Robben and Ribery for me....although I really would have liked seeing Ribery play in either England, Spain or Italy.
I agree, very underrated. A class winger and playmaker, regularly delivers in the big games (at club level).
Exactly. An assist machine really, technically very sound and so so many big games that he has left his mark on but rarely gets a mention.
In what way? I think he is correctly rated by progressive football fans Severely underrated by traditionalists He has the trophies(collective titles and individual ones) 3× bundesliga MVP 3rd highest ranked outfield player in 2014 Top CL assists in 13/14 MOTM champions league final 2013 Was the catalyst behind the demolition of both the greatest club side ever(2012/13 Barcelona) And the greatest international team ever(Spain 2014 holders of the world cup) Destroying two of the highest ranked defenders of his era during the process(ramos and pique) I think you would find there arent more then 5 classical or inverted wingers who achieved everything that he has(in a injury ravaged career) I think he is the same class as Luis figo/rivaldo/ronaldinho/thierry Henry As top 40-70 of all time(history) In 2014/15 (the 20 or so matches he was fit)was close to Cristiano ronaldo I dont say identical but close https://www.football365.com/news/a-fit-robben-is-worlds-third-best
Rest of the world: Koulibaly. One of the best defenders in the world for half a decade (imho). Take him out and Napoli doesn't challenge. Strong defender, half decent footballer. Brazil: Casemiro, Firmino. Lucas Leiva even. Somehow it are always their 'brainless' players that get highly rated. Argentina: Di Maria yes. Not the smartest player but probably undone by his Man United flop and then being reduced to a serviceable player at PSG. Germany: Marco Reus. Named after another Marco by his parents, same injury issues. At the wrong moments. Technique has improved over time. I rate him overall higher than someone like Ozil. Italy: possibly Verratti. On the other hand, he still makes the same dumb mistakes as when he was 20. One of the few PSG players who tend to show up in crucial CL matches, less so in the league. Overall still underrated compared to the match ratings he regularly gets. Portugal: Moutinho, Pepe maybe. Moutinho has been a (very) good player for about 15 years or so (starter for UEFA Cup finalist in 2005), with good technique and can tackle. Not the most mobile athlete. Made a brief search and my thoughts are backed up. Moutinho is a good call for the overall winner. Underrated piece within the 2016 success (yes, not the hardest route, but still) and Monaco winning the league in 2017. One of the best to never be in the ESM team of the month (my opinion). High GI rating at his peak. Netherlands: Wijnaldum without doubt. Regularly not noticeable but a very smart and polyvalent player and executes what his coaches want. Steps it up for bigger matches and can play with more risk. Scorer in multiple CL semi finals, the 3rd place match in 2014, only midfielder to score 4 non-penalty goals in a single EPL match, the necessary goal to qualify Liverpool for CL in 2017, first midfielder since Neeskens to score a hat-trick for the national team. Less sure about the rest. For Belgium maybe Witsel, Dembele, Nainggolan. Perhaps even Haaland considering his low transfer fees so far (also Molde and Salzburg bought him quite cheap, and Dortmund can buy three Haalands for one Vinicius).
@carlito86 I think perhaps Robben is underrated in the sense that every one (media/pundits) goes with the "one trick pony" narrative and it is constantly repeated. In reality, Robben was so dangerous because there was also the threat that he could go on the outside and deliver crosses with his right, he also used Lahm's overlaps to great effect, was great playing through the centre and had a good run (ESM TotY worthy) playing on the left. In 2013 and 2014, at least one of the two he could have been in the Ballon D'or podium too, yet that snub wasn't even discussed.
Good shout on Joao Moutinho. Brilliant in 2012 and 2016 for Portugal, also really sad how he never gets even a honourable mention for his part in the 2-3 win vs Sweden. Pepe too for that matter.
