Well, I said in the past it wasn't always clear what he was doing and which position he had. I don't want to claim I see this and others do not, but will focus here on ~2007 and then ~2011. Funnily, I started to re-think myself when he was playing in Brazil (as clear-cut attacking midfielder, having a clear influence on Botafogo and receiving individual awards there) and when in 2014 a 'Football's Greatest' episode appeared. It makes sense to re-calibrate, because certain things only become visible or established after multiple years rather than one season (e.g. the 'big game record', or what teams do without/before the player). My 'logical' conclusion was in a nutshell: yes, if you compare it to Bergkamp, Robben, Hazard or De Bruyne you can say he is 'lucky' ("0 Champions Leagues vs 5 Champions Leagues, huh?"). At the same time there are a handful tangible things and facts to nuance the 'lucky' claim, although I didn't place him as high as L'Equipe concluded on two occasions. I think in the defining stages of 2006-07 it is fair to say he played more advanced than Tigana ever did during his prominent moments. 'Transfermarkt' has him down as attacking midfielder in the knock-out games, while only 18% of all his Champions League matches are marked down as that (after 2007 he becomes a central midfielder again). I said above I see him as the 3rd most advanced player at this phase of his career. Before the semi final tie (for some this was the 'real' final) there was an expectation placed on him, after the Bayern tie in the quarter finals (with the through ball assist and goal after a dribble). There was genuine pressure/expectation to produce goals in this role and he did. He had the physique and skill to retain the ball in the final third, with Kaka and Inzaghi (or/and another striker) in front of him. One of Kaka's goals against Manchester United came that way. He was still not 'idle' in the defensive phase as you say, and people noticed him because of his production and because vs Manchester he was the Milan player with the most touches and passes of his team (maybe/possibly he was also sometimes as central midfielder before this - because he was that too at times after 2007). UEFA has a heatmap of the final game, and it shows all the Milan midfielders cramped together, but with him a notch more advanced than Gattuso, Pirlo and Ambrosini (but closer to them than to Kaka and Inzaghi, in this game at least). Then in 2010-11 - let's call this the 'post-Maldini' period - when Milan won the league (the last Juventus didn't win) he was the 2nd most frequent assister of his team and the fourth most frequent scorer in the league. WhoScored has him down as central midfielder (and nothing else), transfermarkt too (typically, for 27% of the matches they are unable to assign a position to him), though on the other hand DBScalcio has him as the 2nd best attacking midfielder of his league (missing the top mark by 0.01). The UEFA technical study of the 2010-11 Champions League says about AC Milan: • 4-3-3, or narrow 4-4-2 • Good technical quality; fast possession play • Attacking flair; individual qualities of Pato, Robinho and Ibrahimović • Quick counters whenever possible • Focus on central penetration, e.g. combos • Soloist finishing, long-range shooting/dribbling • Nesta the leader of the zonal back four (play offside) • Midfield pressing by working midfielders, e.g. Flamini • Seedorf a major influence anywhere in midfield • Width provided by overlapping full-backs For this 2010-11 season we can look at the average position as well, and it varied between #3 to #6 in position. Generally he was the 4th guy. https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/med...fachampionsleague/season=2011/md=2/index.html In this 'post-Maldini' period until 2012 - when he sometimes played with the armband - he had his goals and assists against Barcelona (in two different matches), Manchester United and Real Madrid. It goes too far to run down all these 2008 - 2012 matches, but one match sticks out for me in the memory and that is this one (alternative version, nice one!), with the winning assist. Here in this match he is simply the 4th guy of his team, and in the middle of the match even the 5th: Long story short: I don't quite agree with the idea he was the 'number 10' (though he was honored to play with this squad number for Real Madrid, Internazionale and Milan). Many would say Rui Costa or Kaka was this, or Baggio, Recoba, Raul, Mijatovic, Litmanen for his previous teams. What I do agree with is the nuance Tigana played even a notch deeper (everything considered) and was for the national team the 5th guy, and for club the 4th during the apex of his career. I also agree Seedorf had some of his most glorious moments in a significantly more attacking role than Tigana did (as the 3rd guy of his team), and that applies to his first Inter season as well for instance, as noted in the recent Zonal Marking book: "Like Parma, Inter struggled to create chances when playing 3-5-2, collecting only ten points from the nine matches before the opening of the January transfer window. They then completed a significant signing: Real Madrid's Clarence Seedorf. Although the Dutchman had spent the majority of his career in a deeper position, he was instantly deployed as a number 10, and transformed Inter. On his debut, Inter defeated Perugia 5-0. Seedorf assisted the first, then dribbled inside from the left flank, produced a stepover so mesmeric that it left Perugia defender Roberto Ripa on the ground, and lifted the ball into the corner. Three more Inter goals followed, and Seedorf was substituted to a standing ovation. His arrival, and the shift from 3-5-2 to 3-4-1-2, meant Inter collected 23 points from their next ten games." Then two years later, when Inter almost won the league (2001-02; losing it in the last match, which he missed) and he had a brace from open play against Juventus at the business end, it was again not obvious what his position was or his role. All in all, he is behind Xavi the central midfielder with the most ESM team of the month inclusions.
