MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    How did you determine their values?[/QUOTE]


    Without addressing relative quality of the players, I think it is important to point out that an examination of the young players does not indicate that the best young players are currently 21/22 and older. The group of young players that seems to have the mosy potential in MLS are those players born in 2000 and earlier. There are many things that go into the development equation. To say that Liga Mx does a better job of developing young players may or may not be correct but it certainly is an oversimplification.

    I know it is far from a perfect measure but last year, for 1998 and younger birth years, only 2 of the top ten and 5 of the top 20 players (by minutes played) were 1998's, 2/10 and 5/20 were 99's, 4/10 and 7/20 were 2000's. the rest were made up of 01's and 02's. Does this mean that MLS does a better job of developing 2000's than 1998's? perhaps, but perhaps the talent level of the raw material is better as well.

    One more thing....I have no idea, so I am asking: Does Mexico have a significant number of young (18ish) players heading overseas to places like Germany after playing 1 year or less in Liga Mx (Like a few of the US youth players)?
     



  2. One more thing....I have no idea, so I am asking: Does Mexico have a significant number of young (18ish) players heading overseas to places like Germany after playing 1 year or less in Liga Mx (Like a few of the US youth players)?[/QUOTE]
    Hardly, as they're paid too much to leave the comfort zone.
     
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  3. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Hardly, as they're paid too much to leave the comfort zone.[/QUOTE]

    So Mexican players are valued more in Mexico than in Europe? Do they have the same league structure as MLS?
     
  4. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Hardly, as they're paid too much to leave the comfort zone.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks,
    that further complicates comparison because at least some of those top valued players would likely be in Europe at the moment instead of Liga Mex.
     
  5. #3180 feyenoordsoccerfan, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
    So Mexican players are valued more in Mexico than in Europe? Do they have the same league structure as MLS?[/QUOTE]
    The question was about youngish players around 18yo.
    And I mentioned the comfort zone. There are players good enough to play at a serious level in Europe and then being paid more, but arenot willing to put in the efforts to meet professional demands of Euro clubs.
     
  6. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    The question was about youngish players around 18yo.
    And I mentioned the comfort zone. There are players good enough to play at a serious level in Europe and then being paid more, but arenot willing to put in the efforts to meet professional demands of Euro clubs.[/QUOTE]

    I know. I think some were arguing that the MLS structure creates this over valuing of young Americans that keeps them “stuck” in MLS. It was nice that you pointed out that it happens in MX too.
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Another YA stating the obvious that MLS fans want to ignore...

    https://www.onegoal.us/articles/202...-steffen?format=amp&__twitter_impression=true

    OneGoal: What do you think is one thing that surprised you the most between the differences between MLS and the Bundesliga?

    Zack Steffen: I'm not sure if I've been surprised. I mean, in terms of differences, the speed of some of these players, the speed of play, and the speed of the ball sometimes. That's definitely one thing here: some of the forwards and midfielders in this league, they can shoot the ball from very tricky situations and can most of the time put it exactly where they want the ball to go. So, you definitely see more goals and more saves over here than you do in the MLS.

    OneGoal: What do you think about the pathway to Europe from the US that so many young American talents - sometimes directly out of development academies - are taking? Is that the right way to go?

    Zack Steffen: I don’t think there is necessarily one right way to go. Everybody has their own path. But I would just say, the European leagues over here, the quality and speed of play here are very high, so you are going to get better over here.
     
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  8. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Post that Steffen quote in the MLS forum and watch the outrage ensue.

    Hint: no one would care.
     
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  9. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    So what’s so controversial here that MLS fans can’t handle? European soccer has always been played at a faster pace than S. American, N.American, and other leagues.
     
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  10. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I know. I think some were arguing that the MLS structure creates this over valuing of young Americans that keeps them “stuck” in MLS. It was nice that you pointed out that it happens in MX too.[/QUOTE]

    Shrug. Its not even about overvaluing or undervaluing.

    LIke Liga MX, MLS clubs have the money to pay their best young players to stay.
    Clubs/Leagues in South America sell players as a primary platform of their "business model." Its how they stay financially viable. Liga MX and MLS clubs don't need to do that. In fact, MLS is a buying league as we've seen recently. They're buying these players from South America. There were a couple of transfer windows in a row in which MLS clubs outspent Serie A. Folks understand this I hope.......................

    So FCD can pay Paxton Pomykal, Jesus Ferreira, etc. to stay. It sounds like they're negotiating with Reggie Cannon right now on a new contract, so we'll see.

    THis may sound crazy, but money makes the world go round. Do people think players all of a sudden had a deep, heartfelt desire to play in the Chinese Super League. Of course not. Money brought them there.