The 2013 wasn't too strong IMO(his claim To the 3 man shortlist) There were just way too many forwards with outstanding numbers He was also probably a piece in the cog rather then a catalyst behind the 12/13 bayern Munich side (even though he was arguably alongside Muller the most important player in the closing stages) 2013/14 was epic for robben Legendary He had a run in the 2014 calender year that was totally incredible at all levels from world cup to the Dfb pokal His snub in favour of neur was questionable to put it lightly He is as i say correctly(objectively)rated by fans of a certain age category as one of the all time WFs Others (traditionalists) would have you believe he is inferior to KHR,resenbrink etc If you was to do a poll here robben wouldn't make top 100 all time I have no doubt about this But Ibrahimovic does(7 KO goals) Suarez does(4 years with no away champions league goal-unprecedented stuff) Totti does(Never made it beyond a CL QF) How? Robben the midfielder/WF scored more champions league KO goals as ibrahimovic+Suarez combined Please let that sink in
He was out injured for the 1st half of 12/13 but when he came back in the New Year through to the end of the year he was really good. Had a brilliant start to 13/14 season too which should have helped. The calendar year 2013 was brilliant and had the decisive moments that ordinarily fans and voters like.
It is Neymar. Even unfit coming from a rib injury and making a bad match for his levels he generates 1.1 npxG + 0.4xA in the away match vs Dortmund. https://fbref.com/en/matches/f778e3...int-Germain-February-18-2020-Champions-League He missing the CL in the last seasons (or unfit or injured most of the time), he playing a secundary role (bad, bad decision for his legacy) while 21-25 yo and suffering injuries or playing unfit the WC2014 and 2018 makes him underrated compared with his real level. His football IQ is totally underrated also, people (or haters or even anti-BR haters) just remember his showboating, but actually he knows how to make offensive plays, involving his teammates, and reaching good passing and goalscoring position, that is the bigger reason that he is very close to Messi in the plus minus method in his Europe carrer. He is also underrated because of his party-lifestyle (in contrast to the Cristiano and Messi monk style, clearly outliers of a forwards) and his 'antics'/diving, actually his dives saved him from many more injuries. Neymar as a focal point of one Bayern Munchen would make better numbers (and suffer less injuries) than in his PSG carrer so far. Underrated: Ribery (if compared to Robben). Underrated: Higuain, Kroos, Van Persie, Thomas Muller, Benzema even, Thiago Alcantara. Overrated: Hazard (bad decision making, ball hog, 4 non-PK Goals in all his CL carrer). Marcelo, Firmino and Dani Alves are overrated if you analyse only their NT performances. I am thinking Alisson, Casemiro and Neymar are the most consistent performers in the Brazil NT. Di Maria levels is actually close to Ziyech levels nowadays, a solid good player, for me had arguably a better WC than Messi back 2014, that was my impression at that moment.. a good and creative passer he is, not so consistent tho.
I suppose this depends on who you ask and where you look. Ranging from "one of the best investments in club history" to "best player of the decade" to much lower assessments by British lists. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-...rum/10/thread_id/1929034?from=lesenswerte_box https://www.abendzeitung-muenchen.d...war.04d8ee47-04cc-498a-80de-67dac2b925f7.html https://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussba...ern-muenchen-der-stolze-solist-a-1267534.html https://m.sportbild.bild.de/bundesl...-zum-siegen-braucht-48546190.sportMobile.html https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/fc-bayern-robben-abschied-1.4237411 https://11freunde.de/artikel/tot-ziens-arjen/558721 "The Robben off the court generally has little to do with the Robben on the court. In front of microphones, Robben is considered, cool-headed, admonishing, almost always very friendly." https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/champions-league-fc-bayern-robben-1.4230173-2 British lists like Daily Mail, The Independent and FourFourTwo certainly have him not particularly high. Daily Mail had him as 20th for the last decade, the Independent on place 30 for this century and FourFourTwo at 44th since 1994 (the NED revision at place 22). Then there is also @comme who placed him below David Silva and outside the top 10, and sees not a single Holland player as an option for the XI for the 90s, 00s and 10s (traditionally a low opinion of our football?). At other places he is rated high, not the least the country he played for. In his own country he is generally seen as the 'greatest' player since Bergkamp (with the injuries eventually adding to his standing and respect), an attacker you see once in 10-15-20 years, although sometimes things get maligned