MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Especially since the club he players for doesn’t emphasize that skill in a CB.
     
  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It is a thread about MLS and MLS fans make these silly arguments about foreign based players and then hype MLS players who do similar or worse. I dont see Morales doing anything wrong. He stood his ground when a player struck him in a way that could have been interpreted as a red card.

    Who are these smarter players that have been in the team this year? Trapp didnt pick up a yellow but also didnt get stuck in. He also beat in midfield and turned the ball over in midfield leading to a counters. Where is the complaint for Longs needlessly unnecessary yellow at the end of the first half. It is much worse for a CB to be on a yellow than a #8. I wonder if Long's yellow distracted him from seeing the runner and not keeping him inside on the 3rd goal.

    A mistake is a mistake. The only people who arent being honest about the players are the ones attacking Morales and hyping the MLS players.
     
  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Why do you keep with this crap? He made a mistake and was a clear bright spot. Similar with Dest.
     
  4. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    I think A Robinson is the player that has really been screwed by the one poor game and done. He was played out of position (LM) before the GC and was sent home. He did so much for us going forward on the left from the LB spot that the few defensive mistakes should have been looked over as something to work on.

    I don’t think Morales has been screwed over since he got called back in for the LON game against Canada.
     
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  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    you can make a mistake and still be a bright spot as just about every poster and pundit has noted.

    he is behind adams and McKennie but well above roldan, Bradley, trapp and Yueill (with the last at least having potential upside given age).
     
  6. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    1st I’ve yet to see a BS thread stay on topic.

    2nd no one is on here claiming Long or Trapp was one of the few bright spots.
     
  7. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Agree to disagree
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You sound like Tomasbernal. He was ignored in March and June and pushed to the bench for Yeuill. Holmes was called in June, forced his way onto the roster but got injured, and then was ignored for the rest of the year.
     
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You dont value bench depth after you just played in a final where there was literally no decent options on the bench?
     
  10. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Your not understanding me. I don’t think he’s been screwed for his poor game against Mexico. He’s been called in sense then unlike A Robinson who has been one and done.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    And yet Long is considered an automatic starter by most on here.

    I'd call a guy a bright spot when he is one of the best performers on the day and looks to be able to clearly help the team.
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He didnt have a poor game. He made a mistake in the 82nd minute that should have 3nded up a goal if we had competent center backs.

    He played well enough to get another start based on the players available.
     
  13. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    1st Bradley and Trapp don’t play the same spot as Roldan. 2nd I haven’t seen enough from Morales for me to rank him against those players. I don’t just rank players by leagues like you do. I like to see them playing for the US in games. You were clearly more impressed by Morales than I was in the Mexico game. He was OK against Canada in the minutes he played. I’m also not writing off Morales, I’m just waiting to be impressed by more than just a resume.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yet Morales can play both of those spots.

    Please point to where I rank players by leagues. This is the same lame straw man that MLS fans throw out to continue to justify why these MLS players continue to get looks when they have no business playing international soccer.

    It isnt my fault that you dont watch him with his club. The game showed that his club performances are likely to transfer to the international game. I'm not sure I'm that much more impressed with his play as I am disgusted by the play of the alternatives. 2019 set a record for wasted caps on players that dont belong. Morales easily raises the bar that those players set.
     
  15. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    You might be right. Certainly robinson has gotten the worst of it recently, though that will likely change soon as the Milan transfer is something I don't Egg can ignore. It's pretty funny that his talent identification is so bad he needs a couple PL teams and AC Milan hovering before he can figure out Robinson is worth a call up. Though that is premature, as he may continue to ignore him!

    I think Morales has been screwed over for years now. If Egg (and Arena) can't identify talent appropriately, as seems to be the case with Robinson and others, why would we trust USSF/national team evaluators? Morales has been a decent squad player in the BL, which until recently was pretty much unobtainable for US players. My opinion with our pretty weak talent is that if you play in a top 4 league, u are guaranteed a spot in our 23, and likely starting. Reyna? He's pretty much a starter for me at this point.

