Welcome to the All-Time Chain Draft This is the main thread in which we can talk and discuss the details prior to the start of the game and those that will be necessary during its development, but please refrain from naming unselected players or hinting at future until the selection process is over (this applies both to drafters and observers). Este es el hilo principal en el que podremos charlar y discutir sobre los detalles previos al inicio del juego y aquellos que sean necesarios tocar durante su desarrollo, pero, por favor, evitemos nombrar jugadores no seleccionados hasta que el proceso de selección haya finalizado (esto aplica tanto para los participantes como para los observadores). Parameters and Rules Parámetros y Reglas The draft will be based on selecting players of all-time to build a squad of 18 players, but all chained with the previous one for having played at least one official match in the same club in their careers (they do not need to have coincided there at the same time). Thus: El draft se basará en seleccionar jugadores de todos los tiempos para armar un plantel de 18 jugadores, pero todos encadenados/relacionados con el anterior por haber jugado al menos un partido oficial en un mismo club durante sus carreras (no es necesario que hayan coincidido en él al mismo tiempo). Así: 1. We will start ordering the participants to have a selection turn and will be a snake draft format. The selection period will be 6 hours within your timezone (9 a.m. - 11 p.m.). If someone misses a turn, the selections will continue without him, but he can make his missing selection(s) at any time he can rejoin. Comenzaremos ordenando a los participantes y los turnos tendrán un sentido serpenteante. El período de selección será de 6 horas dentro de lo correspondiente a sus zonas horarias (9 a.m. - 11 p.m.). Si alguien pierde un turno las selecciones continuarán sin él, pero podrá realizar su selección faltante (o las que le falten) en cualquier momento que pueda reincorporarse. 2. The first selection is totally free. From the second round you must chain your players with a club in common with your previous one and you should point out what it is. For this you can only use the same club to relate your selections a maximum of 2 times, no more. La primera selección es totalmente libre. Desde la segunda ronda deberán relacionar a sus jugadores con un club en común con respecto al anterior y deberán mencionar cuál es. Para esto solo podrán utilizar un mismo club como cadena un máximo de 2 veces, no más. 3. You must build a squad of 18 players (2 of them mandatory goalkeepers). In your final squad you will not be able to have more than 4 players with the same nationality. The nationality will be determined by the country in which each one born unless he has never officially played for his own country and yes for another. In the case of extinct countries, the countries that derived from them count as the same (for example: Di Stéfano is Argentine, Deco is Portuguese and Blokhin and Shevchenko count as from the same country). Deben armar un plantel de 18 jugadores (2 de ellos obligatoriamente arqueros). En su escuadra final no podrán tener más de 4 jugadores de una misma nacionalidad. La nacionalidad será determinada por el país en el que cada uno nació, a menos que nunca haya jugado oficialmente por dicho país y sí por otro. En el caso de países extintos, los países derivados de ellos contaron como el mismo (por ejemplo: Di Stéfano es argentino, Deco es portugués y Blokhin y Shevchenko contarán ambos como soviéticos). 4. After the selections there will be 2 stages. The first will be a ranking vote to choose the best team, best defense, best midfield and best attack. Everyone will present your best XI's for this choosing it from your squads. Luego de las selecciones habrán 2 etapas. La primera será un proceso de votación por ranking para poder elegir al mejor equipo, la mejor defensa, el mejor mediocampo y el mejor ataque. Todos presentarán sus mejores XI's para ello escogiéndolo de su plantel. 