When does winning start to matter?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by NewDadaCoach, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Yeah but MLB has base coaches for this specific reason. Soccer is an entirely diff't animal.
     
  2. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Once again, base coaches are OFFENSIVE coaches. Everything I just gave examples of would be DEFENSIVE tasks.
     
  3. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    There is a huge difference between parents yelling and the player listening and acting.

    Nobody can prevent people from yelling, they should prevent them but they often don’t...the operative point is players being dependent upon such instruction.

    While baseball coaches and parent may yell “turn two”...the players have already communicated that amongst themselves prior to the pitch and they are all aware of who is covering second on a ball hit in the infield. The people may yell, but if the player was waiting for that instruction to cover second then they will be lucky to get one out, much less two.

    From a soccer perspective this would be potentially similar to defending a corner. There is an awareness of who has the post, tall players on tall players or possibly area coverage. Coaches can yell “watch the short corner” but once the ball is played there is no amount of yelling that is heard or responded to.

    I was under the impression we were talking about players receiving instruction during a game, not parents yelling “shoot” etc.

    If a player is dependent upon a coach to know when to switch fields, when to play it back or when to mark somebody then I would suggest that is not a good way to develop a player.

    I tend to be a live and let live person, if people want to yell instructions to their kid I guess that is their right as a parent. I’ll offer my opinion in my spare time but far be it from me to suggest there is only one way to develop a player.
     
  4. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    The whole thing about yelling at players was a question I asked... at what other sport is it frowned upon for coaches (and parents) to yell instructions at the kids? I offer that yelling "shoot" at a soccer player is no different than yelling "turn two" at the shortstop while he's waiting to field the ground ball with a runner on first.

    According to you, the baseball players already know what they're doing regardless of the instructions being yelled at them. I'd say that's true. So don't soccer players? I've never advocated for being a "joystick" coach or parent. But saying "don't yell because you'll mess up their development" is not only not true, it's unrealistic. How many kids have gone through sports with parents and coaches yelling at them?

    We're getting ready to enter March Madness. Watch some of the games... watch how many of these coaches are yelling at the players, in the middle of tens of thousands of screaming fans, telling them exactly what to do. Where's the outrage there?
     
  5. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    A vast amount of words could be spent delineating the differences between youth soccer and college basketball.

    And they would be wasted in this case so I shall resist the temptation.

    If you think yelling instructions to players helps them then have at it.
     
  6. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Yelling at players is mindless, pointless and largely ignored by players, if even actually heard…It may started out as coaching, but since most of this yelling consists of very fundamental and basic ideas, like shoot or turn two…they quickly lose their usefulness… unfortunately, that doesn’t stop parents from continuing to yell them out for next 10 years…

    Coaching is directed and is expected to be heard and acted upon; players are actively listening to be told what to do…that might be fine at a very early age, but beyond the first couple years of U-little rec, having players actively listing to be told what to do in the heat of the moment, is not what you want nor good development….
     
    Cantona's Eyebrow repped this.
  7. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    I think you are both missing my point, or maybe I'm not articulating it well.

    Why, in other sports, is it not only accepted but expected that coaches & parents yell instructions at the players (I'm not even going to say "kids" because it happens at the pro levels too), but yelling "shoot" in the heat of the moment during soccer game will turn the player into a quivering puddle that will never learn what to do?

    If you're going to use the argument that a basketball court is smaller (which is true), then my question is "how close does the player need to be before you can yell"?

    And it's not just parents. How often have we talked about coaches yelling at players during matches and whether they should or not?
     
  8. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Do the parents yell "incorrect" instructions in the other sports?

    I grew up playing baseball, and if I'm a SS with a guy on 1st and the ball comes to me, the coach and all my team's parents yelling "turn 2" isn't wrong.

    I could maybe see runners on the corners, some parents yelling for the throw home, some yelling turn 2 but the coach should have made his wishes known before the batter stepped in the box.

    I never played organized basketball or watched at a low level, but do parents call for kids to be launching 3s from their own half?

    While with soccer, "send it/boot it" is rarely ever the right call, but parents love the "big kick".
     
  9. jvgnj

    jvgnj Member

    Apr 22, 2015
    I see it as 2 separate issues, parents yelling instructions and coaches yelling instructions. Coaching from the sidelines by parents is generally discouraged in those other sports as well to prevent the kids from getting contradictory information. In your baseball example, parents shouldn't be yelling "throw home!!!" when they don't know what the coach, who is the one to make these decisions, has instructed them to do. It does come up in basketball as well. You'll have a parent yell "Who's guarding #24?!" when the team is playing zone. In my experience, coaches in both of these sports cover this in their parent meeting. Doesn't mean everyone listens.

    The other issue is how much instruction the coach should give during play. I think this will depend partly on the sport but also partly on the coach's personality, age of the players, etc. No one wants to see the coach trying to dictate every play ("pass it to Joey!") but standing there silently with your arms folded has its downsides, too. There are plenty of reasonable places to land between those extremes.
     
