The best players of the season 2003-4

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Mar 21, 2020.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    All thoughts welcomed on the best players of the season for 2003-4. I've highlighted some achievements/ratings for certain players just for my own records.

    Goalkeeper



    Carlo Cudicini (Chelsea and Italy) 26 games, 0 goals


    Gigi Buffon (Juventus and Italy) 32 games, 0 goals


    UEFA Team of the Year


    Dida (Milan and Brazil) 32 games, 0 goals 6.28


    Serie A Goalkeeper of the Year


    Timo Hildebrand (Stuttgart and Germany) 34 games, 0 goals


    ESM Team of the Year, 5th Best Rated Player in the Bundesliga (2.74), Winter I/k1 Summer I/K1


    Vitor Baia (Porto and Portugal) 31 games, 0 goals


    UEFA Club Goalkeeper of the Year


    Iker Casillas (Real Madrid and Spain) 37 games, 0 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Sebastian Frey (Parma and France) 33 games, 0 goals 6.39


    Highest rated GK by DBS Calcio


    Ivan Pelizzoli (Roma and Italy) 31 games, 0 goals 6.39


    2nd highest rated GK by DBS Calcio


    Santiago Canizares (Valencia and Spain) 37 games, 0 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Gregory Coupet (Lyon and France) 35 games, 0 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Luca Marchegiani (Chievo and Italy) 29 games, 0 goals 6.38


    Petr Cech (Rennes and Czech Republic) 33 games, 0 goals


    Antti Niemi (Southampton and Finland) 28 games, 0 goals


    Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Tim Howard (Manchester United and USA) 32 games, 0 goals


    PFA Team of the Year


    Rein van Duijnhoven (Bochum and Netherlands) 34 games, 0 goals


    2nd Best Rated Player in the Bundesliga (2.74), Winter W/C6, Summer I/K2


    Angelo Peruzzi (Lazio and Italy) 27 games, 0 goals 6.35


    Jens Lehmann (Arsenal and Germany) 38 games, 0 goals


    Dean Kiely (Charlton and Republic of Ireland) 37 games, 0 goals


    Highest rated PL goalkeeper by DBS Calcio


    Edwin van der Sar (Fulham and Netherlands) 37 games, 0 goals


    2nd highest rated PL goalkeeper by DBS Calcio


    Full-back


    Paulo Ferreira (Porto and Portugal) 32 games, 0 goals


    ESM Team of the Year


    Michel Salgado (Real Madrid and Spain) 35 games, 1 goal


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Ashley Cole (Arsenal and England) 30 games, 0 goals


    PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season, UEFA Team of the Year


    Lauren (Arsenal and Cameroon) 31 games, 0 goals


    PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season Substitute


    Gary Neville (Manchester United and England) 30 games, 2 goals


    Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Amadeo Carboni (Valencia and Italy) 33 games, 0 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Philipp Lahm (Stuttgart and Germany) 31 games, 1 goal


    Winter I/K2, Summer I/K1


    Cafu (Milan and Brazil) 28 games, 1 goal 6.28


    UEFA Team of the Year, Highest rated RB by DBS Calcio


    Roberto Carlos (Real Madrid and Brazil) 32 games, 5 goals


    ESM Team of the Year


    Bernard Mendy (PSG and France) 33 games, 0 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Patrice Evra (Monaco and France) 33 games, 0 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Maxwell (Ajax and Brazil) 31 games, 2 goals


    Dutch Player of the Year


    Nuno Valente (Porto and Portugal) 27 games, 0 goals


    Miguel (Benfica and Portugal) 30 games, 2 goals


    Wayne Bridge (Chelsea and England) 33 games, 1 goal


    Marek Jankulovski (Udinese and Czech Republic) 32 games, 6 goals 6.23


    Christian Panucci (Roma and Italy) 24 games, 2 goals 6.17


    2nd highest rated RB DBS Calcio


    Andreas Hinkel (Stuttgart and Germany) 28 games, 0 goals


    Curro Torres (Valencia and Spain) 30 games, 1 goal


    Massimo Oddo (Lazio and Italy) 31 games, 1 goal 6.07


    Joan Capdevila (Deportivo la Coruna and Spain) 27 games, 4 goals


    Centre-back


    Alessandro Nesta (Milan and Italy) 26 games, 0 goals 6.60


    UEFA Team of the Year, Highest rated defender by DBS Calcio


    Paolo Maldini (Milan and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals 6.35


    Serie A Defender of the Year


    Sol Campbell (Arsenal and England) 33 games, 1 goal


    PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Ricardo Carvalho (Porto and Portugal) 29 games, 2 goals


    UEFA Club Defender of the Year, Defender with Most Votes from ESM, UEFA Team of the Year


    Roberto Ayala (Valencia and Argentina) 30 games, 1 goal


    ESM Team of the Year, Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Jorge Andrade (Deportivo la Coruna and Portugal) 37 games, 0 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Jaap Stam (Lazio and Netherlands) 29 games, 2 goals 6.43


    Top rated SCD on DBS Calcio


    Walter Samuel (Roma and Argentina) 30 games, 1 goal 6.47


    ESM Team of the Year


    Carles Puyol (Barcelona and Spain) 27 games, 0 goals


    Highest rated CB in Spain


    Christian Chivu (Roma and Romania) 22 games, 2 goals 6.16


    Marcelo Bordon (Stuttgart and Brazil) 24 games, 4 goals


    6th Best Rated Player in the Bundesliga by Kicker (2.86), Winter IK1, Summer IK3


    John Terry (Chelsea and England) 33 games, 2 goals


    PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Lucio (Bayer Leverkusen and Brazil) 27 games, 3 goals


    Best Rated Player in the Bundesliga by Kicker (2.70), Winter I/K3, Summer IK1


    Juan (Bayer Leverkusen and Brazil) 29 games, 2 goals


    4th best rated player in Bundesliga by kicker (2.78)


    Valerian Ismael (Werder Bremen and France) 32 games, 4 goals


    7th best rated player in the Bundesliga


    Mladen Krstajic (Werder Bremen and Serbia) 30 games, 3 goals


    Sebastien Squillachi (Monaco and France) 27 games, 5 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Mario Yepes (Nantes and Colombia) 29 games, 0 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Kolo Toure (Arsenal and Ivory Coast) 34 games, 1 goal