    So MLS clubs will of course sell their players. But they're not going to give them away. Clubs need to be the going rate. When I lived in Dallas, an FCD front office type told me they received transfer offers all the time for their young players. But they were always lowball offers that couldn't conceivably be taken seriously.
     
  11. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    #3186 TxEx, Feb 25, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020

    I think we're arguing different things. Cannon isn't trapped here if his agent does his job. Neither is Pax, or Dotson, or Trusty.

    My point is that while MLS is certainly not perfect it's trending in the right direction and the overall pool of young American players is not only increasing in quality but in quantity as well because none of this list includes the dozens of teenagers who have gone to Europe, which seems to be our advantage over Mexico going forward .
     
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  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont see anything controversial about. if everyone agrees that quality of play is better and it is a better environment to develop, why is there such resistance to people encouraging players to go abroad?
     
  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I responded to this comment "please go on and tell me all of the star teenagers getting big minutes in that league". The list of 16 Liga MX players include 14 that are more valuable than the two highest in MLS. That league appears to be doing something much better with players in that age range.

    It may be trending in the right direction, but is it doing so anywhere near as quickly as it could and will it actually ever get to where it needs to be. i dont have much confidence in them as most of the changes they have made recently are reactionary.
     
  14. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Yeah but you didn't list a ton of guys getting minutes in MLS like Dotson, Toye, Parks, etc. And only one on your list is an actual teenager still. They're all 20-23. A list of young Americans that age getting minutes in MLS is twice as long and will continue to outpace LigaMX as expansion happens, our young player pool grows, and fellow teenagers so they can handle the minutes encouraging managers to give them those chances.

    For whatever reason TM gives Americans lower value than guys in LigaMX. I don't watch that league so I can't say all of those guys are better than all of our guys in MLS. But TM valuations have biases and I'm willing to bet over the next three seasons MLS will sell more players to Europe than LigaMX.

    The sheer numbers in expansion of young players getting minutes in MLS is going to make that a reality. Especially as more Americans succeed abroad, the ones here will get more benefit of the doubt and payments/valuations will increase.
     
  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This how I created the list...

    I looked up top 100 valued players who were 22 yo or younger in Liga MX and MLS.

    The players you listed would be valued lower. There may be biases, but it doesnt come close to explain why there are so many Liga MX players valued much higher. Most of the list is 21 and 22 year olds. MLS may get better at it, but Liga MX did much better with the talent over the last 3 to 4 years.

    Your opinion about foreign teams raising their valuations of MLS is very speculative and think it is going to take MLS players to be sold at current valuations to show their worth. There are many players from other countries that have a proven track record.
     
  16. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Encourage? Players should play where they want to play.

    Playing fast doesn’t mean better. Over the years of my life I’ve watched Brazil completely lose its identity and dominance of world soccer. Many Brazilians feel because all their top players play in Europe now, they’ve lost their style and are just another Euro like team now. When I was growing up, there was always talk about what the US style would be. I still feel we as a nation have no idea. It’s been interesting to watch Mexico go to WC after WC and win groups against fast playing Euro sides with players from their MX league. It would be great to see a coach who could merge the slower playing players from MLS with the players from Europe into a style of play that could give Euro countries fits.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Haha... this is great. Instead of making sure you understand what Steffen is saying and accepting it, you have chosen to create an odd debate about one piece of it. Not even sure what that argument is. Let's try again...

    OneGoal: What do you think about the pathway to Europe from the US that so many young American talents - sometimes directly out of development academies - are taking? Is that the right way to go?

    Zack Steffen: I don’t think there is necessarily one right way to go. Everybody has their own path. But I would just say, the European leagues over here, the quality and speed of play here are very high, so you are going to get better over here.


    Steffen is polite, but that last sentence is the crux of his statement. The quality and speed of play are very high!!! It is clear that he thinks it is better for his development and others.

    Different players are driven by different things. The young kids who are going abroad as soon as possible seem to be driven by wanting to be the best they can be. They are putting themselves in environments that they believe will help them best achieve their potential. If players are driven things then they should choose accordingly. Your simplistic view seems to not want to make clear the advantages of going abroad to certain programs. My "encouragement" is simple.... if the player wants to be the best they can be, they challenge themselves the best in situations that are geared to help them improve.

    I suspect we will see this play out in the next couple of years. Players like Reyna. Ledezma, etc are going to adapt to the international level quicker than their MLS counterparts. Again, the reason is simple.... they are used to playing at similar level and speed of play to the international level. I suspect some of the MLS players who were over hyped will struggle like many players have for the last 25 years.
     
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  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    what’s your confidence that the $30m guarantee let’s paid to USSF by SUM?
     
  19. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    This did not come from a publicly disclosed document or even discovery in one of the lawsuits so all I know is what Garber and Gulati have said. Right now there’s even more uncertainty because we don’t know if that is a simple guarantee or if it’s conditioned on a certain number of games being broadcast or if there is an act of god clause.
     