    CoachP365 repped this.
  10. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #60 mwulf67, Mar 3, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
    If by yelling instructions you mean setting plays, changing formations or pointing out general tactical ideas, I would agree… some sports lean themselves to such instructions far more than others…I would tend to think soccer is on the lower end of that scale with basketball being much higher up…it’s not about “instructions” being good or bad, it’s about how effective they are…a basketball coach would literately call a specific play with every possession, and have the play run routinely and exactly as drawn up, and change his defense from zone to man with a single word, and back again, all on the fly…none of that is reasonable or possible in soccer…

    Yelling shoot is not a reasonable nor effective instruction… look at this way, which is better, a player who waits/needs to be told to shoot, or a player who knows when to, and equally important, not to…it it’s the latter, which I think we all agree…then why bother to yell anything in the first place? At best, it’s just being ignored; really just about the parent/coach mistakenly and delusionally “feeling” part of the game; at worst its causing hesitation, indecision or poor decision making…that doesn’t mean a coach couldn’t yell out the instruction, during a break in the action, to the effect of “we need to take more shots on goal”…that would seem legit…screaming out shoot, shoot when they are working the ball around the box, is just mindless noise…
     
  11. pu.ma

    pu.ma Member

    Feb 8, 2018
    What a spectator sees is often not what a player sees. In soccer, when you yell shoot or pass from the sidelines, it's from your perspective. It may very well be that the pass will be intercepted or the shot is into shins if attempted. I think the older players tend to tune it out, but younger players, definitely can be affected and that could lead to players developing poor decision making.

    In a sport like baseball, it's different because you dont have opposing team players trying to take the ball away from you.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  12. FakeFlopper

    FakeFlopper Member

    Jul 21, 2005
    Austin, Tx
    It's so weird, I started coming to these threads in my early 20's and now I have kids that play, so it's interesting to real parental thoughts. Ultimately, I don't care if my kids lose a game as long as I see them improving and playing the actual game and not being the fastest kid that can toe punch a ball into the goal. My daughter's almost 10 now, and I think she decided when it started to matter around 8/9. They lost a tournament that they didn't really belong in, and her team was upset and crying at the end. That's when I knew that it started to matter, and we had the talk and made sure we had set expectations to improve. It's sports, the point is the compete and win; however,I still am not too bothered by a 5-6 game loss where the girl in goal is barely trying cause they still don't have a keeper, but I do care more when we lose to a team that we are clearly more talented than. We still arrange players into different positions, but I do get bothered when the coach switches up the line up so much we blow huge leads and lose complete momentum.
     
    NewDadaCoach and bigredfutbol repped this.
  13. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Is it wrong that I only care how my kid plays and dont care if they win or lose at this point? U12G btw
     
    NewDadaCoach and bigredfutbol repped this.
  14. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That may very well be the healthier approach. :)
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  15. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Let's be honest, every parent feels that way but not all will say it. U can't tell me you'd be "happy for the team" if they won state cup and your kid either didnt play or got benched for playing terribly. I think its like that in pro sports too. A benchwarmer cant possibly get the same level of satisfaction for winning a big game as the star player does.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  16. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    And to answer the original question winning should start mattering in High School.
     
  17. SuperHyperVenom

    Jan 7, 2019
    Better to be on a team that the coach and team are focused on playing correctly and trying to score in a variety of ways - through the middle, up the sides, long ball to striker.

    In perfect world a defender shouldn't be on a team that smashes everyone (no challenge) and a midfielder shouldn't be on a team that only does long balls.

    When should winning matter? 15 or 16 maybe. Winning a tournament? 12 or 13
     
  18. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    If I were talking with a parent 1-1, I would ask them to define “matter” in their eyes.

    If they want to win for the sake of being victorious, trophies etc. then it a short conversation.

    If they want to see wins as a demonstration that the team their player is on is developing and their player is both a part of the success and learning how to win then I would have a different answer.

    Winning is not bad and few kids will look back and say losing was the best part of playing.

    Also, a team that is losing consistently can carry a whole lot of negativity towards the coach, players etc.

    So, winning doesn’t matter in any one game but wins probably matter to a degree. If wins can help measure progress in some way, build some confidence and keep a team striving to improve then wins can be important even if winning isn’t. I guess I would say that is true at most ages but agree it changes as the players mature and understand more about winning and losing.
     
    CoachP365 and ytrs repped this.
  19. SuperHyperVenom

    Jan 7, 2019
    I was thinking more along the lines that learning how to play the game properly should be the goal over "winning" when younger. Learning how to get out of tough situations instead of just booting it to the fast kid up front. Which may mean losing. Learning proper shooting technique and shot placement because anybody can score on a U14 keeper.

    Another parent once told me that one of his kid's tennis coach wouldn't let their kid compete in tournaments until he was sure that the kid wouldn't sacrifice technique in order to win a shot/game. Sort of like trust the process. The coach held him back for almost a year.
     
    CoachP365 repped this.

Share This Page