MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It looks like we have a new MLS fan not making much sense in this thread. It looks like in these posts going after Morales has misinformation, straw men, different expectations for non-MLS players, and just weak arguments.

    If I have got this right, Morales is at fault for standing up for himself when struck on the side of his neck/head and that yellow was the reason we gave up that 82nd minute goal. Of course that goal was the third goal and didnt really have any impact on the final result.

    It seems that people who make these arguments only consider non-MLS players if they are clear starters for the national team. Anyone who watched the GC knows how poor the bench was. We go player by player, but I think just looking at the subs in the final is very good indication. None of Zardes, Roldan, or Lovitz made any impact in the that game. So going into the next friendly, imwould have thought finding some more depth would be a positive. Morales play in that game did exactly that and that is why he was such a bright spot in the game.

    Of course, there was no reason for him to get suckered by the feint towards the middle of the play. His main responsibility is to make sure he keeps that attacker in front of him. It is something to keep in mind while he is given more opportunities. Does it become something that happens regularly or is it just one bad play.

    As for the nonsense of if it were someone else, are you really comparing a player making a mistake in his first game to ones that have repeatedly done so over years? Given you judge players so harshly for mistakes, how do rate Trapp and Long in that game? These are your repeat offenders who coaches have pushed on us and fans think is a clear starter.
     
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  2. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m ok with Morales as long as we understand what he is and is not. I kind of see him as a lesser McKennie except in experience. A career sub 70% passer. He is an energy guy that you look to cut out passes, make a tackle, win a header, etc. Having McKennie and him in midfield at same time doesn’t excite me but we are where we are.
     
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  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #3128 juvechelsea, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-06-us-mens-national-team-vs-mexico/recap

    The poster is right just not about the number of the goal. I remembered the same thing. On goal 3 against Mexico Morales is in position to jockey/foul/hold the attacker. He is instead juked out of his shorts and the break leading to the goal is on.

    This is one reason I am not pro-Morales. Is for all that energy and fight -- which we miss -- he got burned and we gave up even more goals to Mexico the night he started. Like is being said, his job is foul or keep the play in front of him to give himself a chance and the team time to get back.

    Morales then also had a nightmare passing. I might one hand other hand that if he stops every counter and we win 1-0. I am practical. But we lost 3-0. And that is the worst outcome of the 3 chances recently at them. I don't know why I'd pick that to platform off of.

    You can make fun of me for pointing out Brooks' mistakes.

    You can make fun of this guy for pointing out that in Morales' big re-opening he got burned on a goal.

    Facts remain facts.

    The pro-posts kind of dwindle down to Mexico being good so it's OK. Or that mistakes made by big league players are excusable because we assume they are better than any other option. Neither is acceptable.
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #3129 juvechelsea, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    When the US played CR and lost 4-0 in 2016, they started Brooks Chandler FJ. If this was as simple as phone calls to the Bundesliga players (on a superiority assumption) we've already tried that and it actually didn't work. Was actually as bad as we have looked in decades in a game that counted.

    So if Morales gets burned I am not assuming that's as good as we can do. Nor am I making the reverse snob assumption MLS is better. I am seeking a middle way where success is rewarded and playing like crap punished. Once you have a practical nightmare all the cute theory goes out the window.

    You're kind of in the neighborhood of how to analyze it asking the "is someone better" question, you just ask it only rhetorically -- want to assume the answer and not do any searching. Classic internet game of what's your better alternative which 99% of the time is used to promote a dumb idea. Any name we propose is hurt, inferior, or otherwise unsatisfactory even if I just watched them play as bad as possible. I watch CR 2016 or Mexico Sept 2019 and am like probably most of the pool could do better than that.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    nobody is disputing that morales made a mistake.

    I think your posting on brooks is idiotic just like this guys on morales. why arent you guys going on and on about all the goals Long has been involved in this year and this game?

    as usual, it doesnt appear you have read other posts and just m0aking stuff up.
     
  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    you are ignoring the most egregious defender in that game.

