As ever, your thoughts please on the best players of the season for 1997-8: Goalkeepers Gianluca Pagliuca Angelo Peruzzi Ruud Hesp Toni Michael Konsel Oliver Kahn Peter Schmeichel Gianluigi Buffon David Seaman Nigel Martyn Fabien Barthez Recber Rustu Luca Marchegiani Fullbacks Gary Neville Roberto Carlos Sergi Cafu Javier Zanetti Nigel Winterburn Carlos Aguilera Graeme Le Saux Dan Petrescu Oleg Luzhnyi Central defenders Fernando Hierro Alessandro Nesta Fabio Cannavaro Giuseppe Bergomi Laurent Blanc Lilian Thuram Jaap Stam Tomas Repka Olaf Thon Christian Worns Tony Adams Martin Keown Roberto Rios Rafael Alkorta Ivan Campo Mauricio Pochettino Frank Leboeuf Mark Iuliano Sol Campbell Martin Djetou Matt Elliott Defensive midfielders Edgar Davids Diego Simeone Luigi Di Biagio Roman Mahlich Albert Celades Nicky Butt David Batty Dietmarr Hamann Carsten Ramelow Central midfielders Fernando Redondo Juan Sebastian Veron Emmanuel Petit Dietmar Hamann Richard Witschge Clarence Seedorf Dmitry Alenichev Craig Burley Patrick Vieira Ciriaco Sforza Antonio Conte Aron Winter Neil Redfearn Giancarlo Marrochi Giuliano Giannicheda Vladimir Jugovic Paul Ince Alain Boghossian Mazinho Stefan Effenberg Attacking midfielders Zinedine Zidane Rivaldo Rui Costa Hannes Reinmayr Stephane Ziani Mehmet Scholl Thomas Hassler Youri Djorkaeff Francesco Totti Julen Guerrero Dejan Stankovic Krassimir Balakov Rai Gheorghe Hagi Ja-Jay Okocha Dejan Curovic Wingers Luis Figo Ryan Giggs Pavel Nedved Luis Enrique Ray Parlour Marc Overmars Francesco Moriero David Beckham Thomas Helveg Robert Pires David Ginola Angelo Di Livio Sergio Conceicao Diego Fuser Joseba Etxeberria Forwards Alessandro Del Piero Roberto Baggio Dennis Bergkamp Francesco Totti Jari Litmanen Raul Victor Ikpeba Sergei Rebrov Paulo Sergio Vladimir Smicer Strikers Ronaldo Oliver Bierhoff Alfonso Gabriel Batistuta Vincenzo Montella Christian Vieri Andriy Shevchenko Mario Jardel Shota Arveladze Nikos Mahlas Olaf Marschall Ulf Kirsten Stephane Guivarc’h Filippo Inzaghi Chris Sutton Dion Dublin Michael Owen Darko Kovacevic Mario Jardel Hakan Sukur Kennet Andersson
+ Chilavert. Top-2 of the year/ season with Barthez if not #1 I'd say, if I had to rank the players by category.
Sorry, I should have said, it only includes those based in Europe. I'd like to include South America but don't have the information to attempt it properly.
On how South American leagues would fit in the picture; Although even in the 1960s several big names went to Europe (risking/ending their national team career) those places should esp. be considered before 1995 I think yes. At hindsight the years at Santos by Neymar shouldn't be totally discarded I think, because he adapted later to a higher level (I feel the same way about Henrik Larsson at Celtic, as PDG also felt I saw him remarking recently). Encounters against European clubs are generally sparse and tough to interpret. Either way, I found that informative graphs personally. I agree Chilavert was one of the better GKs that year (plus world cup; maybe my impression was informed the most by his spectacular highlights + national team games? he was a good goallie for highlights that they showed around the time).
Nice extensive list by comme. I wonder about Ajax players (Puck can probably help) - Michael Laudrup as might be expected, Ronald de Boer (perhaps I'm influenced by his good performances in the 98 WC though as it doesn't always follow that form in the main season in general and form in a WC are closely linked), perhaps Sunday Oliseh? From the PL contingent, the one I'd recommend for *** for sure would be Bergkamp, but I think Owen and Giggs and probably other Arsenal players in Overmars and Vieira too could easily get ** very reasonably.