    I realize Dortmund is different, and Morales has been between B2 and b1 for his career (though B1 the last 4). But at the very least, and I don't think many would argue, he should have been given more chances the last 4-5 years. We've had Bradley as a guaranteed starter, playing zero defense at the 6, when we missed the WC, while Morales, a defensive mid starting in B1, doesn't even get called in. That's ridiculous. Now that we have more talent there (Wes, Adams pretty much), I don't think he's a starter, but he's been properly screwed the last half decade.
     
    Patrick167 repped this.
  16. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    The same lame straw man that you started our whole conversation with? Remember you called me a MLS fanboy or something like that.

    Anyways I have watched him play a few BL games, but only when they are playing someone worth watching. His team is as painful as Bremen to watch. Morales is OK in the games I’ve watched. Some negatives I’ve seen in the few games I’ve watched of FD is he is not proactive but rather reactive. This makes him late to space even when it’s obvious that the ball is going there. This causes him to do a lot of chasing after the ball or man. And he’s not immune to some bad passes. To his defense I think a lot of this could be down to disorganization of FD in general. His positives are his hustle. He plays quick and is tenacious.
     
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  17. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Morales isn’t Jermaine Jones or Bradley on talent. He’s certainly not Claudio Reyna or John O’Brien. He’s not as good as Holden or Dempsey we’re playing as CM’s in a worse MLS. Heck Klinsmann certainly favored Bedoya and Beckerman over him. In the Bundesliga he’s not been at FJ or Chandler’s level or probably Danny Williams (including his time in England), and he’s not as good and much less talented than Wes and Tyler in roughly the same roles. He is absolutely mediocre. He’s a hard man who doesn’t solely play at the 6 who isn’t a good passer and doesn’t seem to be a greater reader of the game or tactical thinker. I’ve watched multiple Bundesliga games where all I took away from him is that he went hard into some challenges, at best he’s hit some good shots from distance and broke out on the counter plus the hard man work.

    Now the thing about the USMNT is that largely we have been mediocre during Morales’ best years. His flavor of mediocre could replace Roldan’s or post-decline Bradley’s or stalled Trapp’s or Acosta’s. Now what do we need him for? If Holmes, McKennie, and Adams are healthy he’s 4th on the depth chart in his role. I’d take him over Roldan and probably Servania, now. Lletget, Pomykal, and Yueill all fill different roles so it depends on what’s called for but I generally like having players who contribute to the attack, especially if the rest of the midfield options don’t. He’s on the fringe and only in the 23 if others are out.
     
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  18. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Disagree. Cannon stayed back 100% defending which meant the offense was under-manned. At the same time, he managed to defend well but took a yellow and tired which meant he had to be replaced. Normally, one does not replace a rb. The play that scored came out of the side where Cannon played (altho he was off by then, due to the yellow card).
    I'm not trying to "get" Cannon; I'm just asking for a higher level of scrutiny.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #3169 juvechelsea, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
    you can't be real about that because under more scrutiny -- equally applied -- people start to notice Dest getting megged on consecutive games or Yedlin back doored. and these things are not isolated beefs in wins. these decided results against us or turned wins into ties. these are the things teams that actually want to win care about.

    i also think a value judgment rather than objective notion slips in when one chides a back for being back. i could just as easily say yedlin gets caught upfield a lot.

    and my grander point was in terms of cold numbers over 2 years of caps the objective numbers favor things in the opposite order of what the club snobs would postulate. cannon gets criticized for offense but on the whole has several assists when used. his competition is touted for the appearance of attacking but then tangible productivity is the question. as i have said dozens of times, merely being up is overrated. if your sales pitch is offense, i want numbers. this is the difference between robinson and others. he hits crosses people can actually score. this is also what bradley doesn't do. he is deemed maestro. he doesn't actually dole out assists. for a team that needs more big game goals and offense that distinction matters.