such as the recurring claim his penalty miss vs Dortmund cost the championship (not true) and him being maligned as a one trick pony. He is rated higher than other world class players who came in between with multiple topscorer titles, man of the match performances in a CL final, or with more big trophies than him (he played three CL finals, played well in basically all of them, but others played more or won more as a starter; he's involved in 9 CL semi finals in his career though and with KO stage input obviously). Many also see him as the best player that is not associated with Amsterdam and/or Ajax. (with subtitles) "July 5, 2014. Arjen Robben stands amidst his teammates in the Itaipava Arena Fonte Nova in Salvador, Brazil. The veins in his neck are swollen. “Stay sharp, win duels. In the front, that's where we finish that competition. Do not make unnecessary mistakes in the back. Remain level headed. They are exhausted." The Orange meets Costa Rica in the quarterfinals of the world championship and is preparing for the extension. Right next to Robben, national coach Louis van Gaal is listening attentively, on the left the actual captain Robin van Persie does the same in silence. In Brazil, Robben visibly sets himself up as the technical leader of the Dutch national team. Van Persie wears the band, flies beautifully to the 1-1 against Spain, but is overwhelmed by an unleashed Robben. The Bedumer - later called by many the best player of the tournament - leads the Orange with its characteristic attack game to third place. Besides the field, Robben looks relaxed and takes extensive time for the press and supporters." https://www.hpdetijd.nl/2015-09-03/...rder-haalt-oranje-het-ek-dat-kan-niet-anders/ Video: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x64jqk3 Most of the times he is also rated a class higher than Ribery - by the British lists too - based on his tournament displays (national team and Champions League) and also his better goals+assists and performance record vs nearest challenger Dortmund (from 2010 onward). Despite his injuries, or rather because of it, he is in his own country generally seen as the best since Bergkamp although to be fair there are of course widely diverging and often strong (but substantiated) opinions. The 'consensus' is often more like a compromise between all positions rather than something people agree with.
Can I check where I said this? I don't necessarily think I would include any Dutch players in an XI for any of those decades but intrigued as to where I said that.
I second Koulibaly name. The man has been an absolute beast for a number of years. Marco Reus is a good shout as well. Arguably the best/most talented German of his generation, but injuries robbed him of his chance at glory. I think Aubameyang is another good candidate, as his goal record has been made to look mundane when he has been absolutely consistent despite playing in dysfunctional teams at time. Cesc Fabregas as well has been a bit forgotten. People forget that he used to dominate the chance creation chart among European top 5 league, playing/leading the austerity-era Arsenal. Speaking of Radja, De Rossi is also arguably underrated. Roma doesn't win a lot, but he has been immense for them for many years.
Can't find the 90s but this is the 00s https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/world-team-of-the-decade.1110568/ (later on you add Ballack; there is also a vote count, some other links, and that's how I found it) Only one gets mentioned, Van Nistelrooij (ranked top 15 in the world by FFT in 2009), among the honorable mentions. Someone who is hard to completely ignore entirely among the first 33 names for a decade. https://www.si.com/more-sports/2010/12/30/realmadrid-alltimexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_van_Nistelrooy#Honours Contrast this with a number of Englishman in there, or other countries. Hence a traditionally low opinion of our football/footballers, while teaming up with the likes of Lukas Tank and other (mostly german, spanish) big nation folks, with likewise historiography. For the last 30 years at least. Admittedly, e.g. ESM has selected quite a lot relative to population (only rivalled by Spain here, maybe Uruguay) but none of them is standing out there either. None is a real outlier (although Seedorf has relatively many inclusions for a central midfielder, 2nd most behind Xavi in effect; VdS 2nd most inclusions behind Buffon and this excludes the 94/95 season obviously).
Well if you go back to my best players of the 90s I had Dennis Bergkamp second in terms of overall stars. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-players-of-the-late-1990s.2039622/#post-35243538 For the combined 80s and 90s I had 5 Dutchmen in my top 10.
Worth noting as well that despite my apparent regular collaboration with various German outlets, I didn't have a single German in my original list either for the decade, despite them reaching a WC and Euro final and two WC semi-finals.