Are you thinking of the World Cup? If so, I'm not including that here but will do for a separate thread. In terms of the league season I think yes to Deschamps, probably no to Desailly and Lizarazu (who didn't play enough for Bayern).
Maybe this adds insight for Ajax (although I was hoping there might be individual player write-ups for the season): http://www.afc-ajax.info/en/season/1997-98 Ronald de Boer just credited with a couple of assists, although I guess just the final pass was counting and it doesn't mean he wasn't being involved in construction of many goals. Laudrup with 9 credited assists to add to the 13 goals, while not playing a huge percentage of games and coming off quite often (that can be read two ways I suppose for this type of exercise, but I guess he was being used like Wenger often started to use Bergkamp when he got to a certain age, after this season in question of course - he was surprised recently to be told by Henry in an interview for Sky that Bergkamp was the player he subbed off the most). I hadn't really associated this period with Litmanen so much, but perhaps he's still worth considering even (a year later he took the Ajax Player of the Year award again I see).
This was my initial suggestion: Goalkeepers Peter Schmeichel (Manchester United and Denmark) 32 games, 0 goals *** Gianluca Pagliuca (Inter and Italy) 34 games, 0 goals ** Angelo Peruzzi (Juventus and Italy) 31 games, 0 goals ** Oliver Kahn (Bayern Munich and Germany) 34 games, 0 goals ** Fabien Barthez (Monaco and France) 30 games, 0 goals ** Ruud Hesp (Barcelona and Netherlands) 36 games, 0 goals * Toni (Espanyol and Spain) 37 games, 0 goals * Michael Konsel (Roma and Austria) 29 games, 0 goals * Gianluigi Buffon (Parma and Italy) 32 games, 0 goals * Edwin van der Sar (Ajax and Netherlands) 33 games, 0 goals * David Seaman (Arsenal and England) 31 games, 0 goals * Nigel Martyn (Leeds and England) 37 games, 0 goals * Recber Rustu (Fenerbahce and Turkey) 33 games, 0 goals * Luca Marchegiani (Lazio and Italy) 33 games, 0 goals * Fullbacks Roberto Carlos (Real Madrid and Brazil) 35 games, 4 goals *** Gary Neville (Manchester United and England) 30 games, 1 goal ** Sergi (Barcelona and Spain) 31 games, 2 goals * Moreno Torricelli (Juventus and Italy) 20 games, 0 goals * Cafu (Roma and Brazil) 31 games, 1 goal * Javier Zanetti (Inter and Argentina) 28 games, 0 goals * Nigel Winterburn (Arsenal and England) 36 games, 1 goal * Carlos Aguilera (Atletico Madrid and Spain) 36 games, 2 goals * Graeme Le Saux (Chelsea and England) 26 games, 1 goal * Dan Petrescu (Chelsea and Romania) 31 games, 5 goals * Lee Dixon (Arsenal and England) 28 games, 0 goals * Central defenders Fernando Hierro (Real Madrid and Spain) 28 games, 3 goals *** Alessandro Nesta (Lazio and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals *** Tony Adams (Arsenal and England) 26 games, 3 goals ** Laurent Blanc (Marseille and France) 31 games, 11 goals ** Giuseppe Bergomi (Inter and Italy) 28 games, 0 goals ** Fabio Cannavaro (Parma and Italy) 31 games, 0 goals * Lilian Thuram (Parma and France) 32 games, 0 goals * Jaap Stam (PSV Eindhoven and Netherlands) 29 games, 4 goals * Olaf Thon (Schalke and Germany) 29 gamesm 1 goal * Christian Worns (Bayer Leverkusen and Germany) 29 games, 0 goals * Roberto Rios (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 32 games, 2 goals * Rafael Alkorta (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 29 games, 1 goal * Ivan Campo (Mallorca and Spain) 33 games, 1 goal * Mauricio Pochettino (Espanyol and Argentina) 35 games, 2 goals * Frank de Boer (Ajax and Netherlands)31 games, 5 goals * Frank Leboeuf (Chelsea and France) 32 games, 5 goals * Thomas Helmer (Bayern Munich and Germany) 28 games, 1 goal * Mark Iuliano (Juventus and Italy) 25 games, 1 goal * Sol Campbell (Tottenham and England) 34 games, 0 goals * Miroslav Kadlec (Kaiserslautern and Czech Republic) 32 games, 1 goal * Michael Schoenberg (Kaiserslautern and Denmark) 32 games, 4 goals * Martin Djetou (Monaco and France) 24 games, 3 goals * Matt Elliott (Leicester City and Scotland) 32 games, 7 goals * Tomas Repka (Sparta Prague and Czech Republic) 28 games, 2 goals * Defensive midfielders Edgar Davids (Milan/Juventus and Netherlands) 4 games, 0 goals for Milan, 20 games, 2 goal for Juventus ** Diego Simeone (Inter and Argentina) 30 games, 6 goals ** Didier Deschamps (Juventus and France) 25 games, 2 goals ** Luigi Di Biagio (Roma and Italy) 30 games, 7 goals * Dietmar Hamann (Bayern Munich and Germany) 28 games, 2 goals * Carsten Ramelow (Bayer Leverkusen and Germany) 33 games, 2 goals * Roman Mahlich (Sturm Graz and Austria) 32 games, 4 goals * Albert Celades (Barcelona and Spain) 36 games, 0 goals * Nicky Butt (Manchester United and England) 33 games, 3 goals * David Batty (Newcastle United and England) 32 games, 1 goal * Central midfielders Fernando Redondo (Real Madrid and Argentina) 33 games, 0 goals *** Juan Sebastian Veron (Sampdoria and Argentina) 29 games, 2 goals ** Emmanuel Petit (Arsenal and France) 32 games, 2 goals ** Patrick Vieira (Arsenal and France) 33 games, 2 goals ** Ciriaco Sforza (Kaiserslautern and Switzerland) 32 games, 3 goals ** Antonio Conte (Juventus and Italy) 28 games, 4 goals ** Clarence Seedorf (Real Madrid and Netherlands) 36 games, 6 goals * Aron Winter (Inter and Netherlands) 24 games, 0 goals * Giancarlo Marrochi (Bologna and Italy) 31 games, 1 goal * Richard Witschge (Ajax and Netherlands) 29 games, 2 goals * Vladimir Jugovic (Lazio and Yugoslavia) 27 games, 2 goals * Paul Ince (Liverpool and England) 31 games, 8 goals * Alain Boghossian (Sampdoria and France) 31 games, 6 goals * Mazinho (Celta Vigo and Brazil) 37 games, 1 goal * Dmitry Alenichev (Spartak Moscow and Russia) 33 games, 2 goals * Craig Burley (Celtic and Scotland) 35 games, 10 goals * Stefan Effenberg (Borussia Moenchengladbach and Germany) 28 games, 1 goal Neil Redfearn (Barnsley and England) 37 games, 10 goals * Giuliano Giannicheda (Udinese and Italy) 30 games, 1 goal * Attacking midfielders Zinedine Zidane (Juventus and France) 32 games, 7 goals *** Rivaldo (Barcelona and Brazil) 34 games, 19 goals *** Rui Costa (Fiorentina and Portugal) 32 games, 3 goals *** Stephane Ziani (Lens and France) 32 games, 11 goals ** Mehmet Scholl (Bayern Munich and Germany) 32 games, 9 goals ** Thomas Hassler (Karlsruher and Germany) 34 games, 12 goals * Youri Djorkaeff (Inter and France) 29 games, 8 goals * Krassimir Balakov (Stuttgart and Bulgaria) 31 games, 11 goals * Rai (PSG and Brazil) 29 games, 10 goals * Julen Guerrero (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 29 games, 8 goals * Dejan Stankovic (Red Star Belgrade and Yugoslavia) 28 games, 15 goals * Michael Laudrup (Ajax and Denmark) 21 games, 11 goals Gheorghe Hagi (Galatasaray and Romania) 30 games, 8 goals * Jay-Jay Okocha (Fenerbahce and Nigeria) 30 games, 14 goals * Dejan Curovic (Vitesse and Yugoslavia) 