5. The second stage will be a tournament. The format is yet to be defined (it depends if we will play with 10 participants or add some more before starting). Although we will try to make it short, there will be home and away matches (with a local and a visitor) and it will work like this: First, each one can ban one player from his rival (the same player can only be banned once in the tournament). Then, the participant who works as a visitor must publish his lineup first and who is local will be able to do it later having seen the proposal of the rival. La segunda etapa será un torneo. El formato aún no está definido (depende si jugamos con 10 participantes o se suma alguien más antes de iniciar). Aunque trataremos de hacerlo corto, habrán partidos de ida y vuelta con un local y un visitante y funcionará así: Primero, cada participante podrá vetar a un jugador de su rival (el mismo jugador solo podrá ser vetado una vez en el torneo). Luego, el participante que funja de visitante deberá publicar su alineación primero y el que sea local podrá hacerlo después de haber visto su propuesta. Player evaluation: Full club and international career. Evaluación de los jugadores: Carrera completa a nivel de clubes e internacional. These are the basic indications for now. If you have suggestions or doubts we can treat them quickly before starting. Is someone else wants to joins us is still welcome. Estas son las indicaciones básicas por ahora. Si tienen sugerencias o dudas podemos tratarlas rápidamente antes de iniciar. Si alguien más desea unirse todavía es bienvenido. So far we are 10 participants: Hasta ahora somos 10 participantes: @Diez @heroearaucano @La-Máquina @PDG1978 @Perú FC @poetgooner @OT_CAPITANO @thebigman @tLB Odiseo @Tom Stevens I plan to start in around 24 hours from now. By then I will sort a random selection order and open the corresponding selection thread.
Peru, I'll confirm participation but won't take the UK timezone, instead an earlier one so that my window is finished by 8pm at the latest. That suits me better to feel comfortable enough to take part, and if I need to ever leave a list on any day during the daytime then I can do that too (as a few people might do I guess) - I doubt I would need to much though, and it's better not to I guess even if the chances of going for the same players as you and other drafters are reduced a bit compared to a normal all-time draft, especially in later rounds.
I know of course that in theory 6 hours within the timezone would mean that I wasn't compelled to pick before 11pm, but I think it would be inconvenient for people waiting for me if I wasn't available at say 9pm or 10pm, as we want to limit the time people have to wait when they are ready to pick I guess. So yeah, I think it is better to switch my timezone - if I am a little slow to pick early in the morning that would not be so much of a problem for example I think, but I'd probably at least pick within a couple of hours of the start of the window anyway I think. I'm guessing you prefer I do take part since you don't have a big list of people signed up yet anyway. But it's ok if I don't - I guess if you put me in Moscow Timezone it'd work fine though lol!
Maybe we wouldn't evaluate the tournament based on 'full career'? I thought it was worth asking, as normally I'd see that concept as the teams playing each other in prime form moreso. I understand that the comparison and voting on teams (stage 1) will be based on full careers though, and I guess it's good for us all to be clear about that before we start.
Personally, I think the nationality limit should be more strict. Given the huge talent pool, it would make it more interesting.
I think a work-around that would fit in well with the draft theme is to pick a seasonal form that coincide with the club connection. For example, if you pick Messi, then you use the Barcelona connection to pick Maradona, you can only pick the seasonal form from when Maradona played for Barcelona.
You're welcome mate. I've sent you a MP to coordinate your available hours. In the way of evaluating the players there can always be some differences, but I suppose that it would be most appropiate that for the ranking votes try to take into account a certain balance between the prominence of full careers and their peaks of performance and for the tournament to take a little more into account the level of the players in their prime based on a not-so-short period (to avoid one-hit wonders), perhaps that of about around 4 or 5 years. Would it seem good? En la forma de evaluar a los jugadores siempre habrán algunas diferencias, pero supongo que lo más adecuado es que para la etapa de las votaciones por ranking tratemos de tener en cuenta un cierto balance entre las prominencias de las carreras enteras y sus picos de rendimiento y para el torneo en sí tener más en cuenta sus primes basados en un período no tan corto (para evitar aquellos que fueron muy fugaces), tal vez de alrededor de 4 o 5 años. ¿Les parecería bien?