    Morales showed better in that game than the MLS guys did all year. I definitely want better, but dont know who that is outside possibly Holmes.

    it is odd how you quit on a player with just one game and seem to ignore the nightmares of many players.
     
  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    The flaw in the snob logic is they start off admitting we lack the elite player in the top leagues that stands above everyone else. If we have a player in those leagues, they are then by definition just a rank and file guy there. Which to me begins to blend on a Venn with the Best of MLS and Elsewhere. They then want to revivify their first argument they just admitted was false, that we don't have the top notch type players, by pretending like anyone in those leagues is still above us. It's basically a re-definition game. The first argument doesn't apply to us ("elite players") so they try to patch it with "elite league player," which is not the same. Flaw being that "elite player" is earned by, say, scoring 20 goals in a league most can't even get a job in. Where "elite league player" is an assumption of quality trying to paint a whole league with that elite player brush. That is not earned. If you aren't the guy scoring 20 in the Bundesliga then it's not obvious.

    They also tend to ignore that -- give or take GB-style brain farts -- a smart NT with an OK domestic league is usually composed of the best domestic players plus more varied participants abroad. So it's not how does a bad or average MLS player compare, or how does MLS as a whole compare, but rather how does the elite of MLS compare to a range of levels within other leagues. The elite of MLS could be -- and often soon will be -- hacking Europe. Conversely, we might be interested in a US expeditionary player who is average or perhaps even below average for their league. So it may be more like how does a mediocre or bad B.1 mid or back compare to a good MLS back. This is not so obvious.

    Now, we won't have this problem if we ever produce the world class player, except circle back to where this post started. And you are already starting to see with "Dest vs Yedlin" that if we get more than one player abroad at a position the snob theories lose all traction. Snob vs snob cancels. You then have to actually watch.
     
  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Oh dear god. You have this backwards. The deal is I can watch more than one person. Bradley was not the only one having a bad day. I saw the others responsible. Bradley's bad day doesn't give the others a pass. The idea is not drop Bradley and leave all the other pieces in place and give them umpteen more eff-up chances. The idea is clean up all messes at once.

    So, Dest got megged and Morales got juked. Trying to find the right XI for quali involves coming to terms with those as well.
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    so you start the post admitting my assertion and end it saying i am fictionalizing

    pick one and i will argue with that person
     
  10. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont have anything backwards. The game reinforced the weaknesses of Long and Trapp that we saw all year, but you are focused on two guys with their first game with the team. No idea what you are saying about Bradley as he didnt play in this game. Maybe you arent able to view as much in a game as you think.

    One game. Yeah, let's move on from a 20 yo because of one play. Sounds pretty stupid when you veterans who repeatedly make mistakes.
     
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  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    long makes his mistakes, i admit as much, and have basically said he's keeping the seat warm for someone "cleaner."

    however, objectivity and relative assessment must be maintained.

    long has 17 caps in 2 years. in those games we won 10 times (more than half), he scored 3 goals and had 1 assist, and we allowed 15 goals. 9 shutouts, more than half his games. that is <1 GAA. only 3 times in those 17 games did we allow more than 1 goal. those few outings correlate to the only "nightmares" you can identify.

    brooks has 5 caps in the past 2 years. in those games we won 2 and lost 3 (less than half). he hasn't scored a goal since 2016, has 3 goals for his career, and hasn't been credited with an assist. of those 5 games there was 1 shutout, and we allowed 10 goals. that = 2 GAA. in 60% of his games the last 2 years we allowed 2 or more goals. you end up hunting for the exceptions rather than proving a rule.

    you're pretending like i am confused but what i have done is pulled back from your anecdotal memories to the broader averages.

    snobs don't like to head this direction because it starts undermining claims about people who play for wolfsburg and newcastle, and sometimes makes people at Hull or NYRB look better. they'd rather talk about, "but that one time long got run by......" which if we go back to the numbers is exceptional. they then want to pretend a brooks bad day isn't basically the rule. i can line up 8 games and career stats and they'll act like that's anecdotal.
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Your reading comprehension is worse than your long posts about gibberish.