27 games, 17 goals * Hannes Reinmayr (Sturm Graz and Austria) 33 games, 15 goals * Wingers Luis Figo (Barcelona and Portugal) 35 games, 5 goals *** Pavel Nedved (Lazio and Czech Republic) 26 games, 11 goals *** Luis Enrique (Barcelona and Spain) 34 games, 18 goals ** Marc Overmars (Arsenal and Netherlands) 32 games, 12 goals ** Ryan Giggs (Manchester United and Wales) 29 games, 8 goals ** David Beckham (Manchester United and England) 37 games, 9 goals ** Ray Parlour (Arsenal and England) 34 games, 5 goals * Francesco Moriero (Inter and Italy) 28 games, 3 goals * Joseba Etxeberria (Athletic Bilbao and Spain) 36 games, 11 goals * Thomas Helveg (Udinese and Denmark) 28 games, 0 goals * Robert Pires (Metz and France) 31 games, 11 goals * David Ginola (Tottenham and France) 34 games, 6 goals * Angelo Di Livio (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals * Sergio Conceicao (Porto and Portugal) 30 games, 8 goals * Diego Fuser (Lazio and Italy) 32 games, 8 goals * Forwards Alessandro Del Piero (Juventus and Italy) 32 games, 21 goals *** Dennis Bergkamp (Arsenal and Netherlands) 28 games, 16 goals *** Roberto Baggio (Bologna and Italy) 30 games, 22 goals ** Francesco Totti (Roma and Italy) 30 games, 13 goals ** Jari Litmanen (Ajax and Finland) 25 games, 16 goals ** Predrag Mijatovic (Real Madrid and Yugoslavia) 24 games, 10 goals ** Sergei Rebrov (Dynamo Kiev and Ukraine) 29 games, 22 goals ** Raul (Real Madrid and Spain) 35 games, 10 goals * Victor Ikpeba (Monaco and Nigeria) 30 games, 16 goals * Paulo Sergio (Roma and Brazil) 34 games, 12 goals * Vladimir Smicer (Lens and Czech Republic) 28 games, 7 goals * Strikers Ronaldo (Inter and Brazil) 32 games, 25 goals *** Oliver Bierhoff (Udinese and Germany) 32 games, 27 goals *** Christian Vieri (Atletico Madrid and Italy) 24 games, 24 goals *** Gabriel Batistuta (Fiorentina and Argentina) 31 games, 21 goals ** Stephane Guivarc’h (Auxerre and France) 32 games, 21 goals ** Nikos Mahlas (Vitesse and Greece) 32 games, 34 goals ** Olaf Marschall (Kaiserslautern and Germany) 24 games, 21 goals ** Ulf Kirsten (Bayer Leverkusen and Germany) 27 games, 22 goals ** Vincenzo Montella (Sampdoria and Italy) 33 games, 20 goals * Andriy Shevchenko (Dynamo Kiev and Ukraine) 23 games, 19 goals * Alfonso (Real Betis and Spain) 31 games, 11 goals * Mario Jardel (Porto and Brazil) 30 games, 26 goals * Shota Arveladze (Ajax and Georgia) 30 games, 25 goals * Filippo Inzaghi (Juventus and Italy) 31 games, 18 goals * Chris Sutton (Blackburn and England) 35 games, 18 goals * Dion Dublin (Coventry and England) 36 games, 18 goals * Michael Owen (Liverpool and England) 36 games, 18 goals * Darko Kovacevic (Real Sociedad and Yugoslavia) 33 games, 17 goals * Hakan Sukur (Galatasaray and Turkey) 34 games, 32 goals * Kennet Andersson (Bologna and Sweden) 32 games, 12 goals * David Trezeguet (Monaco and France) 27 games, 18 goals * Marco Simone (PSG and Italy) 28 games, 13 goals * Marco Negri (Rangers and Italy) 29 games, 32 goals *
You had some old Football Italia issues isn't it? Had that one some interesting summaries and lists too?
Some quite interesting articles and bits but not as much as I had hoped. They were a lot of match reports (particularly for European games) and tons of player profiles. A lot of it is news focused and talking about potential upcoming transfers. It does have player ratings for some sort of fantasy game as well and these tie up pretty closely to those of DBS Calcio.