He was more #10 post 2007, that's all I said. Never said it never varied too, as shown in my (diminished) quote. But thanks for the complementary infos. 2010-2011 : Pato, Ibra, Robi are all forwards. Who liked to build things from deeper I know but amongst the midfielders then it's Seedorf. And these 3 did not always play together, could be only 2 as you said.
Yes I understood but I think (and I might be wrong) he reverted back to the default after 2007. Not entirely but 'transfermarkt' changes the designation back to 'central midfielder' instead of 'attacking midfielder' like in 2007. DBScalcio has him as central midfielder for 2006-07, I see now. For the 2002-03 he was the 4th most advanced I think (the final at least), and the 2003-04 league title too most of the time. That's more or less the default, if you can say that. See also this dissection and discussion. One of the things I looked at when re-thinking is what he did for tangible things when he won the CL in 2002-03 and Serie A in 2003-04. Goals and/or assists in close matches vs Bayern, Dortmund, Deportivo and Inter in the semi final (the decisive 1-1) for the 2003 Champions League. Goals and assists vs rivals Juventus and Inter on the way to the 2004 league championship (nominated for Ballon d'Or). I think it varied between 3rd to 6th (most of the times 4th). For example his very last Champions League game (2012 quarter vs Barcelona) has him as the 4th/5th most advanced (on level with Nocerino - very slightly behind to be precise). That's what UEFA shows. Against Arsenal a round earlier (4-0 win) the same thing. There is a difference here with Tigana (explaining the goals) but accounting for this, I see the aforementioned similarities too.
Given the quality of opponents (Cannavaro, Thuram, Sensini, Dino Baggio, etc.) I would argue this is one of Ronaldo's best (if not the best) dribbling performances in his Serie A tenure. The curling free kick past Buffon is excellent too.
Relentless https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/feb/22/cristiano-ronaldo-real-madrid-villarreal
An obvious one but Ilicic for Atalanta scored 4 goals against Valencia on Tuesday, including two penalties, one of which he won and one was a handball by a defender to stop him. Bizarre game with no fans in place made it feel a bit like a training session and in some ways that showed in the scoreline. Jan Oblak last night against Liverpool had 9 saves in an excellent display.
5 players received 6 étoiles FF during the 1994-1995 season of Division 1 : Christian Karembeu (FC Nantes) vs PSG, day #5. played in defense. 1-0. François Lemasson (AS Cannes) vs Lens, day #10. 2-0 away. GK. Ali Benarbia (FC Martigues) vs Caen, day #14. 4-1 (2 goals incl. 1 pen., dunno about assists, same for the following players) Kennet Andersson (SM Caen) vs Bordeaux, day #17. 3 goals, 4-2. Sonny Anderson (AS Monaco) vs Bordeaux, day #30. 4 goals, 6-3. Nantes-PSG can be seen in full on U-tub. The goal scored is legendary.
Carlos Valderrama with a perfect grade of a 10 from El Gráfico, in Colombia’s famous destruction of 5-0 over Argentina in Buenos Aires in the 1993 WC qualifiers.