Yeah, I've given reps to both posts above, and think I shouldn't try to influence too much as I am not the one organising this particular draft! Maybe it was a good question to ask anyway, and I think it's ok to judge things a bit different anyway in the tournament games (with the 18 players available) compared to the regular voting for the chosen XI,
To be honest, I think they would be very interesting parameters to establish and I'd like to implement them, but some of the participants (2 of them) have told me they would prefer that complexity not increase much more than the original idea (they would have to have more time to develop their strategy). That's the reason I also negotiated to set the parameter of nationalities to 4 and not to 2, as I had previously mentioned as idea. I'd prefer everyone to feel comfortable with the complexity mate. Para ser sincero, creo que serían muy interesantes parámetros para establecer y me gustaría implementarlos, pero algunos de los participantes (2 de ellos) me han comentado que prefieren que la complejidad no aumente demasiado a comparación de la idea original (sino necesitarían de un mayor tiempo para desarrollar sus estrategias). Esa es la razón por la que negocié establecer el parámetro de las nacionalidades en 4 y ya no en 2 como máximo, como anteriormente había mencionado como idea. Preferiría que todos se sientan cómodos con la complejidad del juego. P.D.: By the way, I must clarify that many of the participants usually communicate thorugh WhatsApp and there they've expressed their opinions to me. I will urge them to manifest their ideas hereinafter, publicly, so that everyone can read them equally. P.D.: Por cierto, debo aclarar que varios de los participantes nos comunicamos usualmente por WhatsApp y es por allí que me manifestaron sus opiniones. Los instaré para que en adelante las manifiesten por aquí, públicamente, para que todos puedan leerlas por igual.
You're obliged to grant me the revenge after snatching me grimly the Peruvian Draft for 1 point (secretly allied with Diez). With you we would be 12: @Diez @heroearaucano @JJMM1 @La-Máquina @msioux75 @PDG1978 @Perú FC @poetgooner @OT_CAPITANO @thebigman @tLB Odiseo @Tom Stevens In about 5 or 6 hours I set the order of selection.
Evaluating players on their whole club and international career seems a little strange to me, even though that is how these drafts usually go. So basically the players with the best resumes should win the voting, but how does that translate into actually building a formation an tactics? Players have tactics and attributes, but resumes do not. I feel like some people try to have a player in these types of drafts who they see as having every quality a player expressed throughout their hole career present in the one moment of this imaginary draft/game. For example, Pele is imagined having all the power and explosiveness of his youth circa 1960 but in the tactics presented by the drafter he is is dropping deep with all the play making attributes of Pele circa 1970. I think if we are basing this off of games and a tournament, managers should have to be specific on what time period the player is from during the game.
It's a good point. As in the previous answer, I think that for the tournament we can focus on primes of around 5 years, so we could establish that everyone should choose a time span of 5 years for every player to be able to jugde them from that period (skills and tactical roles). Es un buen punto. Como en la anterior respuesta, creo que para el torneo podemos enfocarnos en primes de alrededor de 5 años, así que podemos establecer que todos debemos escoger junto al jugador un período de 5 años por el cual serán juzgados (tanto por habilidades como por roles tácticos).
I do not agree because I consider that it is not necessary … obviously if someone uses Messi of false 9, I Will count to his version of when he played false 9 from 2010-2014 because there it is when he played as false 9 but I am not going to award him the enormous creation attributes that he later showed post-2015. This, it will depend the assigned role.