    Sky Sports Team of the Season Substitute


    William Gallas (Chelsea and France) 29 games, 0 goals


    Olof `Mellberg (Aston Villa and Sweden) 28 games, 1 goal


    Carlos Marchena (Valencia and Spain) 31 games, 2 goals


    Gareth Southgate (Middlesbrough and England) 27 games, 1 goal


    Gabriel Heinze (PSG and Argentina) 33 games, 2 goals


    Nestor Sensini (Udinese and Argentina) 25 games, 2 goals 6.32


    Per Kroldrup (Udinese and Denmark) 30 games, 2 goals 6.30


    Matteo Ferrari (Parma and Italy) 33 games, 1 goal 6.21


    Alessandro Costacurta (Milan and Italy) 22 games, 0 goals 6.26


    Luigi Di Biagio (Brescia and Italy) 31 games, 7 goals 6.37


    John Heitinga (Ajax and Netherlands) 26 games, 3 goals


    Dutch Talent of the Year


    Vincent Kompany (Anderlecht and Belgium) 29 games, 2 goals


    Defensive Midfielder


    Costinha (Porto and Portugal) 27 games, 2 goals


    Gennaro Gattuso (Milan and Italy) 33 games, 1 goal 6.41


    David Albelda (Valencia and Spain) 33 games, 1 goal


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Fabian Ernst (Werder Bremen and Germany) 33 games, 2 goals


    3rd Highest rated player in Bundesliga, Winter I/k2 Summer W/C3, Kicker team of the season


    Claude Makelele (Chelsea and France) 30 games, 0 goals


    Gilberto Silva (Arsenal and Brazil) 32 games, 4 goals


    Zvonimir Soldo (Stuttgart and Croatia) 33 games, 4 goals


    Winter I/k1 Summer I/k2


    Mauro Silva (Deportivo la Coruna and Brazil) 27 games, 0 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Benoit Pedretti (Sochaux and France) 33 games, 2 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Lucas Bernardi (Monaco and Argentina) 33 games, 2 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Frank Baumann (Werder Bremen and Germany) 32 games, 2 goals


    Summer IK1


    Central Midfielder


    Andrea Pirlo (Milan and Italy) 32 games, 6 goals 6.48


    Patrick Vieira (Arsenal and France) 28 games, 3 goals


    Shortlisted for PFA Player of the Year, PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Edgar Davids (Juventus/Barcelona and Netherlands) 5 games, 0 goals for Juventus, 18 games, 1 goal for Barcelona


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Maniche (Porto and Portugal) 31 games, 6 goals


    UEFA Team of the Year


    Emerson (Roma and Brazil) 33 games, 3 goals 6.39


    Steven Gerrard (Liverpool and England) 34 games, 4 goals


    Third Place PFA Player of the Year, PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Roy Keane (Manchester United and Republic of Ireland) 28 games, 3 goals


    Xavi (Barcelona and Spain) 36 games, 4 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Ruben Baraja (Valencia and Spain) 35 games, 8 goals


    Sergio Volpi (Sampdoria and Italy) 31 games, 1 goal 6.40


    Simone Perrotta (Chievo and Italy) 31 games, 1 goal 6.39


    Michael Ballack (Bayern Munich and Germany) 28 games, 7 goals


    Winter W/C3, Summer I/k1, Kicker team of the year


    Scott Parker (Charlton/Chelsea and England) 20 games, 2 goals for Charlton, 11 games, 1 goal for Chelsea


    PFA Young Player of the Year


    Sergio (Deportivo la Coruna and Spain) 37 games, 3 goals


    Simone Barone (Parma and Italy) 33 games, 3 goals 6.32


    David Pizarro (Udinese and Chile) 19 games, 3 goals 6.37


    Stefano Mauri (Brescia and Italy) 30 games, 3 goals 6.25


    Philipp Cocu (Barcelona and Netherlands) 36 games, 5 goals


    Michael Essien (Lyon and Ghana) 34 games, 3 goals


    Gaizka Mendieta (Middlesbrough and Span) 31 games, 2 goals HM


    Attacking Midfielder


    Deco (Porto and Portugal) 28 games, 3 goals


    UEFA Club Player of the Year,


    Frank Lampard (Chelsea and England) 37 games, 10 goals


    Runner-up PFA Player of the Year, PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Kaka (Milan and Brazil) 30 games, 10 goals 6.55


    Serie A Footballer of the Year


    Johan Micoud (Werder Bremen and France) 32 games, 10 goals


    Kicker team of the season


    Juninho (Lyon and Brazil) 32 games, 10 goals


    UNFP Team of the Year


    Pablo Aimar (Valencia and Argentina) 25 games, 4 goals


    Fran Yeste (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 30 games, 11 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Jay-Jay Okocha (Bolton and Nigeria) 35 games, 0 goals


    Shortlisted for PFA Player of the Year


    Zinedine Zidane (Real Madrid and France) 33 games, 7 goals


    ESM Team of the Year


    Matuzalem (Brescia and Brazil) 30 games, 3 goals 6.38


    Pavel Nedved (Juventus and Czech Republic) 30 games, 6 goals 6.15


    Stefano Fiore (Lazio and Italy) 32 games, 8 goals 6.23


    Juan Carlos Valeron (Deportivo la Coruna and Spain) 34 games, 3 goals


    Muzzy Izzet (Leicester City and Turkey) 30 games, 2 goals


    Steed Malbranque (Fulham and France) 38 games, 6 goals


    Rafael van der Vaart (Ajax and Netherlands) 26 games, 7 goals


    Wesley Sneijder (Ajax and Netherlands) 30 games, 9 goals


    Johan Cruyff Trophy


    Alex Hleb (Stuttgart and Belarus) 31 games, 5 goals


    Kicker team of the season


    Dmitri Loskov (Lokomotiv Moscow and Russia) 30 games, 14 goals in 2003, 30 games, 4 goals in 2004


    Winger


    Vicente (Valencia and Spain) 33 games, 12 goals


    Don Balon Spanish Player of the Year, Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Robert Pires (Arsenal and France) 33 games, 13 goals


    PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Year


    Ludovic Giuly (Monaco and France) 30 games, 13 goals


    ESM Team of the Year, UNFP Team of the Year


    Jerome Rothen (Monaco and France) 34 games, 0 goals


    Luis Figo (Real Madrid and Portugal) 36 games, 9 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Aimo Diana (Sampdoria and and Italy) 33 games, 5 goals 6.48


    Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United and Portugal) 29 games, 4 goals


    Sky Sports Team of the Season, UEFA Team of the Year


    Amantino Mancini (Roma and Brazil) 33 games, 8 goals 6.27


    Clarence Seedorf (Milan and Netherlands) 29 games, 3 goals 6.20


    David Beckham (Real Madrid and England) 32 games, 3 goals


    Shaun Wright-Phillips (Manchester City and England) 34 games, 7 goals


    Martin Jorgenson (Udinese and Denmark) 34 games, 3 goals 6.30


    Damien Duff (Chelsea and Republic of Ireland) 22 games, 5 goals


    Simao (Benfica and Portugal) 31 games, 12 goals


    Forward


    Thierry Henry (Arsenal and France) 37 games, 30 goals


    European Golden Boot, PFA Player of the Year, FWA Player of the Year, ESM Team of the Year (Most Votes Overall and Most Individual Appearances), PFA Team of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Francesco Totti (Roma and Italy) 31 games, 20 goals 6.63