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That happens in England too. Domestic players are over-compensated and end up sitting on the bench rather starting in one of the other top Euro leagues.

    Sancho is a bit of a latter day trail blazer.

    Back in the day it used to be common for top British talent to go overseas in their prime, see Charles, Greaves, Keegan, Lineker and Gascoigne.

    Wow! The top leagues in Europe, featuring the best players in the world, some of whom are earning more than entire MLS rosters, are more demanding than MLS. Who would have thought it?

    Next they'll be telling me that the quality and speed of play in NFL is higher than NCAA!
    From the audited 2019 USSF annual consolidated financial reports.

    NOTE 3 - SPONSORSHIP AGREEMENTS
    Soccer United Marketing (SUM)
    USSF entered into a marketing representation agreement with SUM, which is effective through December
    31, 2022. In accordance with this agreement, USSF receives annual, guaranteed cash compensation that
    is recognized evenly over the calendar year to which the compensation relates. Under the agreement, third-
    party sponsorship, television, and licensing revenues from certain categories (for example, excluding those
    received from Nike) are paid to SUM, and SUM pays USSF annual guaranteed compensation. After certain
    revenue limits are reached, additional funding above the annual guarantee can be realized based on
    revenue sharing provisions within the agreement. USSF recognizes revenue earned under this agreement
    net based on amounts received from SUM.
    Revenue under the agreement approximated $28,500,000 and $27,250,000 for the years ended March 31,
    2019 and 2018, respectively. USSF was due receivables of $348,334 and $419,710 from SUM at March
    31, 2019 and 2018, respectively.
    Nike
    USSF entered into a sponsorship and license agreement with Nike, which is effective through December
    31, 2022. In accordance with this agreement, Nike pays USSF cash compensation including annual base
    compensation, minimum royalty guarantee payments, and discretionary funds. The agreement also
    provides for annual product supply allowances for the national teams' players, coaches, and staff members
    and other USSF programs such as the Development Academy. Additionally, the agreement provides for
    performance bonuses based on the USMNT and USWNT performance at various competitions.
    For the year ended March 31, 2019, revenue under the agreement approximated $22,531,000, which
    includes $16,000,000 of base compensation, $3,531,000 of equipment, and $3,000,000 of merchandise
    royalties. For the year ended March 31, 2018, revenue under the agreement approximated $24,624,000,
    which includes $16,000,000 of base compensation, $3,413,000 of equipment, and $5,211,000 of
    merchandise royalties.
     
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  21. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    I think if fans here would just accept that fact, it would never be brought up in arguments like this.

    A poster above just said players "should play where they want to play", insinuating the drive to play in Europe (and play against the best players) isn't that important. Unless he's just saying people should be in a situation where they are happiest, which is of course true in every profession, but we're talking about how to make the USNT the best possible group of talent.

    Other threads here say to ignore leagues, ignore where a player is playing, and simply look at their performance in a US shirt (implying Zusi's assists at the WC make him the player we should be striving to find).

    I agree with you, there is nothing illuminating about that quote from Steffen, and it shouldn't even be an argument. But for some reason, it is here.

    The NCAA/NBA theme has also been brought up, and the way some MLS (super)fans make it seem, a player should be able to stay in the NCAA if he's happiest there, and as long as his development continues, he can still become a top player even consistently playing against lesser skilled opponents.

    Edit - MLS Superfans, since it sounded like I think MLS fan is a pejorative, but I am one.
     
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  22. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Speed of play a universal issue that everyone has to get over when they move up a level . The ncaa is a great example. The best ncaa players are good pros right from the start, especially with good coaching.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Certain NCAA players can step up but it's not the best producing or the ones who look best in an "eye test" vs. NCAA competition.

    Very few people try to compare players using minor and major league stats like certain posters do here (some AA baseball player is hitting .300 so he must be better than the MLB player hitting .260.......)

    The percentage of players who can step up from minor to major is pretty low. Even in NCAA high level baseketball (those playing in leagues eligible for the tournament), it's probably mid single digit percentage who even has a shot at making NBA.
     
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  24. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Steffen left Europe for MLS. He subsequently improved enough to win Goalkeeper of the Year. He then left MLS to walk into the starting lineup of a B1 club. Less than a season later, Manchester City state they want to make him their second keeper.

    Seems the first sentence is key.
     
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  25. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Don't mind this at all, and Steffen's route seemed to work out pretty well. Only difference I see is that he had a bit more flexibility as a goalie. Don't think a field player who had already returned to MLS, and was already 23 or whatever, would draw the same level of interest...

    Guess that's why there is so much discussion here, then, about how easy/hard it is for young MLS field players to make the jump.
     
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