It is difficult to see how you can say the Italian decision was correct and the EPL one was a gray area, given the circumstances of both incidents. My opinion here is that neither was a deliberate handling, and getting different decisions is what is leading to the tremendous confusion among fans, players, coaches, referees and pundits. PH
It falls in the borderline of whether that is natural silhouette or not, I think. I hope that each association has clear guidelines for how to evaluate handlings like that so there is an absolutist interpretation in each league / nation (it is hard to ask for more). In Valeri's situation I don't see the scope for doubt, after the LotG revisions for this season.
Putting aside the different of opinions as to whether it was deliberate (which suggest it is not obvious), the above statement is simply false. If the VAR didn’t think it was a clear error, it wouldn’t get sent down for an OFR. The lack of PL OFR isn’t why this wasn’t reversed, it wasn’t reversed because the VAR didn’t think it was a clear error to not consider this deliberate handling.
I understand that. My point is we all know how VAR is supposed to work. But those rules aren't always being followed. So, if the rules are being followed, lets fix this. I hate that VAR usurps the power of the referee. VAR should not say "it's clear error". VAR should say "you might want to look at that again." If after the OFR, the CR keeps his call, so be it. Why should the VAR official's opinion trump the CR's opinion? They are a team. Discuss, don't tell.
To state the glaringly obvious: exactly right. If an EPL trained VAR doesn’t think this is a clear error, then the referee shouldn’t either. Because, of course, the referee is also an EPL trained VAR. They should be operating off the same standard. Yes, with OFRs there have been differences of opinions in other leagues so it’s always possible an OFR leads to “call stands” when the VAR is suggesting otherwise. Both those situations are A) rare and B) inherently cases of the referee sticking to the on-field call when the VAR suggests otherwise. Any suggestion that the referee would “very likely” call this if only he got to have an OFR is not grounded in any facts. The facts directly contradict that assertion. You can have a different opinion on the merits in real time (which, I obviously disagree with). But the arguments for VAR intervention are fanciful unless you ignore all the ways VAR works (both within England and elsewhere) and substitute your own standard for what the actual training is. Please, no. “You might want to look at this” cannot and should not be the standard. What’s the point of a VAR being a referee at that point? Yes, there should be OFRs. But they should be identified as suspected clear errors. Anything else is “re-refereeing” and opens the door to so many stoppages. Every borderline challenge in the penalty area and every handball in the penalty area would need an OFR. Who wants that?
No called fouls in CHE-MU until 22:39. That’s gotta be some kind of record to start a game. Interesting VAR review for Maguire kick-out, nothing given.
Check, but yes. What’s frightening there almost has nothing to do with VAR. A pretty clear kick to the groin area after the ball is out of play is not a red card for three—maybe four—EPL officials who all have a good look at it from different angles. Kind of mind-blowing how far things can sometimes go in the pursuit of maintaining 11 v 11. I can’t think of another top division where that’s not an easy red card.
Also, generally speaking I really think Anthony Taylor has gone from being one of the top referees in Europe (which was a bit of a surprise) in September to being pretty shaky and almost a different type of official today. He’s gone from reffing like a Mike Dean to more like an Andre Marriner. All the calls to as few as possible. It’s strange.
I disagree with the yellow to Willian. Was it a dive? Yes. Was it an attempt to deceive? No, it was an attempt to keep from being injured. There are non-cautionable reasons to dive. This was one of them. Also, why no caution on the reckless elbow to the face?
English VAR is crap. When you are shoved in the back, you go forward. If there's someone in front of you, you're going to make contact. The only foul in the build-up was committed by Man U.
This Chelsea v. MU has everything that is wrong with VAR. No OFR rules out a Chelsea equalizer, and United go 2-0 with a guy who should have been sent off in the first half.
This has been horrendous. And I can’t help but surmise that Taylor’s seeming decrease in confidence stems, in part, from VAR second-guessing (or sometime not correcting!) his decisions. He looks lost out there.
It’s an off-site roulette table at this point. Broadcasters rarely stir the pot for the right reasons, but the comparison to Son is dead-on. Son gets red and a 3 game-ban. Maguire gets no sanction and an insurance goal. It was the same act with the result potentially being much worse with Maguire. The inconsistency defies logic. The only consistent thing is Taylor’s inability to confidently recognize VC in real-time. He really looks like he’s reffing scared.
Me: It can't be that bad *watches the video* https://streamvi.com/watch.php?video=1581972291 Wow it was that bad
The Son comparison is spot on. (Stolen joke: It can't be a foul, he got all ball!) https://streamja.com/4KZG
I was thinking about this too, I wonder if it is as clear cut as that. I don't think his way of refereeing changed in that time, I think he was always a referee who stayed in the background and had an overview-based style. His big virtue, why he got so much at a UEFA level, is he has an excellent feeling of when to intervene. My idea is that he went too far in the decision taker - game manager spectrum; he kind of second guesses himself, if you get what I mean (ie. if he can get away with not giving a foul, card - he will). I don't think that PGMOL / UEFA will consider that as a loss of form, though; they ought to really (and I still think he's better than Oliver for an international level). Taylor (and Attwell as FO) missed a Violent Conduct in the Turkey - Iceland game in November too, both in their vincinities. I really hope that Christopher Kavanagh would intervene if such an incident happens in the Atalanta - Valencia game on Wednesday evening, where he will act as VAR. Also from what I saw tonight: Bailey on Kovačić was a clear standing leg tackle (Penalty + YC) but those don't exist here; well done to the VAR for how quickly they disallowed Giroud's goal for offside in the 2H.
I think all that is right @Mikael_Referee. I do think Taylor went from being a potential UCL semifinal referee to my middle of the pack right now. He’s going to have to perform in Europe. And such a performance, at this point, would be in contrast to his EPL form.
I never thought I would ever have to say this, but the officiating in the Premier League is really abysmal. If they have lost me, who knows how many others feel the same. This was a sh*t show all round. Pathetic. (Oh, BTW, I am not a fan of either MU or Chelsea.) PH
The mental gymnastics that EPL referees do to justify keeping these top 6 matches 11 vs. 11 is quite remarkable. How can four officials on the pitch, plus one official in VOR room all see the same thing and say it's not a red card is really remarkable. The big thing I've noticed in all my years of following the EPL, is that once an official gets established and deemed good enough or experienced enough to handle these top matches that it becomes almost impossible for them to be dropped/relegated from these matches no matter how poorly you perform. You have to be genuinely awful and have a series of poor calls that you just become too toxic to put on the games. Was Stuart Atwell the last EPL referee that was genuinely fired/dropped due to performance? There was a period after the 2010 World Cup where Howard Webb was genuinely awful in the EPL and yet he kept getting the big matches. Your reputation starts to precede you. Then towards the end of his career he became really really good internationally and stopped getting top EPL matches.
No. He asked PGMOL to be demoted to the National List (Tier II, III, IV games in that time) or he would end his career. In England it's de facto impossible to demote a professional referee thanks to an employment tribunal ruling from some years ago. If I'm not wrong Stephen Tanner (ex-FIFA, now important figure at the FA) and Keith Stroud (great referee, international level) were the last to be removed from handling PL games by PGMOL.