    Serie A Italian Player of the Year, ESM Team of the Year


    Ronaldinho (Barcelona and Brazil) 32 games, 15 goals


    ESM Team of the Year, Don Balon Foreign Player of the Year, Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Javier Chevanton (Lecce and Uruguay) 30 games, 18 goals 6.53


    Roberto Baggio (Brescia and Italy) 26 games, 12 goals 6.62


    Antonio Cassano (Roma and Italy) 33 games, 14 goals 6.29


    Wayne Rooney (Everton and England) 33 games, 9 goals


    Francesco Flachi (Sampdoria and Italy) 31 games, 11 goals 6.29


    Dennis Bergkamp (Arsenal and Netherlands) 28 games, 4 goals


    Striker


    Andriy Shevchenko (Milan and Ukraine) 32 games, 24 goals 6.61


    Capocannoniere, Ballon d’Or, ESM Team of the Year


    Ronaldo (Real Madrid and Brazil) 32 games, 24 goals


    Pichichi, Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Ailton (Werder Bremen and Brazil) 33 games, 28 goals


    German Footballer of the Year, Bundesliga Topscorer


    Ruud van Nistelrooy (Manchester United and Netherlands) 32 games, 20 goals


    PFA Team of the Year


    Alberto Gilardino (Parma and Italy) 34 games, 23 goals 6.48


    Serie A Young Player of the Year


    Roy Makaay (Bayern Munich and Netherlands) 32 games, 23 goals


    Alan Shearer (Newcastle and England) 37 games, 22 goals


    Shortlisted for PFA Player of the Year, Sky Sports Team of the Season


    Louis Saha (Fulham/Manchester United and France) 21 games, 13 goals for Fulham,12 games, 7 goals for Manchester United


    Julio Baptista (Sevilla and Brazil) 30 games, 20 goals


    Don Balon Revelation of the Year, Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year


    Djibril Cisse (Auxerre and France) 38 games, 26 goals


    Mateja Kezman (PSV Eindhoven and Serbia) 29 games, 31 goals


    Eredivisie top scorer


    Alex Frei (Rennes and Switzerland) 28 games, 19 goals


    Didier Drogba (Marseille and Ivory Coast) 35 games, 19 goals


    French Player of the Year, UNFP Team of the Year, Most goals (11) in Europe (CL and UEFA Cup combined)


    Fernando Morientes (Monaco and Spain) 28 games, 10 goals


    Champions League Topscorer, UEFA Club Forward of the Year, UNFP Team of the Year


    Fernando Torres (Atletico Madrid and Spain) 35 games, 20 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Mista (Valencia and Spain) 33 games, 19 goals


    Sid Lowe’s Team of the Year Substitute


    Adriano (Parma/Inter and Brazil) 9 games, 8 goals for Parma at 7.00, 16 games, 9 goals for Inter at 6.19


    Henrik Larsson (Celtic and Sweden) 37 games, 30 goals


    Dimitar Berbatov (Bayer Leverkusen and Bulgaria) 33 games, 16 goals


    Mikael Forsell (Birmingham City and Finland) 32 games, 17 goals


    Martin Max (Hansa Rostock and Germany) 33 games, 20 goals


    Dirk Kuyt (Feyenoord and Netherlands) 34 games, 20 goals


    Pierre van Hooijdonck (Fenerbahce and Netherlands) 34 games, 24 goals


    Turkish player of the year


    Benni McCarthy (Porto and South Africa) 29 games, 20 goals


    David Trezeguet (Juventus and France) 25 games, 16 goals


    Raul Tamudo (Espanyol and Spain) 32 games, 19 goals


    Samuel Eto’o (Mallorca and Cameroon) 32 games, 17 goals


    David Villa (Real Zaragoza and Spain) 38 games, 17 goals


    Michael Owen (Liverpool and England) 29 games, 16 goals


    Chris Sutton (Celtic and England) 25 games, 19 goals


    Nicolas Anelka (Manchester City and France) 32 games, 16 goals


    Juan Pablo Angel (Aston Villa and Colombia) 31 games, 16 goals


    Bernardo Corradi (Lazio and Italy) 32 games, 10 goals 6.27


    Fabio Bazzani (Sampdoria and Italy) 32 games, 13 goals 6.27
     
    PuckVanHeel and AD78 repped this.
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #2 PuckVanHeel, Mar 21, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
    He had also the joint-most clean sheets (next to the Arsenal's Invincibles).

    "Key to this defensive success was the form of Opta's Fulham player of the year, Edwin van der Sar. The Dutch stopper made more saves than any other Premiership goalkeeper (155), saving 78% of the goal bound shots fired at him, including two penalty saves.

    Despite the vast array of goalkeeping talent on show in the Premiership, only Arsenal's Jens Lehmann could claim as many shut-outs as van der Sar's total of 15. The most impressive of these came away at Highbury, when the Holland international made 12 saves to earn his side a goalless draw. This was the highest number of saves made in a single Premiership match this season."
    http://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2004/may/20/edwin-scoops-award



    Really not sure whether Clarence has to be among the wingers. Maybe for the smaller games that might be true, but is it also true for some of the decisive games like Inter or Juventus? Maybe hard to classify and it could vary what he was doing or not doing (looking invisible if you expect certain things from him). He got nominated for the Ballon d'Or by the end of the year. In some of the bigger games - like Inter or Juve - he had a terrific impact imho tilting the balance to Milan's favor by the end of the season (his GI rating was also among the top for Serie A players for the 1995 to 2005 period).

    Bergkamp is the #2 EPL forward (SP) in DBScalcio, for The Independent the #4 striker. In 2004-05 (the last one at top level/starter) he was more productive however with goals and assists.

    It is now a bit forgotten but in these regions there was a big buzz around Kompany at the time (back then he also played as defensive midfielder at times).

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/c...tarts-aids-benefit-match.154181/#post-3692391
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/fc-barcelona-vs-world-all-star-xi.153657/#post-3684359


    edit: this is possibly Pirlo's best season for Milan overall, in the league + CL combined. One of the two best seasons for Milan at the least. Strangely, all the plaudits for him arrived slightly later in his career.

    edit 2: it's safe to say Robben's persistent injury troubles started in this season (the previous one, 2002-03 was excellent/fantastic with a high number of assists as well). It hampered his form and rhytm a little bit, but then at euro 2004 he played quite well (if he played). I can understand why he is excluded, I agree he was better (or luckier) the previous one.
     
    comme repped this.
  3. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Slightly weirdly given this season had two relatively unfancied teams in the CL final (plus Chelsea and Depor in the semis who had never won it), I look back on this as a season where a lot of players had excellent campaigns.