My memory did serve me right, even after all these years I remember it like yesterday. Siboldi in goal saving everything until Romario sent Francescoli, Fonseca, Sosa and those boys packing back to Montevideo. El Gráfico
The games that come to mind: Pelé vs Benfica (Second match Intercontinental Cup 1962) Maradona vs England (Quarter finals World Cup 1986) Messi vs Manchester United (Final Champions League 2010-11) Zico vs Liverpool (Intercontinental Cup 1981) Ronaldo vs Lazio (Final UEFA Cup 1997-98) Cristiano vs Spain (Group stage World Cup 2018) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P08Bdq_3iJU Zidane vs Brazil (Quarter finals World Cup 2006) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNVO7ti_gfQ Ronaldinho vs Real Madrid (La Liga 2005-06) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fVdTikChA Beckenbauer vs URSS (Semi finals World Cup 1966) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-RurxRBw7U Cruyff vs Argentina (Second group stage World Cup 1974) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhGOTTagDBM Aguirre vs Estudiantes (Group stage Copa Libertadores 2010) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtBLzuze-c
I think this may have been alluded to previously but romarios ability as a 'one man army' is understated and frankly underrated by many. When one thinks about romario you think of a player with excellent technique in the box A great burst of speed over 20 yards,excellent trapping technique. You don't necessarily think of those dribbling runs Or his ability to create plays for others courtesy of his vision in reality Romario was( at least in his physical prime) as complete a centre forward as there has ever been Many things detract from his overall legacy which are correct in my opinion (he had some awful lows during his prime especially his 93/94 CL campaign,his 2nd barcelona season,short lived stint with Valencia and going back to brazil which wasnt at the level of la liga or serie A) But when we're talking about prime Meaning what he could put together on his best days he wasnt a lesser player then either one of van basten or R9 I dont see it at least not anymore I think technically he was of their class not less and not more The only one i could possibly put in that bracket is luis Suarez for Liverpool FC(specifically the first half of 13/14) He never reached this level again though. That is the difference between the elite and super elite footballers of all time
Not to be a party pooper, and the occasion was important, but Uruguay their Elo rank was #22 to #25 at the time. That's fairly low. It's comparable to Wales or Turkey now; and South Korea, Japan or Peru over the past 2010s decade. So I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this. Sweden in 2013 for the play-offs against Portugal was #11 to #16 for example. I said it in the past but I think Romario his highlight reels do him a favor. Those leave out the many 'irrational' touches and trappings that didn't pull off for him. For example the trap at 3:49 in your video. If it works it is nice for the showreel, but it is not the best choice clearly and wastes an opportunity at a useful place. For a 1990s team he is a sensible choice.
This is also one of the decent candidates for him, captaining his team to a win against his future team (2016-17 season): Nice piece of dribbling at 3:45. Also other skills in his last game against Liverpool at an advanced position (2017-18 season). I see now there is also another occasion where he won against Klopp's team (2015-16), or keeping a clean sheet with Liverpool #1 in the table (2016-17). Imho, the Liverpool player of the season still should have been between Mané and Van Dijk. Henderson was like many Liverpool players good, but in many of the bigger games (Man United, Man City, Atletico etc.) not better, or more decisive, than Fabinho or Wijnaldum. The (too) humble and self-deprecating Hyypia (January 2020):
Hope you are doing well in these difficult times, It pleases me to read your post overall. And I agree with most. In regards to his second year (which was more half a season) at Barca, it was more to do with him not putting his back into it after he already decided to leave Europe soon after WC94. He clearly had changed his priorities soon after WC94 success. And after falling out, Johan Cruyff lost confidence in Romario as well. Hagi became the center stage when Laudrup had left. Barca Dream team was practically over. Many left. And Romario signed Flamengo soon after WC94 ended. His low performance had to do with a lack of discipline and commitment to Barca rather than his performance on the pitch. Remember his great performances in the matches vs Man United UCL 94/95 was in this very second year at Barca, the second season you are referring to. And those matches showed that he was still at the top of his game. If he stayed at Barca and put his heart into it we would have seen many performances in line with vs ManUnited 94/95. Unfortunately, Europeans never forgave him for turning his back while at the top of his game, for a lesser league in Brasil. After 7 years in Europe, winning 3 Dutch league titles, 1 La Liga and countless top scorer titles, alongside a golden ball for winning WC94, he had nothing to prove anymore and his career in Europe looks very complete, to be honest. And don't forget back then in his era, a striker reaching age 30 was already considered past prime. So why stay when you know you are aging and have won almost everything already? Further, examples of his ability to create plays for others out of courtesy can easily be seen pre and post-peak period. Plenty of full match videos for all to see. During his peak, Romario had 14 assists in 93/94 La Liga while R9 (peak) had 10 in 96/97 La Liga. This alone contradicts the views of him being an in-the-box only type of player. And he was a great dribbler as well. There are plenty of examples showing him creating plays for others to score, and I can assure you they were more than apeak R9 did. For example, Barca vs Porto UCL 94, he did not score, but he was key in the lead up to the goals that won Barca the match. Both were pre-assists leading to goals. There are other UCL 93/94 matches I can refer to. But people only judge him by having scored only 2 goals. What about his other contributions?