    I also think people need to be able to play their position well. You're like "scrutiny" but to me the bigger part of that is defense.

    yedlin's problem is not that he absolutely sucks at back, it's that back is like the inverse of forward. a forward can be asleep for 89 and bang in a 90' winner and be a hero. a back can do his job for 89 and nap on a backdoor ball once and that's the result right there and he's the goat.

    people act like i am not objective but what they do is ignore the GA and result when certain people play certain spots. they act like i ignore stuff but i don't. what they do is turn anecdotes into stories. they then dismiss stories about their favorites as anecdotes.

    the reality check is the GAA. is the results. you do that you see the critiques of some players are trying to make mountains from molehills and are trying to understate players who when they start the team may ship more than 2 goals a game every time they are on a backline. you can pretend i am not being objective but when you line up examples to an average it ceases to be anecdotal or a failure to scrutinize. no, the shoe is on the other foot on that, i am afraid. y'all are the ones who want to run out the same people who play in every game we ship 3-4 goals, and act like it's coincidence or will change next time.

    my personal favorite is, "his average is high because he starts the big games." oh, and ships a bunch? man, that's my idea of a starter. forgive me if i want more like mexico 2018 or france 2018 -- at least -- than the other nonsense that's followed. there was a time when you were judged by performance and results and not resumes.
     
  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i mean the whole point here with GAA results shutouts goals assists etc. is let's put some objectivity and teeth in the analysis as opposed to listen to people try and turn anecdotes into the story or the story into a mere anecdote. you do that long enough with the US you find attackers who don't assist much or defenders who can't really defend.

    so let's sort out which guys actually create and which guys actually defend. some of the results are then surprising eg Morris, Arriola.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    The problem is you harp on Dest, Yedlin, and Brooks and have yet to see put the the same scrutiny to Long. Long is responsible for more goals than any of these guys in 2019 and is a liability with the ball.

    I dont care how he plays against poor teams. The games against Venezuela, Mexico and Uruguay provide a good idea of what will happen against better teams. He made just about every defensive mistake possible in those three games.

    None of our defenders are perfect and the idea that we can can discard one for a couple of mistakes is one of the dumber ones in have seen.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Lletget, Pomykal, and Yueill arent reyna, obrien, ramos, harkes, bradley, jones, etc. They are all unproven players with questionable upside. For some reason, some people over rate MLS players significantly when the league has never produced players of that level. Lletget has already stalled and is limited physically. I havent bought into Yeuill and suspect he will struggle once time and space are reduced. Pomykal has one season in MLS and has done nothing internationally but some have him penciled in as a starter.

    The clear starting midfield should be Adam's, Mckennie, and Pulisic. I'd split the 6 midfield spots between three 6/8s and three 10/8/silly deep lying playmakers. I dont see anybody in the pool other than Morales as the third 6/8. Maybe Servania or someone similar can challenge down the road.

    After Pulisic, Holmes is the next obvious player. He should get the opportunity to show if he belong or not. After that, there are a bunch of players battling for that last spot... it could be more as Pulisic and others can also play out on the wing. The players with the highest upside to me seem to be Reyna, Ledezma, and Llainez. The remaining challengers would be Lletget, Yeuill, Pomykal, Mendez, Aaronson, etc. I'd probably rotate the first three of each group for now and see who stands out.
     
  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Moved

    I was hopeful and expecting that Cannon and long would move up the ladder but it didn’t happen - didn’t really appear that close either.

    the only success stories MLS has had in developing players who step into a major league role in recent years is:

    - Davies
    - adams

    who have very few high level minutes between them right now. I also think that they are elite athletes who play defense for their major league team.

    I’ll be interested to see who follows their path but I don’t see the same level of player/athlete right now as Davies and adams. Hopefully, I’m wrong (and they’re not all f***ing Canadians)
     
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  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    From another thread...
    [QUOTE="TxEx, post: 38508669, member: 295498"]LigaMX is better than MLS but please go on and tell me all of the star teenagers getting big minutes in that league. Are those clubs with more money than MLS failures at development too? The league is heading in the right direction. MLS is giving more kids chances and teams, plus the kids themselves are beginning to benefit from it but the entire system is a pyramid and the closer to the top the fewer the players are. That's sports. In every league, in every sport around the world. Failure is the norm.[/QUOTE]
    I looked up top 100 valued players who were 22 yo or younger in Liga MX and MLS. It shows 16 Mexicans with at least a value of $3.3m or higher and 6 americans between $2.20m to $3.30m. The big difference is in the 22 year olds. There are 11 of them that have become reasonable players vs Miles Robinson. I'd say that Liga MX is doing a much better job of taking youth players and turning them into solid professionals.