Similar to 96/97 where there's a couple I might think of bumping up without objecting as such - Shevchenko who might suffer from lack of games?, and Owen as mentioned. The *** choices all seem very understandable I think anyway.
This was my suggested ranking: 1. Del Piero 2. Ronaldo 3. Zidane 4. Rivaldo 5. Bergkamp 6. Bierhoff 7. Figo 8. Roberto Carlos 9. Hierro 10. Vieri 11. Rui Costa 12. Nesta 13. Nedved 14. Redondo 15. Schmeichel
In what respect was Zidane better in 1997-98 than 1996-97? (a category higher I mean) Personally I'd have Ronaldo on top here although I'm aware of Moratti's recurring criticism. In normal circumstances he simply wins the league. Bergkamp his goals and high assist count over Rivaldo's 19 league goals (0 goals in 6 games in Europe) but most probably I'm not neutral.
Hmmm, after taking a look again I can see the idea for Del Piero on top. He has possibly/arguably the same number of 'pros' and fewer 'cons'. It's between those two. Still wondering about Zidane, compared to his 1996-97 self.
I had less to go on in terms of his negatives. In 1996-7 I remembered him as being great but there were points about his consistency in the European Football Yearbook and Bugs Bunny's posts had him as not one of the players highest rated by La Stampa in their review of the Juve season. This year the European Football Yearbook said his season was "if anything, better" than the previous one and I had no more negatives. His ratings were very similar to the previous year. He was very close to getting it in 1996-7 but I remembered (potentially imperfectly) him being better in the second season.
Yes, the ratings were very similar. I know that it is not perfect and the ratings of the referees are the ultimate proof, lol (although Colina was by a mile the best rated. Gap of 0.30 with the rest). With some players I wonder whether it's totally fair that ratings can vary a lot, Mihaijlovic for example. Equally interesting is to compare those players with team mates.
Seriously? I think Ronaldo was the best by far ... in this season he showed his highest peak (in the first semester) and showed all his individual resources, more than any other season.
L'équipe type de la D1 France Football (based on les étoiles) : ------------------------------Barthez ------------------- --------------------------(Monaco, 3,57)-------------- --Séb. Perez ----L. Blanc----Song----Dos Santos -(Bastia, 3,34)---(OM, 3,935)-(Metz, 3,39)-(Montpellier, 3,31) -------------------------------Ferri----------------------------- -----------------------------(Nantes, 3,73)---------------------- --S. Ziani------------------Dhorasoo------------Gravelaine (Lens, 3,65)--------------(Le Havre, 3,94)--------(OM, 3,66) ----------------------Guivarc'h------------Simone--------------- ---------------------(Auxerre, 3,5)-------(PSG, 3,5)------- Other players with at least 3,30 (= top-30) : M. Soumah (CB Bastia, 3,63), Bigné (MF Rennes, 3,62), Déhu (DM/ DF Lens, 3,59), Boffin (LM Metz, 3,59), Collet (MF Strasbourg, 3,59), Blanchard (MF Metz, 3,58), Pires (F/ 10, Metz, 3,55), Moreau (Toulouse, MF/10, 3,53), Meyrieu (Metz, MF/10, 3,5), Roy (OM DM, 3,48), Rizzetto (Montpellier MF/10, 3,48), Kastendeuch (LIB Metz, 3,47), Lachuer (MF/ 10 Auxerre, 3,46), Smicer (F/W Lens, 3,46), Wallemme (LIB Lens, 3,39), Song (CB Metz, 3,39), Moreira (F Guingamp, 3,38), Gava (MF/AM/W PSG, 3,37), Makelele (DM OM, 3,35), Micoud (MF/ 10 Bordeaux, 3,34), Mendy (F Bastia, 3,33), Pollet (DF Le Havre, 3,32), Rodriguez (F/ CF Metz, 3,32), Moreau (CB Bastia, 3,31), Dumas (LIB Monaco, 3,31), Lamouchi (MF/ RM Auxerre, 3,30), Soloy (MF Le Havre, 3,30), Gourvennec (AM/10 Nantes, 3,30), Okpara (DF Strasbourg 3,30). Domoraud (OM), Gaillot (Metz), Arribagé (Toulouse) all CB's at 3,29. Mihali & Baret 3,28. Cocard 3,27, Diomède, Laslandes, Le Roux, Baticle 3,26. Da Rocha 3,25. Goussé 3,24. Pavon, Pierre, Dacourt, Maharzi 3,23 = top-50. Rai 3,21 and lone #55. Coco Michel of Guingamp #54 with 3,22. = full top-55. All Goalkeepers with at least 26 matches : 1. Barthez (Monaco), 3,57. 