Well, even in periods of 5 years several players developed multiple skills and played several roles (only with different frequencies). Messi himself, between 2010 and 2014, played excellently as false 9, but also served as right wing-forward and as a trequartista behind a 9 (especially with Argentina), only not as often as today we can see him (precisely since around 2015). I think there were similar conditions (in terms of skills) that we could not ignore, I suppose. On second thought, I think for the tournament we could still continue thinking about primes of around 5 years, but we could give added value to those who had long and consistent careers with reinvention periods giving the possibility to his manager to choose his version in each match (just don't pretend that he could have all the skills and abilities at the top of his different versions). For example: Cristiano Ronaldo probably be judged by default for a similar period of 2012-2016, but he could give the possibility to his manager in a specific game to change his version to a somewhat younger one (perhaps 2006-2010), when he was less a scorer and predator wing-forward/support striker and more a sparkling and fast winger/wing-forward. In any case, in any version he would win and lost something. In that case it would be not necessary to choose a period with the player, just specify which version will be used in each match if the default prime version won't be used. Bueno, incluso en períodos de 5 años varios jugadores desarrollaron múltiples habilidades y desempeñaron varios roles (solo que con diferentes frecuencias). Messi mismo, entre 2010 y 2014, jugó excelentemente como un falso 9, pero también fungió como falso extremo por derecha y mediapunta detrás de un 9 (especialmente con Argentina), solo que no tan seguido como ahora (precisamente desde 2015 más o menos). Creo que igualmente tenía similares condiciones (en términos de habilidades y visión de juego) que no podríamos ignorar, supongo. Pensándolo bien, creo que para el torneo podríamos continuar juzgando por partido por primes de 5 años, pero darle un valor agregado a los futbolistas que tuvieron largas y consistentes carreras con períodos de reinvención otorgándole la posibilidad a su mánager de cambiar su versión para un determinado partido (solo no pretender que podría tener todas las capacidades al tope de todas sus versiones a la misma vez). Por ejemplo: Cristiano Ronaldo probablemente sería juzgado por defecto por el período 2012-2016, más o menos, pero él podría darle la posibilidad a su mánager en un partido específico de cambiar su versión a una más joven (tal vez la de 2006-2010), cuando él era menos un puntero/segunda punta goleador y depredador y más un chispeante y veloz extremo/puntero. En todo caso, en cualquier versión ganaría y perdería algo. En ese caso no sería necesario escoger un período para cada jugador, solo especificar qué versión se utilizará de él en cada partido si es que no va a ser usado su usual prime por defecto.
I understand that if I pick Messi, is not mandatory to pick a real teammate who played with him at Barcelona. I mean: Messi (Barca) --> Samitier (Barca) is a valid pick?
Another question about club limits If the drafter before me selects Facchetti, and I select Ronaldo using Inter as the link between the two players does Ronaldo only count against one of my two Inter slot or against Inter, Real, and Barca etc?
Tom, hello I introduce myself, I am Hereoearaucano, sorry for my bad english. I think your argument confuses the roles with the profile. It is important to criticize the managers who presuppose that their player must do all the tasks, rather the role must be defined, according to the task assigned for the specific game. This should not be confused with the subject of the profile. If during career, a player presented a history of polyfunctionality, that should be assumed as a strategic card to highlight. For example, Teodoro Alcalde was a Peruvian player who stood out for many years playing in the offensive wing position, but at the end of his career, this player, positioned himself as a defense. This ANTECEDENT justifies that I can employ Teodoro Alcalde, in the role of MD, in a hypothetical 4-4-2 wingless, where Teodoro Alcalde has tasks assigned to the mark work. There are several cases like this, such as D. Edwards, G. Sárosi and J. Charles to name a few. The ANTECEDENT is indescribable, to raise well contextualized information, about the profile of a player. Conclusión The profile of a player is not a quantitative statistical data that can be summarized in a curriculum, but that is qualitative, and the method of rigor consists in the reconstruction of contexts from their antecedents. Chicos, corríjanme si tengo algo mal escrito!
Just to clarify here Tom: I think that you don't need to find a link between the player the drafter before you selects and the player you select, but just between the previous player you selected yourself and your new player. I guess @Perú FC will confirm, but that's how I read point 2 in the instructions. As poet said, in terms of the club allocations yeah I'm sure it'd just be against Inter if you did select Ronaldo using an Inter link. But just in case you had a different impression, I thought I'd clarify that (it seems to me) you could select for example Puskas after a drafter selects Facchetti (ie a non-Inter player) as long as there is a link between a club your previous player played for and Puskas. That link between your two players then counts towards the allocation (and then the link between the selected player and your next player, and so on).
