides.
     
  9. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    #1784 KALM, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    I think since my takeway probably got buried in a wall of text I'll reiterate my findings:

    1.) Better teams tend to have keepers with a higher pass completion rate than worse teams (this point is obvious)

    2.) The Bundesliga tends to have keepers with a higher pass completion rate than the EPL does

    3.) There has been a trend across both leagues over the past 5-10 years that has seen an increase in pass completion rates for keepers.

    4.) This trend is not only confined to the top teams. Meaning that although top-of-the-table keepers still have higher pass percentage rates, midtable teams in the EPL and relegation-threatened keepers in the Bundesliga have at least a 10 percentage point higher pass completion rate than they used to. (The worst completion rates in the EPL however still look pretty similar to what they did a decade ago.)

    Here are two illustrations of that.

    2010-11 rankings among the top 15 EPL starting keepers:

    1. Van der Sar (Man United) - 58.6%
    2. Reina (Liverpool) - 55.2%
    3. Gomes (Tottenham) - 54.3%
    4. Cech (Chelsea) - 52.8%
    5. Jaaskelainen (Bolton) - 52.1%
    6. Howard (Everton) - 49.7%
    7. Krul (Newcatle) - 49%
    8. Kingson/Gilks (Blackpool) - 46.6-46.9%
    9. Green (West Ham) - 46.6%
    10. Friedel (Aston Villa) - 45.7%
    11. Schwarzer (Fulham) - 45.5%
    12. Begvic (Stoke) 44.9%

    2019-20 rankings among the top 15 starting keepers:

    1. Ederson (Man City) - 86.6%
    2. Alisson (Liverpool) - 84.2%
    3. Ryan (Brighton) - 81.3%
    4. Kepa (Chelsea) - 78.3%
    5. Schmeichel (Leicester) - 75.2%
    6. Leno (Arsenal) - 71.6%
    7. de Gea (Man United) - 71.3%
    8. Krul (Norwich) 61.5%
    9. Patricio (Wolves) - 60.7%
    10. Pickford (Everton) - 57.4%
    11. Gazzaniga (Tottenham) - 57.4%
    12. Ramsdale (Bournemouth) - 53.9%

    In other words, yes the top teams' keepers' pass completion rates are now much higher than they used to be, but the majority of the Premier League is now putting up pass completion rates at least comparable to if not exceeding the single highest pass completion rate at the start of the decade.

    And here's a comparable chart for the Bundesliga:

    Bundesliga 2010-11

    1. Jorg Butt (Bayern) - 71.1%
    2. Rost (Hamburg) - 66.1%
    3. Neuer (Schalke) - 65.5%
    4. Schafner (Nurnberg) - 64.1%
    5. Wiese (Werder Bremen) - 63.8%
    6. Starke (Hoffenheim) - 60.3%
    7. Bailly (Borussia Monchengladbach) - 60%
    8. Baumann (Freiburg) - 59.7%
    9. Weidenfeller (Dortmund) - 59.3%
    10. Benaglio (Wolfsburg) - 59.2%
    11. Ulreich (Stuttgart) - 55.1%
    12. Adler (Bayer Leverkusen) - 54.1%
    13. Wetklo (Mainz) - 53.8%
    14. Nikolov (Eintracht Frankfurt) - 53.2%
    15. Sippel (Kaiserslautern) - 51.8%
    16. Fromlowitz (Hannover) - 48.6%
    17. Kessler (St. Pauli) - 46.3%
    18. Rensing (Koln) - 45.3%

    Bundesliga this season

    1. Neuer (Bayern) - 87.7%
    2. Sommer (Borussia Monchengladbach) - 80.5%
    3. Zingerle (Paderborn) - 79.3%
    4. Baumann (Hoffenheim) - 76.9%
    5. Gulacs (RB Leipzig) - 76.6%
    6. Burki (Dortmund) - 74.7%
    7. Hradecky (Bayer Leverkusen) - 73.2%
    8. Trapp (Eintracht Frankfurt) - 70.9%
    9. Horn (Koln) - 70.1%
    10. Nubel (Schalke) - 70%
    11. Pavlenka (Werder Bremen) - 69.5%
    12. Casteels (Wolfsburg) - 68.4%
    13. Schwolow (Freiburg) - 65.8%
    14. Steffen (Dusseldorf) - 65%
    15. Gikiewicz (Union Berlin) - 62.9%
    16. Jarstein (Hertha Berlin) - 61.9%
    17. Zentner (Mainz) - 57.2%
    18. Koubek (Augsburg) - 54.9%

    Again, note that only Bayern's keepers' pass completion rate at the beginning of the decade was noticeably better than relegation-threatened Steffen's right now, even though Steffen's completion rate is now near the bottom of that list.