    In terms of top spot I'm a little torn. I remember at the time I saw it as a 5-way contest between Henry, Deco, Ronaldinho, Totti and Shevchenko.

    My inclination would be towards Henry as number 1 overall.
     
    carlito86 and PuckVanHeel repped this.
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003


    I hadn't quite appreciated this before going through the ratings. Interesting season for goalkeepers, particularly in the PL. I remember thinking at the time that Cudicini was the best in the league but there are lots who ranked very highly, including relatively unheralded people like Kiely.

    He wasn't a winger no, but he played to the left (mores than Gattuso on the right I think). Always an extremely difficult player to classify for these things.

    Yes, he had a big reputation in both positions and was also excellent the following season. Then he lost some of the hype and then regained it at City.

    I think you're right on both points here. I did consider Robben but probably didn't play enough due to injury. Obviously he's a lock the following season.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #5 PuckVanHeel, Mar 21, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
    Maybe @PDG1978 can chip in with some ideas.

    Thierry Henry would be the safe choice. He's the only one to be consistently good the entire season, and also showed up for the national team (before the euros) and at continental level (brief knockout stage highlight, two goals). He had a blistering start of the 2004-05 season and it remains arguable he didn't win the BdO.

    Unfortunately I don't have the entire OPTA Index (anyone?) but this are Thierry Henry's scores (with a dip around the middle and end of the season - e.g. the last games to maintain the unbeaten run):

    [​IMG]
    As a point of reference: the average of rest of Arsenal, including the substitutes, is around 1100 points per game.

    Ronaldinho I think (my perception) was less fantastic in the first half of the season, far below his level for the national team (his best year was 2005) and of course less good as Henry at continental level. The second half of the season belong among the best of his career (together with 2005-06, more so than 2004-05).

    Deco was possibly the single best player of the Champions League (his stats profile). From the first matchday against Real Madrid to the final. Not entirely sure about his consistency in the league and consistency for Portugal (although he had some great games for Portugal, including his debut vs Brazil at the back end of 2002-03). He tried more dribbles than anyone else that season in the Champions League (115 attempts; don't know the success rate), and this is not necessarily one of his main attributes. This is the competition that drew the most attention in the country (hence, they could also spot a few excellent moments/games by DB10).

    Shevchenko was of course also pretty good at all levels (maybe less so for the national team, but has still his goal vs Spain in the qualifiers), and consistent in the league throughout, and scored different types of goals (header).

    I'm personally not entirely convinced about Totti - depends on the day and mood how I see him. Not denying his technical class but his 20 goals includes 7 penalties; over half of his 7 assists were from set pieces. At international level for club and country he did close to nothing (then subsequently vastly underperformed at the euros). On the plus side however, in a couple/handful of the encounters against the bigger teams of his league he was good or great; the years from 2003 to 2007 were demonstrably his peak, and was also a player who made his (less-than-enormously-great) team better if he was on form.

    All in all, and I realize many would place Ronaldinho in the mix, I'm most fond of Henry, Deco or as an outside bet Shevchenko (29 goals, with only 1 penalty, 4 assists in the league + CL combined; he was more of a provider in other seasons).

    I'll now stay quiet but if other thoughts pop up I'll collect them and return in a few days/week time.

    edit:

    Not too long ago (two/three years I think?) I watched this match with many notable moments (strange error and then commanding/leading performance by Vieira) and some great passes and noticed him yes.
     
    comme repped this.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One correcting nuance for above post (as a slight correction of above claim): in contrast to what I say (think) here above, many reports and pundits around 2004 claim Totti doesn't perform for the bigger occasions. For example the mid-season review on soccer-europe: "After spending the last season whining and moaning Roma have done their talking on the pitch. The football has been spectacular and even when Totti goes awol in big matches Cassano and Mancini win Roma the match."

    This is certainly true for the key match in the 15th round between Roma and Milan with Shevchenko in good form (video of his chipped goal), when Roma was top of the table and Milan three points behind (how did Kaka - who was starter for half of the season - finish ahead of Shevchenko for player of the year?). But I don't think it quite holds for the home matches against Lazio (2-0), Inter (4-1) and Juventus (4-0) where he was decent to very good. If he doesn't have his day he was dead weight on the field and that's one of the things that made him a somewhat polarizing player.

    As said above I'll get to further thoughts/observations on other players later in the week.
     
    comme repped this.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Out of interest, when the FIFA game 'messed up' in 2003 with giving Brighi a 97 rating (unorthodox at the least), they started to give more consideration and research to it.

    This was the ladder for the FIFA 05 game (October 2004). Keep in mind that of course there are oddities (Davids at 88 is arguable? Denilson 89? Figo 88, R. Carlos 87) and some players will be better in the previous or next season (e.g. the efficient/clinical Makaay, who was significantly more productive in 2004-05 and was golden boot winner in 2002-03; Del Piero on 92 and others like VdV on 87, Robben 85 limited by his league; DB10 also significantly more productive in 2004-05 although w/ Pires still unlocking play from central positions against congested play). Of course some others are on a downward course because of age.

    97 - Henry
    97 - Buffon

    96 - Zidane

    95 - Van Nistelrooij

    94 - Casillas
    94 - Kahn
    94 - Makaay
    94 - Nesta
    94 - Totti
    94 - Vieira

    93 - Campbell
    93 - Gerrard
    93 - Lucio
    93 - Marcos
    93 - Ronaldinho
    93 - Shevchenko
    93 - Stam
    93 - Van der Sar

    92 - Aimar
    92 - Adriano
    92 - Del Piero
    92 - Rio Ferdinand
    92 - Giggs
    92 - Kaka
    92 - Maldini
    92 - Pires
    92 - Ronaldo
    92 - Scholes
    92 - Thuram
    92 - Toldo
    92 - Trezeguet

    91 - Cudicini
    91 - Given
    91 - Roy Keane
    91 - Makelele
    91 - Nedved
    91 - Owen
    91 - Rosicky
    91 - Valeron
    91 - Vicente
    91 - Vieri
    91 - Zambrotta

    90 - Ayala
    90 - Ballack
    90 - Barthez
    90 - Beckham
    90 - Bergkamp
    90 - Cafu
    90 - Deisler
    90 - Djibril Cissé
    90 - Dida
    90 - Ferrara
    90 - Inzaghi
    90 - Karagounis
    90 - Lampard
    90 - Morientes
    90 - Nikopolidis
    90 - Raul
    90 - Seedorf
    90 - J. Zanetti

    89 - Canizares
    89 - Crespo
    89 - Deco
    89 - Denilson
    89 - Gattuso
    89 - Gilberto Silva
    89 - Howard
    89 - Joaquin
    89 - Landreau
    89 - Lauren
    89 - Ljungberg
    89 - Metzelder
    89 - S. Petrov
    89 - Pirlo
    89 - Ze Roberto
    89 - Rui Costa
    89 - Terry
    89 - Van Buyten
    89 - Walter Samuel


    Anyway I came across this too since Saturday and found it interesting at least. There is overlap.
     
    comme repped this.
  8. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think there's really only a case for Deco or Henry. I don't see the argument for Shevchenko over Henry.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #9 PuckVanHeel, Mar 26, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
    Okay, I'll do this in phases (also to give a chance for reply/feedback etc.). Some of the things and/or discussion topics I noticed. The topics are by position, by team, by individual cases etc.