Chicos, quién me traduce esto al ingles? please Mi método de evaluación en un torneo virtual. Lista de aspectos que considero. 1.- Ponderación de nivel de los jugadores comparados. Pasos: 1a.- investigar referentes de ranking y gustos propios (esto es más subjetivo) 1b.- hacer comparaciones entre nivel de jugadores en hipotéticos enfrentamientos de acuerdo a cada partido. 2.- Análisis de perfil (se trata de analizar la especialidad y el potencial). Pasos: 2a.- definir especialidad en cuanto la precisión de su mejor rol. 2b.- considerar de distintos roles, como antecedentes en busca del perfil como criterio de fondo (esto es indispensable cuando se trata de un jugador polifuncional). 2c.- ponderar la potencialidad en cuanto al mejor rol posible (sacar el 100% de su jugador). El mejor rol posible explota de mejor forma el potencial que existe en el perfil del jugador. 3.- Análisis de la propuesta táctica. Aspectos: a-. análizar y comparar el dibujo táctico de ambos contrincantes en cuanto a las fortalezas y debilidades (FODA). b.- evaluar la coherencia del rol, respecto a los demás roles y todo lo que implica. Cómo se explota la relación entre jugadores. c.- considerar la elección de estilos de juego y coherencia con los jugadores elegidos. Estilos que no puntualizaré (por ahí lo hice en xtratime), pero a grandes rasgos se clasifican en estilos de posesión de balón, de individualidad técnica de jugadores (como el fútbol de los 50 en brasil, construido a partir de la conducción con pelota dominada y dominio del pase arriesgado) y los estilos de disposición y despliegue en el campo. Hay interrelaciones y todo. d.- considerar el dominio del balón y por ende definición del espacio (quien domina el balón impone dónde se juega el partido). e.- considerar la disposición ataque, defensiva, equilibrio o compacto. (de repente lo relaciono con la coherencia al ser visitante o local) 4.- Consideración de aspectos extras como uso de la información de localía y otras que todavía no defino.
Even though I said I wouldn't get involved with organising lol, I do have one idea: maybe the results of the 'ranking votes' should not be revealed until after the tournament is over too? So the votes could be taken, but Peru could keep them secret and reveal at the end? Ok, Peru himself would know them (unless a 3rd party took the votes by PM instead), but the rest of us would play the tournament without knowledge of how the ranking votes turned out.
That's correct. Just in case, I should clarify that the chains are independent for each one. I mean, it is not that each one must chain with the player who chose the previous drafter, but with the player that you chose in the previous round. I hope there is no confusion. On the other hand, the player that is chosen may have played in many teams, but the chain in the game only consume the team that each one indicates. For the next round all those teams in which he played could be options to chain. For example: Round 1 (Free Selection) Lionel Messi Round 2 (First Chain: Barcelona) - The player must have played for Barcelona. Bojan Krkic Round 3 (Second Chain: Barcelona) - The player must have played for Barcelona, AS Roma, AC Milan, Ajax, Stoke City, Mainz 05, Deportivo Alavés or Montreal Impact. Mark van Bommel - You have to choose if he will be chained by Barcelona or AC Milan. If you choose Barcelona, it will be the last time you can use it as a chain, but you can choose AC Milan. - In any case, you choose Barcelona. Round 4 (Third Chain: Bayern Munich) - The player must have played for Fortuna Sittard, PSV Eindhoven, Bayern Munich or AC Milan and cannot be chained by Barcelona. Thiago Alcántara - He is a former Barcelona player, but as he is chained by Bayern Munich he is eligible. Etcetera... Exactly By the way, yes, that's the idea. That way there will be no previous influence when judging the matches.