Okay, fair enough. My mistake and things can be incomplete. I don't think there have been too obvious locks like for the 70s or 80s since (the Rijkaard generation; which has about three obvious locks and maybe even four for the mid 80s to mid 90s era), but some very good ones since, sensible options, and yes also couple solid options for the 00s (not just RvN). Bergkamp his path to an XI might be blocked by Baggio, so not an automatic lock. Interesting would be to think about causes of the 'decline' in generational player quality and maybe that also applies to Germany, England (and more recently Italy - the last 15 years) to a certain extent and in different ways. Current France (with all their world class players like Griezmann and Mbappe) is in ESM not remotely rated as high as their Zidane/Thuram generation (when they were generally the most or 2nd most selected country), I noticed.
As an aside, I found it a surprising observation in the 'Das Reboot' book that between 1990 and 2010 there was not a single victory over a big footballing side in a tournament - confederations cup included (page 22; in qualifiers there is one win against England). Which helps to explain the relatively low average score for the 2000s. For the 2010s I had two/three players included.
I think a country like the Netherlands is naturally more prone to cyclical peaks and troughs with talent because of a lower population. To a degree that reflects in the challenge of decades where the Dutch had a lot of good players who were coming to an end at the end of the 90s and not many who were just beginning. People like Seedorf, Kluivert and Davids are odd cases a little as they started so young. That's really where Italy and Germany have previously been blessed in that they've managed that continuity without too many fallow periods. In contrast France, despite having a similar population to Italy, have typically had distinct generations. Now that is all reversed with France being something of a production line. Robben is another who is relatively unfortunate from a decades perspective. He's a much better candidate for the last 20 years in totality than for a single decade.
France is really strange in the way they have dropped out the top 20, top 25 sometimes, while this has never happened to England or Netherlands (since 1970 never below rank 14-15 in Elo). That is strange because of the population, but also the high investments made (the rightly praised 'formation centers' go back a long time and with big money put in, qualified people from elsewhere attracted and many people in the world can speak French), the general power and central role in the ecosystem (from the foundation of UEFA and the European Cup to many other things, organizing tournaments a few times which often brings a boost). Then when they do surface they have iconic number 10s and/or iconic strikers. I think someone like Seedorf is a very strong option for the 00s with his various qualities, the record vs top teams and achievements (also one of the <20 outfield players in history to play over 1000 games) and someone like F. De Boer a strong one for the 90s although his path might be blocked by e.g. Blanc and for left back there's Maldini. Seedorf his presentation and intellect as a teenager was truly remarkable; other than the teenagers Cruijff and De Ligt (whose career we don't know yet) I don't think I've seen someone else coming close or giving the same impression. Kompany maybe but don't have an as strong recollection of that. Davids (and others) is more like 1995 to 2005 than a particular decade. Then he is a very strong option. Maybe that his path is blocked by Keane but can potentially play alongside him. Robben would be practically a lock for 2005-2015, if it wasn't for his injuries. Then you also get certain great goals/moments such as the goal against France in 2008. He's one of the most selected wingers in ESM (if Ronaldinho and such are counted as forwards then he's the most selected winger). If the logic is David Silva starting almost twice as many games in the 10s then I get it. Kluivert I think is highly rated in his own country (two months ago I finally read Gullit's book and he had him down as the #2 striker in history) but unlucky to permanently injure his knee at the age of 27. His numbers and productivity are deceptive (as in that he was also a frequent assister and excluding penalties he was in many seasons more productive than Rivaldo, plus showing up in KO stages of CL and other tournaments). He wasn't the first I thought of for this but saw/see Tank lists him among the three honorable mentions for that era and he's sometimes underappreciated. This is probably a main factor. If you compare it to developed areas with similar population as London, Paris, Nordrhein Westfalen, Bayern, the combined regions of Lombardy+Veneto then you see the same up and downs I think. Even more pronounced arguably. Other possible things (and I'm asking you what you think) are the decline of the league quality (factor for Italy too), becoming a victim of your own success as a medium/smaller sized league/country (experiences Belgium too now) and that Netherlands was sooner than other countries to integrate minorities (next to or behind France, Portugal). To the extent Gullit was the first to win big things as captain and Rijkaard was the first and only colored CL winning manager (which other colored