Puck, the fact that he performed against an Elo 22-25 ranked side doesn't change anything when other legendary players in history have done the same against similar opponents. How many legendary performances of legendary players were against sides similar to Uruguay 93? It didn't detriment their legacy nor should it detriment what Romario did vs Uruguay 93 The fact is, Brasil faced great pressure against Uruguay 93 in the last qualifiers match for WC94. A loss would have disqualified Brazil for the first time in history to participate in a WC. He scored 2 goals, which the last one was a masterpiece, he was all over the place, which is unusual for him to run as much. He was a great player for his own era. This is cherry-picking, That minute 3:49 is nothing unusual. In fact, I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. How many times has R9 done something like that? Many a times. And you know this is true. I saw R9 hit the post when there was no goalie inside the goal and he could have passed the ball to another player (Romario) who stood practically inside the goal waiting for the pass. That was a waste of an opportunity. All strikers are shellfish at times. No need to punish Romario for minute 3:49 when he was clearly the clutch vs Uruguay that day. Every time Romario touched the ball Uruguay's defenders seem to have lost the plot.
I agree with the overall premise regarding R9 and his low assist totals Shearer for Blackburn rovers propelled his side to a premiership title scoring 34 goals and 16 assists https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...-shearer-gets-silver-his-goals-deserve-199495 This is a monster season even by modern day standards Strikers like lewandowski,aguero,cavani never touched this whilst playing on demonstrably higher scoring teams Or before RVN,batistuta,shevchenco,Raul As a provider R9 was in their bracket not some pseudo playmaker as he is now painted to be R9 was never not even once was a tier above other generational talents that featured in his generation Neither as a finisher or a playmaking forward Slightly better is arguable for sure But completely better....no Note Take this to a more suited thread or comme may start issuing warnings
It’s fairly understandable that point of view, but I look at that Uruguayan side and remember 3 top class players that were coming from relatively good seasons in Italian football: Sosa, Francescoli and Fonseca. These were some of the best attacking players in the world at the time and, even though they had struggled at the start of the qualifiers, they had picked it up by the time they met Brazil in a win or go home encounter. Brazil had an advantage, all they needed was a draw and they played at the real Maracaná, where Brazil never lost a qualifier. But for Romario to stand taller than all 3 of those Uruguayan stars put together, with a keeper at the peak of powers (Siboldi), it was quite an accomplishment. I think at that stage, Elo rank lower or not (Brazil was not number 1 either), for all the marbles at stake, Romario came up big while his opponents shrunk and came up empty. It ended virtually their NT careers, at least never did they get another real shot at a WC berth, when all 3 were still in their prime.
I agree this was a very accurate post. The gist of this post is to take historical matches in historical context. When we revision historical matches, in hindsight, the intricate details get often overlooked. Uruguay may have been ranked by Elo that low, but they had world-class players who were regarded as amongst the best at that time. Besides, having Brazil lost vs Bolivia earlier, qualifying on a "draw" was too risky and therefore unacceptable. Do not forget that this was Romario's first match in a year! After being dropped from the national team by Parreira a year earlier vs Germany for his antics. So the stakes were high, the writing was on the wall..either win or go home. 1. a pragmatic manager running a less creative team that the fans did not trust, 2. Bolivia's earlier defeat (their first qualifiers defeat in history) 3. the chance of disqualification if they lost the last match, 4. a maverick striker who has been on a long sabbatical due to a disciplinary If I was a manager, media pundit, bookmaker, or a fan witnessing this final WCQ match in 1993, I would have been a bit concerned and on edge, to say the least.
Yes, I sympathize with your views. Prior to 1993 Brazil basically cruised in qualifiers. It can be argued that it was the first time that they really had pressure against a seriously dangerous foe. I know the 1989 encounters with Chile were bloody, at a time when football was played by real men, where only the strong could survive. But Chile with all their talents, with Zamorano, Hugo Rubio and el Pato Yáñez, did not reach the world class standard of Uruguay’s trio. In previous generations, the likes of Didi, Rivelino, Tostao, Pelé, Socrates, Zico, etc, all avoided top guns in a high profile qualifier. In 1993 it was the first time that Brazil had been pitted in a group that consisted of a former world champion and a South American rival directly competing in a final game for all the marbles at stake. Elo rank high or low, under the context of the situation, with players’ NT careers on the line, all that ranking trivia goes out the window in my view. It put an end to some of those Uruguayan legends and their aspirations at a WC berth.
Was there another time post-93 where Brazil found themselves in a similar situation in WC qualifiers?