    # Player Position Age Market value
    1 Marcel Ruiz Attacking Midfield 19 $4.40m
    2 José Macías Centre-Forward 20 $11.00m
    3 Jonathan González Defensive Midfield 20 $3.85m
    4 Roberto Alvarado Attacking Midfield 21 $8.25m
    6 Gerardo Arteaga Left-Back 21 $3.85m
    7 César Montes Centre-Back 22 $7.15m
    9 Uriel Antuna Right Winger 22 $5.50m
    10 Jesús Angulo Left Winger 22 $4.95m
    11 Érick Aguirre Left-Back 22 $4.40m
    12 Jorge Sánchez Right-Back 22 $4.40m
    13 Cristian Calderón Left-Back 22 $4.40m
    14 Nicolás Benedetti Attacking Midfield 22 $4.40m
    16 Sebastián Jurado Goalkeeper 22 $3.85m
    18 Alexis Vega Centre-Forward 22 $3.30m
    20 Sebastián Córdova Attacking Midfield 22 $3.30m
    21 Jesús Angulo Left-Back 22 $3.30m


    1 Gianluca Busio Central Midfield 17 $3.08m
    6 Jesús Ferreira Centre-Forward 19 $2.20m
    9 Paxton Pomykal Attacking Midfield 20 $2.20m
    12 Reggie Cannon Right-Back 21 $3.30m
    13 Djordje Mihailovic Attacking Midfield 21 $3.08m
    16 Miles Robinson Centre-Back 22 $3.30m

    Aaronson, Lewis, and Herrera $1m to $2m
    9 u23s <$1m
     
  25. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    I looked up top 100 valued players who were 22 yo or younger in Liga MX and MLS. It shows 16 Mexicans with at least a value of $3.3m or higher and 6 americans between $2.20m to $3.30m. The big difference is in the 22 year olds. There are 11 of them that have become reasonable players vs Miles Robinson. I'd say that Liga MX is doing a much better job of taking youth players and turning them into solid professionals.

    # Player Position Age Market value
    1 Marcel Ruiz Attacking Midfield 19 $4.40m
    2 José Macías Centre-Forward 20 $11.00m
    3 Jonathan González Defensive Midfield 20 $3.85m
    4 Roberto Alvarado Attacking Midfield 21 $8.25m
    6 Gerardo Arteaga Left-Back 21 $3.85m
    7 César Montes Centre-Back 22 $7.15m
    9 Uriel Antuna Right Winger 22 $5.50m
    10 Jesús Angulo Left Winger 22 $4.95m
    11 Érick Aguirre Left-Back 22 $4.40m
    12 Jorge Sánchez Right-Back 22 $4.40m
    13 Cristian Calderón Left-Back 22 $4.40m
    14 Nicolás Benedetti Attacking Midfield 22 $4.40m
    16 Sebastián Jurado Goalkeeper 22 $3.85m
    18 Alexis Vega Centre-Forward 22 $3.30m
    20 Sebastián Córdova Attacking Midfield 22 $3.30m
    21 Jesús Angulo Left-Back 22 $3.30m


    1 Gianluca Busio Central Midfield 17 $3.08m
    6 Jesús Ferreira Centre-Forward 19 $2.20m
    9 Paxton Pomykal Attacking Midfield 20 $2.20m
    12 Reggie Cannon Right-Back 21 $3.30m
    13 Djordje Mihailovic Attacking Midfield 21 $3.08m
    16 Miles Robinson Centre-Back 22 $3.30m

    Aaronson, Lewis, and Herrera $1m to $2m
    9 u23s <$1m[/QUOTE]

    How did you determine their values?
     

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