    The Serie A centre backs

    One of the first things I noticed is Milan had not the best defense of their league. AS Roma played (in subjective eyes, for Serie A standards) a more entertaining brand of football for two-third of a season. Then they faltered towards the end but had still the most goals scored (68 goals) and the least goals against of Serie A (19 goals).

    In the Champions League and Coppa Italia Milan their defense was also a bit erratic, twice crashing out with 4-0 (progressing to the 2nd round of UCL with only 4 goals scored, btw). In your own profile of Maldini you write they added Stam "with the hope of suring up an area of slight concern".

    In rare occasions defenders can play an (almost) perfect season but this was certainly not one of them in Maldini his career (a season before he was vulnerable/error-prone against Obafemi Martins in the 2003 CL semi final; or november 2004 against Barcelona here, and here).

    Nesta was kind of the standard bearer at the time and only a hair removed from his ultimate best (but: also he had sometimes his lesser moment, in particular at the Champions League where I believe he never reached the protagonism/heroism of a Sergio Ramos in gaining the success; as an example of occasional vulnerability, even for him, see for example this scene of a season later at 1:38:35 in the KO stages).

    I rated Nesta as the best central defender since 1994, he has about three near perfect seasons in his career (maybe two, maybe four). His 2010-11 season - past his prime and with a low WhoScored rating of 7.01 as a starter - belongs among the more underrated/forgotten ones.

    Just like guys as nicephoras previously, I don't think Maldini as center back was equally good as a full-back. As full-back he was the single best of his generation. As center-back he was often slightly short of elite level in my perception (major exception is 1993-94, but even then he was flirting with red cards at times, like vs Nigeria where he should have been sent off).

    All in all, center backs are hard to rate (relative to strikers), but the defense of Panucci, Chivu and Samuel might be underrated in comparison to what Maldini and Nesta came up with for this season.

    Maldini and Nesta had a good amount of protection with a defensive minded player on the opposite side of Cafu (Costacurta as left-back), and Gattuso (and if necessary Seedorf) giving body and security in front of them; only Cafu might be an 'excuse'.

    24 goals against is still pretty good (only bettered by Milan in 1995-96 before this, and 2010-11 after this), but it might well be the unit anchored by Chivu and Samuel were not miles removed from this, and the awards give a false impression. The so called "world's best defense" didn't have the record of the world's best defense in the league, coppa italia, and Champions League. Apart from Chivu, also others like Jaap Stam was pretty impressive, and I find it surprising many Juventus players were not well rated this campaign (will come back to this).

    The listed names look fairly accurate and correct overall. The main thing is just, like the elevation of Zidane above his peers, how much all the individual Milan defensive players were miles ahead of their contemporaries, in this campaign (and other campaigns of not winning the league and not nearly the best defensive record).
     
    comme and Tom Stevens repped this.
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #11 PuckVanHeel, Mar 27, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
    The case of Czech Republic and Sweden

    Looking at the odds of euro 2004, and knowing how it played out, players of Czech Republic and Sweden might be looked at. I think those had a few good players of a certain quality, yet I also see some of them didn't play enough (Rosicky) or had like Anders Svensson (one of the better players of the 2002WC) a particularly bad season.

    William Hill (and other bookmakers) grouped them as this:

    1. France and Italy
    3. Portugal (hosts, european club champion, golden generation + porto players in one team)
    4. Spain, Netherlands, England
    7. Czech Republic and Germany
    9. Sweden
    10. Denmark
    11. Croatia, Greece, Russia


    Even previews of non-football countries (Australia) didn't underestimate the potential of Czech Republic and Sweden:
    https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/who-theyll-play-20040608-gdxzvz.html

    Ibrahimovic had back then a reputation to be much better in evening games (similar to Boniek). Cruijff was famous in his criticism of him ("good technique for a bad footballer, bad technique [and overview] for a good footballer").

    It's something to think about. Relatively unfashionable players like Mellberg and Jankulovski are already in (unfashionable compared to Larsson, Ibra and Ljungberg).

    http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/02/22/teams-of-the-decade-8-czech-republic-2004/


    Netherlands players

    I think the correct ones are included. The likes of Robben (saw you mentioned him in 2004) and Van Bommel (missed euro 2004) had injury plagued seasons. Where to place them is a different matter.

    At the same time I think few of those had really one of their most prominent seasons (Cocu gained more fame in the next one, with e.g. two goals in the UCL semi final, a goal in the quarter final). I watched the 2004-05 Manchester United season review and again noticed Van Nistelrooij was a much better footballer than he at hindsight gets credit for.

    By the time all of the '95 Ajax generation had retired (in 2013) Davids had played in four CL finals, Seedorf and VdS in five (all as starters). Only Maldini had played in more than Davids did at the time (six). That's fairly remarkable for this generation, from a small country with limited resources/power and those three playing for very different clubs, and often doesn't get the recognition. They were integral, skilled, arguably influential and pretty complete players in the spine of the team but somehow the recognition is generally a bit lacking (before the advent of the all-dominant superclubs). In comparison to the Holland generations before too.

    One could argue Bergkamp didn't play enough minutes (was carefully managed) but when he did he was frequently excellent and also quite productive still with pre-assists, assists, goals and unlocking passes. His teamwork/ticking and defensive contribution was also not too bad.

    Maybe that there is a case for Van Bronckhorst (played together with Cocu and Xavi the most minutes of his team; in the 2005-06 CL he was the only player to play and start all matches) but don't think he - and many of his team-mates - was good in the first half of the season and needed time to adapt. I've seen his DBScalcio grade is poor for this season and better in the next three (also for Thuram somewhat surprisingly).

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/netherlands-euro-2004-squad.115847/

    It's by the way interesting what he said himself to AFP, to VI and then in 2012.
    Show Spoiler
    Dutch defender Giovanni van Bronckhorst is feeling particularly comfortable with his team's new formation going into their Euro 2004 opener against Germany.

    Coach Dick Advocaat has opted for a 4-3-3 formation, switching from a conventional 4-4-2 just as Van Bronckhorst's club Barcelona did with great success last season.

    "The 4-4-2 was not a system that made us unhappy but it simply didn't work out," the 29-year-old told Reuters.