manager has been put in a place to win a big prize?) and he also reached the semis with the national team. Yes it helped he was a great player, nevertheless it isn't difficult to see the places where it never happens. Italy still has to make that hurdle (and Spain though the immigration only started there in the 1980s) but others have caught up and go beyond (integrating people who aren't even born on home turf; with Barcelona immediately recruiting 70+ pre-teens after the ban - I don't make up this number). For example Belgium and Germany were almost completely devoid of colored people in the 1980s. This is one of the main 'secrets' behind the golden generation. One other thing for the decline in 'surefire locks' is maybe the decline in births that we have seen everywhere in North and North-West Europe. Here there was a babyboom between 1945 and 1970, after which it declines steeply and this also extends to migrants now. This is true for entire North Europe and those don't have as many 'surefire locks' as years gone by (what I mention above). The number of people below 18 years old is lower as in 1980, and remains so for a while: The declined position of Amsterdam as a producer of talent is on the one hand because they were far ahead of the rest of the country. Then it spread to the rest of the country and as Wikipedia notes with references, close across the border (while KNVB shut the door and wasn't receptive at that moment!): "Cruyff's footballing ideas also influenced considerably Belgian football's coaching revolution leading by the former national technical director Michel Sablon in the early 2000s,[255][256] with the introduction of the Barçajax-inspired youth system that developed the talents of Belgium's new golden generation.[257][258][259]" Possibly also because of really strong gentrification processes (from moscow at the amstel to disneyland for the greens). Gentrification is not directly good news for people playing football. Robben or now De Jong could receive quality training despite being born and raised in small villages (of course bigger cities are never too far away), although this is also true for some 1970s stars like Arie Haan (a relatively remote town) who was technically and tactically a solid player and played in many big finals. Maybe it is also true in the past the socio-economic composition of a country/region was important while football forms now a separate system. With separate schools and millions of investments, which are not necessarily related to the infrastructure and development-system of children outside the football scene. E.g. Gullit went to a decent school in Amsterdam (with as outcome social mobility was and remains relatively high even if imperfect), which was most probably a better one as your average school in Rome, but football forms now (more so) a multi-million system unrelated to the rest of society. Take away the schooling and Ruud doesn't pop up everywhere as a pundit! Okay, this is a bit chaotic now, but just curious for possible explanations and factors behind this! (the decline and/or surefire locks).
Also again, it is too a great extent hard to gauge the level and potential of players. For example: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04987.pdf Many wonder now how it can be that Van Dijk made the longlist but not the squad of 2014. Given all the current praise and observing he always had it (to a large extent). By then he had already played the closed shop Champions League and played well in it, said also Van Gaal. Though it doesn't fully answer the story, the start is simply Vlaar and De Vrij also performed well. What you have also noticed too: "Based on this World Cup Ron Vlaar has "proved" himself to be one of the best centre-backs of the modern era. Commentators comparing him to Ruud Krol and Franz Beckenbauer. Except he clearly isnt. He's a good/decent player for the lower reaches of the Premier League." Back then he was team captain of Aston Villa and WhoScored/SofaScore/OPTA had him either as the best or 2nd best performer of his team in consecutive years (the other player was Fabian Delph). He's now 35, still playing and AZ Alkmaar is missing him greatly the last month. He evidently performed and did a solid/good job at the World Cup. Van Gaal said later: "Both Vlaar and Van Dijk were organizers, except that Ron was older, more experienced and had also lived through bad moments in his career like that Italy match of 2005." This is also true for De Vrij (he was in the statistical all star team) and has been performing very well for Lazio and Inter since (even though he missed one full season with injury and then needed half a year to find previous Serie A form). Is good with the ball. Funnily, the one who didn't convince (Martins Indi), not in all the matches at least, was precisely playing on Van Dijk's main position. The left of center position. Then after the Robben generation retired there were obviously a few difficult years, further exacerbated by disorganization in the KNVB (e.g. it is one thing to have a smaller scouting department as the big boys, another to have not a functioning one altogether), some unlucky cancelled goals in injury time (for a Gabriel Jesus vs Madrid like push) and that at hindsight Iceland and Sweden weren't so bad (could also survive and go past other big teams like England, Portugal, France, Germany in competitive matches).