2. Durand (Bastia), 3,56 3. Köpke (OM), 3,55 4. Richert (Toulouse), 3,48 5. Warmuz (Lens), 3,44 6. Letizi (Metz), 3,41 7. Landreau (Nantes), 3,39 8. Heurtebis (Rennes), 3,38 9. Vencel (Strasbourg), 3,34 10. Guéguen (Châteauroux), 3,33 11. Coupet (Lyon), 3,32 11. Revault (PSG), 3,32 13. Martini (Montpellier), 3,22 Vikash Dhorasso for the outfield players won the trophée des étoiles for a tad over Laurent Blanc (3,9411 against 3,9354 precisely) and Fabien Barthez won it for the keepers for a tad over Eric Durand and Andreas Köpke. The scoring charts can be found anywhere. Here are the assisters' ranking according to FF : 1. Micoud (Bordeaux) with 12 assists. 2. Benarbia (Monaco), 9. 3. Guivarc'h (Auxerre) and Dhorasoo (Le Havre), 8. 5. Ziani (Lens) and Pirès (Metz), 7. 7. Meyrieu (Metz), 6. 8. Diomède (Auxerre), Laslandes (Bordeaux), Prat (Le Havre), Brunel (Lens), Echouafni, Gravelaine (Marseille), Ikpeba (Monaco), Robert (Montpellier), 5. 16. Lachuer (Auxerre), Leroy (Cannes), Baret, Rouxel (Guingamp), Smicer (Lens), Delmotte (Lyon), Lukic (Metz), Henry, N'Doram, Trezeguet (Monaco), Simone (PSG), Goussé (Rennes), Maharzi (Toulouse), 4. Etc. "a good league season but the effects of the exodus of the best players starts to be felt" In gross. Note 1 : it was the last season of N'Doram due to injury (did not play at all in '98, stopped in winter). Note 2 (seen in another issue) : just prior to the World Cup when Jacquet had not decided on the 22 yet but (apparently/ unnoficially) only a core of 18 players (incl. 2 gks), E. Petit was not amongst the favorite of FF to make the final squad as they thought it would be either Ibrahim Ba or Sabri Lamouchi (i.e a RM). Henry was concurrenced by Anelka who was on the rise when Henry had a dot but with Trezeguet they were a pair so... FF had no pronostic on this one but kept the suspense... there was some hot stuff going on about Henry "lately"... rumors, "secret things" said on him to journalists by some guy (not published)... but well. Some people were after him it seems, denigrated him. About the remaining spots in the squad, I don't remember exactly now although I just read it 1 hour ago... the 3rd keeper, defenders...well (Boghossian was a lock, in the group).
The best by far isn't outscored by Guivarc'h in the UEFA cup David suker in the world cup Olivier bierhoff in serie A Giuseppe signori in the coppa italia It is simply unprecedented And all those who outscored him played for demonstrably inferior teams The italian press in 1997/98 also dubbed ADP a "phenomenon" and he wasn't markedly inferior to R9 Neither in his statistical output and/or ability to singlehandedly turn/influence games It's simply an illusion maybe the greatest illusion I've seen in football regarding R9 (And his supposedly superlative level that cannot be reached or touched at inter Milan)
R9 that season (especially in the middle to the end) completed more dribbles and was more fouled than Bierhoff, Signori and Guivarch probably in all his life (maybe even Suker). The attention he got was impressive. ADP had a good season, but Juventus was already the best team of the world in that period and according to Elo method (Club Elo) Juventus won only 20 points compared to 60 of Inter that season. Inter was a good side like many others in Italy.
I only took a look at the top of the pile of mags but 1996-1997 is next for sure (started to type it). Edit : + btw we can see that Rigobert Song (fighting for the title with Metz) was preferred in the XI over Morlaye Soumah of Bastia who had the best average ratings.