    "Our comeback started when we changed the system. (Dutch midfielder) Edgar Davids was added to the team and (Brazilian playmaker) Ronaldinho started playing on the left instead of his usual spot behind the strikers."

    Van Bronckhorst's surprising loan move to Barcelona at the beginning of the season changed a lot for the former Arsenal player who has now signed a three-year contract with the Spanish club.

    "At the start the of this season my expectations were not so high as I was far away from being a regular at Arsenal and that is what I needed," he said.

    "The coach (Arsene Wenger) had the same idea and approached me when Barcelona showed interest. That move changed everything for me."

    An excellent season in Spain in which he helped Barcelona finish second in the Primera Liga behind Valencia has now been rewarded with a spot as starting left back in the Dutch team.

    "Since the match against Greece (last April) I started all matches and that gives me confidence," Van Bronckhorst said. "There have been a lot of discussion about the left defensive spot, but now I feel sure about my spot.

    "But I have to play my best otherwise it is likely that (Boudewijn) Zenden will play because he also can fill in that position."
    ----------

    After a strong season with Barcelona, Van Bronckhorst traveled to Portugal in shape. Thanks to Frank Rijkaard and Henk ten Cate.

    With what feeling did you start this European Championship?

    Based on the practice games, we didn't seem ready, but the first week in Portugal made me feel good. We have not brought what we can and must bring against Belgium and Ireland. We have discussed this extensively. The 4-4-2 system with the diamond in the midfield has been modified. Of course there was a discussion about the way of playing, but that's how it always is: 23 football players, 23 opinions. We are all aligned now. Everyone knows the 4-3-3, because we grew up with that. It is nice that we can always fall back on this. When we get through the first round, the road is open to perhaps more. "

    Is it better for you as a left back to play in 4-3-3?

    "I think so. We also play that system with Barcelona, although the front three have a bit more freedom there. At the ball I have more options to find a solution, because the field occupation is optimal. The last exhibition game against Ireland, I had no one in front of me, so I was forced to play the entire left flank. In the spaces that became available there was a midfielder or a back from Ireland. That made it difficult for me and I indicated that too. It is important that we create spaces, instead of leaving them to the opponent. We've worked hard on that. "

    Do you now have the status to be able to discuss this?

    "Yes, why not? If things don't go well in the match and I suffer from that as a left-back, it seems logical to me to say something about it. Against Ireland I had to build up play, join up to midfield and cross the ball. That's not a problem at certain times, but I can't possibly do it the whole game. That's what I told the trainer. "

    After a good season in Barcelona, you started the European Championship in good shape.

    "I feel strong. Physically I am completely fine. At the beginning of this season I dreamed of the situation I am in now. I really doubted whether I would experience the European Championship, especially after I was relegated to the stands for the second play-off match against Scotland and had to drop out for the next exhibition game (with the United States in February, ed.) due to an injury. That was difficult, but in retrospect I think it made me stronger. It was an additional motivation to perform well with Barcelona. "

    For EURO 2000, you also had a good season with Glasgow Rangers. What is the difference from then?

    "I am four years further now. I am better and physically stronger anyway than in 2000, although I also started as a basic player against the Czech Republic. After a suspension, Arthur Numan then returned to the team. He played so well that it was at my expense. After that Arthur got injured, so I still played the semifinal against Italy. "

    You have been with Orange for more than eight years. How is it that you never succeeded in becoming a real fixed value?

    "Due to injuries. After EURO 2000 I continued to play, but then I first got a nasty groin injury and then I ruptured a cruciate ligament. In total, I spent two years worrying. Add to that the missed World Cup in Japan and South Korea and you can conclude that I actually missed four years. Only in the qualifying series for Portugal did I really rejoin the group. Not that it bothers me, but I am sorry, because I could have had many more international matches to my name. After my injuries I know how to put things into perspective. I am already very happy to be part of it again and playing with teams where I can win. "

    Do you have the feeling that you are the left back of Orange?

    "No, because I don't think anyone in Orange can claim a base place. To become a real fixture, I have to keep performing constantly. I am working on that now and it is important that I keep it up. It is also my ambition: I want to become the permanent left back of the Dutch national team. Few really want to play there but I do."

    How have you changed as a footballer in Spain?

    "Not really as a footballer, but I have gained so much confidence in Barcelona that that is what made me strong. For that I am grateful to Frank Rijkaard and Henk ten Cate. From the first moment I reported to Barça (early this season, ed.) They expressed their confidence in me. I have not been ashamed of that. I have played particularly well in the last six months, but that is also because the team played fantastic. The way we played with Barcelona reminded me of Arsenal. Being dominant and feeling invincible. "

    Do you understand the turmoil of the last few weeks in the Netherlands? Surveys before the European Championship showed that fewer and fewer people believe in a possible European title of Orange.

    "If it is true that you are as good as your last game, then I can understand something about it. Against Belgium and Ireland it was not good what we showed, but we know that ourselves. This group is more full with criticism than everyone thinks. We also think about football, why it was not going well and what we should do to improve and turn around matches. We talk a lot about that in the hotel. Everyone hated that it was not running, so we are all keen to play a good tournament. I can taste it in everything. "

    You may be the only Dutch player in Barcelona next season. How does that affect the Dutch national team?

    "It doesn't have to be a problem. The European Championship is a good opportunity for those boys to enforce a contract with another good club. Orange can only benefit from this. I am sorry that they are leaving, but for me the number of Dutch people was not a condition for renewing my contract. I have reached an agreement with Barcelona on a four-year commitment. I just have to draw it, but that is a formality. First I want to play a good European Championship, only then do I fully focus on Barcelona again. "
    ---------
    His departure in the summer of 2007, losing the championship on head to head result at the last day, left a small void. The disappearance of the left flank automatisms contributed to Ronaldinho losing his hine.
    [...]
    "My connection with Rijkaard was very good, in the run-up to euro 2000. He selected me often. So I didn't hesitate for a second when he called me with the request to join Barcelona, after the board had scouted me as a useful player. As a coach I estimate Rijkaard very highly. His best merit? Be consequential.

    With consequential I mean for example sticking to the principles of the so called Dutch school. Also when we didn't do well in the first season. We saved him halfway, around newyear 2004 with a 0-1 victory against Sevilla. From then on it started to work, also because he moved Ronaldinho to the left wing, what he didn't like initially. What Van Gaal also tried to do with Rivaldo, so to say."

    "He tickled the players in different ways. He communicated to Puyol in a different style as Ronaldinho. He left him in his value, accepted what he was, high risk, high reward. In Holland they complain and nag eternally about thing. Straight to the point, problematic acceptance of hierarchy, and the coach at times more like a first among equals rather than a enlightened, benevolent and kind-hearted dictator. This connects well to the sober guys up north, but it unfolds badly with the proud people from the south. Frank searched a distinct approach, he didn't correct or embarrass someone in company of the group. He took care of the senses, better still: the sensitivities of the players."