    Also I haven't watched much Paderborn or Brighton this year, but I'd be very curious to know why such low ranked teams -- especially Paderborn who is sitting at the very bottom of the table --- have pass completion rates that high.
     
  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It's not really surprising. I think keepers have generally gotten better at passing, but the big difference would be in the passes they make. GKs have higher passing %s now because they make a ton more short and medium passes and many, many less deep balls that are up for grabs.

    Just watch a game from back then compared to now. It's amazing how little out of the back play there is from almost every team.

    It also accounts for most of the variation NOW between GKs in a league. The worse teams boot it long, so there's a lower completion %. If Steffen played on Bayern, he'd have a completion % in the 80s because of the passes he'd be asked to make, not because his skill was better.
     
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  11. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    #1786 KALM, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    Right, to be clear, I made it a point to note initially that this doesn't necessarily mean that keepers are a lot more accurate today, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the top keepers are a lot more accurate than the bottom ones -- but it does suggest that most keepers are altering the way they play, including in the ways that you mention.

    It also suggests that a slightly different skillset may be ideal for the change in play than what was optimal a decade ago.
     
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  12. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are a BSer. You said he had a few runs in the first team. He was the clear #1 for a full season. Started 32 PL games. That's not in and out.
     
  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Part of the problem with Steffen and Horvath is that they're not playing competitive games. You want your NT keeper to be sharp. Steffen went out with 2019, and Horvath has not played since September.
     
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  14. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is it better to have the rusty UEFA guy or the #1 in MLS?
     
  15. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    LOL, you just want to create arguments, don't you? What is a run in the first team? A full season can be a run. From wikipedia, he had a good run of games, then benched after a Champions League howler, then regained the starting job til the end of the season.

    Then he played 12 PL games the next year, then 1 the year after, before being loaned and then sold.

    For all your bickering, my point remains the same - Howard's career level was a mid-table PL team, which is comparable to Keller/Freidel/Steffen.
     
  16. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    It's a player-by-player issue. Some can stay sharp despite the lack of games.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Howard was signed to replace Barthez. He was given the #1 spot. He played relatively well in the beginning, even with the ridiculous taunts about his tourette's. He never recovered after the mistake against Porto. I could probably go back and refresh my memory some of his first season, but I remember his second much better. He was ultimately beaten out by a guy who they never considered to be the starter. I thought Howard was better but his play ended up not justifying it.

    They clearly didnt think either was good enough for the club. They purchased Van de Saar and finally had a dependable keeper they were happy with since Schmeichel had retired. Sure Howard started for most of one season, but it included a big mistake on a very big stage and the club to ultimately decide he wasnt good enough.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Carroll
     
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  18. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Yeah, which is exactly my point. Just that his level wasn't Manu, it was mid table epl. Thx for additional info.
     
  19. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The point I made is that none of the other keepers can touch Howard’s resume yet.

    Holding down the spot at a Man U and winning trophies in England is a different level than even Everton.
     
  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is silly. If a career 250 hitter gets hot and hits 320 for a season and makes the all star game, you can not say he’s on the same level as the guys who hit 250 for a career and never touch the heights.
     
  21. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Is brady Anderson the same as Barry bonds? Just stop, nobody agrees w you.
     
  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    cmon. The comp isn’t Barry bonds but a lifetime 250 hitter who never hit above 270.
     
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  23. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why do you appeal to the authority of what other unspecified people may agree with? As I said you are a BSer, anybody who uses a strawman and an appeal to authority in one argument is a sad case.

    It would be easier to just admit that you forgot that he started for a whole season at Man U.
     
  24. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Clearly.
     
  25. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    #1800 yurch10, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    What? Brady Anderson whacked 52 bombs one year. Is that his level,ssince he did it one year? No, he was a skinny singles hitter.

    My point is that Howard's career level of play was midtable epl. How is this even an argument besides 50/50 wanting to create an argument out of nothing?

    Edit - meant to quote DHC there since I have no idea what his point is.
     

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