    "About the defensive work in an attacking environment we can set up a tree. The defense was regularly under threat to get embarrassed. He asked from his defenders, Marquez more so than Puyol, to provide a footballing solution. I agree with that, but hinted to Frank I found it fairly hard to do. At the second dream team the full-backs played high. In principle you received the freedom to attack. That is: keeping the pitch wide, fill in the space in the depth with brains and composure, running down the line but not with 100 kilometres an hour all the time, deliver crosses and at loss of possession pressure on the kettle. We had as task to create an overflow on the wing with which you can dominate games."

    "To play as full-back behind Ronaldinho was an experience in itself. You enjoy the fantastic things he does, but you also know defensively and in the possession play he doesn't provide much. That is not in his nature. You have to anticipate well what happens in a flash with him, factor in the unexpected and worst case outcome."

    According to Gio the play can be summarized with 'pressure up front' and 'risk at the back'.

    "Ronaldinho smiled always, told jokes and was singing songs. Sincere cheerfulness. Did the move fail: smile again, next time better. I knew his strong points: score goals, great kicking technique, setting someone in front of goal. He was number one in the world and for me one of the five best of the first decade of the 21st century."


    In the main I think the correct ones are included although only a few of them were at their best and/or near the peak of their fame (by the international megaphones and media). E.g. Stam was very good in 2004 and got some Italian applause, but the zenith of his fame was more like 1999 or at a stretch even a year later when he performed great against his former club (Man United at home, on his normal position) and assisted+scored goals against Inter and Bayern in knock-out stages of the Champions League.
     
    comme repped this.
  12. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Which are the ones you are thinking of here?
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Of course I can't say this 100% secure because not of every year I have seen the same amount, and one tiny mistake doesn't immediately mean someone has not a near perfect campaign.

    The only viable candidates are here 1998-99, 1999-00, 2000-01, 2002-03, 2003-04. If I'm wrong please say so.

    The most 'overrated' seasons are 2001-02, 2009-10. His awards for 2002 are overinflated I think; his last season for Lazio was not very good. His most underrated is 2010-11.

    I rule out 1997-98 for instance because, although quite good (one of the best defenses of the league), it is visible he often needed fouls to stop opponents. This is also reflected in the 15 yellow cards he had this season (admittedly, had he played for Juventus you can cut down that figure by half ;) ). I think this disqualifies this campaign for the 'near perfect' bracket.

    His best are probably the middle three.
     
    comme repped this.
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Strangely, in ESM votes he was in many seasons supplanted by his partner in defense.

    Of these five seasons that is only in 2000-01 not the case (with Mihajlovic out injured). Not sure, to say the least, if that's accurate.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Will return tomorrow, but are there thoughts on Sami Hyypia and his ability? Unlike other seasons he doesn't get ESM votes at all, but his DBScalcio grade is very good. He started all 38 league games and is the only Liverpool player to have played over 50 games. With 5 goals he has only one goal less as Gerrard had (who had 6, including one penalty, but of course Gerrard had also 8 assists or so in all games). I think he was slow but in his positioning he was very good (at 'pes stats' they said: better than Rio Ferdinand). I have a vague memory of Hyypia belonging among the more important/influential Liverpool players at the time.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #16 PuckVanHeel, Mar 31, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
    Sorry that it is taking so long:

    Juventus players

    As mentioned briefly above, it is interesting the Juventus players rate so poorly. In DBScalcio Buffon is the 9th goalkeeper of the league (why is he nevertheless placed at the top in the starting post?), Thuram the 15th right back. Gazzetta dello Sport only rated Zambrotta, Conte, Nedved, Maresca and Davids (those last two became outcasts for dubious reasons) with a decent grade. The elevated Golden boy Buffon wasn't placed among the best handful keepers of the league.

    It's possible the results were better than the way they played. Their points tally, with games tanked at the end, was only a couple points lower as the previous two championship winning seasons. It's higher than when they won the league in 1996-97. I think Thuram in particular might be hard done by although his subsequent euro 2004 wasn't outstanding. Not many Juventus players played well at the european championships. The poor form of Del Piero (in actual reality) and departure of Davids, to name two things, hurt them a bit.

    For Inter I think Vieri and Stankovic are interesting players.

    Ernst & Baumann vs Frings & Hamann

    I was under the impression Frings and Hamann were the ones with the higher reputation at the time. Might be a result of playing for the national team and Champions League.

    Cristiano Ronaldo and Lahm

    Not sure whether those should already be in. It's (in many ways) interesting Cristiano already won a few fan votes, but his goals+assists productivity was very low (less than 2 chances created per 90 minutes), and was already taking 4 shots per 90 minutes. His DBScalcio grade is average, and lower than the peers in his position. Compare his goals and assists with the numbers of an out-of-form, criticized and slowed down Ryan Giggs. Giggs was basically two/three times as productive on the other wing (if you take away his set piece assists).

    Lahm makes much more sense (at euro 2004 he was good vs NED*, decent against Latvia and at fault for the two goals against Czech Republic) but has 'only' the 6th highest grade of his club team Stuttgart and although he was very offensively orientated (certainly at this time), he has only 1 goal and 5 assists in all competitions this season. Later on in his career he improved defensively but remained at times vulnerable when on the backfoot and his team not having the upper hand (for example Spain 2008).

    For Leverkusen Schneider, Neuville and Franca look interesting players. I've said it before but was often fond of Ze Roberto as well and his style of play (12 assists this season), but I can also understand why it might put off match graders who look at positions and players with pre-conceived ideas.



    I've condensed it now but basically this are some of the main things I noticed. I'd like to know if you had a look at certain (OPTA) statistics or indexes and which ones.

    edit: *) The BBC co-commentator says at the RvN goal though that this was the first good cross of the entire match by both teams.
     
    comme repped this.
  17. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    He was definitely among their most important players. Overall I think you have him right, a very good organizer and leader, strong in the air, not all that mobile but compensated in other ways for it.

    Liverpool had a pretty decent defense with only 37 goals conceded.

    He's certainly among their best players in recent years.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    PDG1978 repped this.
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    PDG1978 repped this.
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    To a degree I think this is a very acute summation of ratings in general.

    Collectively we often have a tendency to place players on levels and assume the all time greats were markedly better than all their peers.

    Yet of all the players in my lifetime there have been very few who have been a clear level above their peers. I mean even someone like prime Ronaldo didn't outscore an Oliver Bierhoff. Sometimes we can retrospectively add to the legend of some of the greats and credit them where we wouldn't credit others.

    I know I'm a victim of this in some of my rankings.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the sense of making an analogy with Ronaldo around 1998, I think it would be like having three Inter creative players (or attackers) as the top three. This while not delivering the top scorer by one of them, or the most goals scored by the team as a whole. Then I would also think: 'the best attack in the world, the best three attackers in the world, but not the record to show for it? Needs a thought.'

    Many things can be said about the Ronaldo case; among them, Ronaldo his excellence is better visible over a longer period of time (49 Serie A goals in 68 games), doing it at multiple levels at once (although both have 44 goals across all competitions in 1997-98), the clear statistical influence he had on his teams, and I also think Udinese was a bit less focused on the defensive side of play (in the Coppa Italia and Europe too). At the same time there was a lot of marketing power and stuff behind the scenes going on, and part of his standing rested on his special and unique style of play rather than this being effective or getting more goals than Inzaghi (and it was effective/influential most of the time). Clearly, this was still a more 'balanced' era as it is now (one relatively sub-standard Ajax team was still able to beat the #3 of the Serie A, the best league in the world; Feyenoord also winning games against Juventus and later Lazio around this time in the CL).
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Bierhoff
    57 goals in 86 serie A games:
    0.66 goals per game

    Ronaldo nazario
    49 goals in 68 games:
    0.72 goals per match


    Non penalty gpg

    Bierhoff
    49 goals in 86 serie A matches:
    0.57 goals per match

    Ronaldo nazario
    34 goals in 68 serie A games:
    0.5 goals per game
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/ronaldo/elfmetertore/spieler/3140
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/oliver-bierhoff/elfmetertore/spieler/56

    Original 'penaldo' ?
     
  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #23 Tropeiro, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
    Serie A

    R9 (Inter Milan, Milan) 43 Non-PK Goals, 15 PK Goals in 6767 minutes (75.2 x 90 minutes) (Transfermarkt)
    Per 90 minutes 0.57 Non-PK Goals ===> 0.77 Goals
    Drop of 0.20 excluding PKs

    Cristiano Ronaldo (Juventus) per 90 minutes 30 Non-PK Goals, 12 PK Goals in 4634 minutes (51.5 x 90 minutes)
    Per 90 minutes 0.58 Non-PK Goals ==> 0.815 Goals
    Drop of 0.23 excluding PKs

    R9 scored less Goals from PK in La Liga tho.
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #24 carlito86, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
    1997/98

    'Complete attacker' R9:
    5 assists in 32 serie A appearances
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ronaldo-luís-názario-de-lima-at-internazionale.1974638/

    Bierhoff
    4 assists in 27 serie A appearances
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/olive...97&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=

    Not only did bierhoff outscore a prime version of R9 but assisted at an identical rate too

    Bierhoff in 97/98 serie A outscored R9
    including penalties
    Excluding penalties
    And assisted at the same rate too

    Maybe nobody in the 95-05 generation was truly a cut above the rest
    Zidane seems to be the only one who's record has been put under the microscope
     
  25. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #25 Tropeiro, Apr 5, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
    Now, Ronaldo Nazario won 8 of those 15 penalties he scored (Lecce, Milan 99, Venezia, Fiorentina, Bari, Vicenza, Napoli, Milan 97), so 51 Non-PK Goals + PK won and scored Goals in 6767 minutes.... or if only in Internazionale 42 Goals in 5386 minutes an average of 0.70 per 90 minutes.

    Cristiano, on the other hand, just won 1 of those 12 penalties he scored (Genoa), so 31 Non-PK Goals + PK won and scored Goals in 4634 minutes, an average of 0.60 per 90 minutes.

    In the 68 Matches Ronaldo Nazario played in Serie A Inter scored 127 Goals (1.87), in the 102 Matches he didn't Inter scored 161 Goals (1.59).
    R9 scored 42 Goals (NPK and PK won and scored) and had 11 assists.
    0.886 per 90 / 1.867 = 47,45%

    In the 53 Matches Cristiano Ronaldo played in Serie A Juventus scored 102 Goals (1.924), in the 11 he didn't Juventus scored 18 Goals (1.64).
    Cristiano scored 31 Goals (NPK and PK won and scored) and had 11 assists.
    0.816 per 90 / 1.924 = 42,4%

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Similar, but context:

    1- Cristiano Ronaldo had a more powerful team in his hand and played in a inferior Italian league: http://clubelo.com/2018-08-01/Ranking
    (Juve 1957 Points vs Serie A 1651 Points)

    2- R9 arrived in a good Inter but in the best rated league at that time http://clubelo.com/1997-08-01/Ranking (Inter 1836 Points vs Seria A 1727 Points)

    3- R9 in his only season free of injuries he improved Inter http://clubelo.com/1998-08-01/Ranking (1836 ---> 1911, Serie A improved)

    4 - While Cristiano did not (Juventus losing Coppa Italia, not reaching Semifinals in the CL like in 2017, Juventus scoring less Goals in Serie A than the season before, 86 to 70) http://clubelo.com/2019-08-01/Ranking (1957 ---> 1968, Serie A in decline)

    Of course R9 was more fouled and completed more dribbles per 90 at that time than CR7 did now.

    What you can argue that R9 had in Inter less assists than CR7 now in Juventus. OK.
    R9 had 0.184 assists per 90 minuntes, and CR7 a bit more, 0.214 assists per 90, but Cristiano Ronaldo has a xA (expected assists) of 0.18 per 90 in Serie A (check understat), it means that the players he's creating chances are maximizing those chances. 0.18 xA is the same number of what Ronaldo did in his Serie A, no more no less.

    In resume: R9 had better stats (Goals + Assists, Fouls Won, Dribbles completed) per 90 minutes in one much tougher Serie A (the toughest of his time) with a lesser team. All of this at the age of 21 and then suffering with constant injuries and what it brings all.

    And you spoke about Bierhoff (in his most prolific season), but what about over 30yo Mertens and Ilicic putting better stats than Cristiano in the last two seasons?

    [​IMG]

    Ilicic, for example, is dribbling more than Cristiano.... scoring more, passing more, assisting more, being more fouled... and different than Bierhoff that was a pure striker, Ilicic is all over the pitch.

    Data per 90:

    [​IMG]

    and he is 32, not 29 like the German was in 97/98 (29 is still considered for most, part of the peak years, not 21 and not over 30+).

    Josip is just outclassing the portuguese Ronaldo in evey possible manner in the Serie A!!!



    In fact the rumour of Cristiano wanting to leave Juventus must be partly because of that, he knows that the Ilicic type stats is out of his reach (even in his called peak). In 11/12 Liga, the maximum peak of Cristiano according his fans, the portuguese completed less than 2 dribbles, about 1.6 Key passes, 37.7 passes and was fouled 2.5 times per 90 minutes; all inferior numbers if compared.
     

Share This Page