    Those two comments are about different things and very much consistent.
    This is where you mischaracterize people's arguments and make stuff up.

    Let me restate for you. The mistake was bad. He showed enough the rest of the night to get more looks and see if he can clean up his game. If the mistakes continue then they need to be held against his selection. Nobody assumes he is better than any other option. He looked better in this game than Trapp and 4oldan have all year. He is easily ahead of those guys at this point.
     
  13. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Every single player on the US team, actually every single player in world soccer at every level has gotten beaten, has made mistakes. It is just really weird how people focus on a single bad play or a single game and act like it is the end all be all of player evaluation. See, mistake, they suck. Every player makes mistakes. Think Long has never been nutmegged? Think again. Think Morales is the only midfielder to get burned in the open field? Think again. Far better players than anyone on the US team have made similar mistakes. It's not about catching a player making a mistake or having a poor game. Yes, you want to pick the ones who making less mistakes or who have fewer poor games. But, just finding a player making a single mistake or having an occasional poor game and thinking that proves everything is bizarre as you can find mistakes made by every single player in the world. Nothing is proven because someone identifies a handful of mistakes by a player, especially if the other options are just as prone or more prone to making them.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He was involved in two goals on the night and picked up needless yellow card at the half. His two mistakes were mental and shows his lack of ability to read the game. They are just simple, basic defending. He has no business warning the seat. He isnt up to this level.

    All those stats are nonsense. Long has racked up all those good numbers playing small concacaf teams.

    They both have made their fair share of mistakes. The issue is that the guy who plays for Wolfsburg brings a lot more than just defending.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #3140 juvechelsea, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    similarly, reggie cannon played 10 games in 2018-19, 6 wins, 5 shutouts, 2 assists, 8 goals allowed. <1 GAA. only losses to italy and mexico. none of them his fault.

    i instead get to hear about the inevitability of

    dest, 3 games, 1 win, no shutouts, 1 assist, 5 goals allowed. 1.67 GAA. gave up loser goal to mexico getting megged.
    or
    yedlin, 5 games, 3 wins, 2 shutouts, 0 assists, 4 goals allowed. <1 GAA. gave up equalizer to chile and loser goal to canada, both backdoor.

    if you put this in front of a snob they'd run it exactly backwards of what the numbers tell you, dest, yedlin, cannon. cannon was YNT just a few years ago in the same pipeline, came from the same academy as richards and mckennie, and could be in europe with a finger snap.

    the snob argument is the elite league guys give you your best chance at winning except that's a half a$$ proxy for actual wins, losses, and goals allowed, which they tend to ignore. if brazil england etc. clobber us, that's just inevitable, except i thought the whole reason i was using guy x was he was my best chance ie can actually once in a while steal me that surprise. for that theory to ring true i need the odd upset to even pretend.
     
  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think Brooks history of mistakes is concerning, but unfortunately, he is the best all round central defender we have. I also find Long's history of mistakes of mistakes , but nobody is going on about them like they are Brooks. The issue I have with Long is that in addition to the mistakes is that he is so poor on the ball which should be a very important criteria given how Berhalter is trying to play.
     
  17. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Yeah, I'd be quite happy about Long if he had any skill on the ball. I am not surprised he never got more than a low ball offer from Europe. Skill is much more a requirement over there and not optional like it often is in the US. I think he works for the US because most of our center back lack quickness and we need at least one guy who can keep up back there.
     
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  18. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    By the way, all those stats are meaningless without knowing the opponents. We can run out damn near anyone and shut out Cuba.
     
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  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You have no idea how to use stats. Random thoughts on this post.

    - Dest will be, if not already, the best player of this group.
    - it was Long who didnt pick the guy up on the back post against Canada
    - why isnt Cannon snapping his fingers. I guess he is happy making $80K
     
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  20. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    This idea that you measure individual players based on the US goals against average when they are on the field is the weirdest "analysis" I've ever seen on this board.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This is why it is so egregious that Alvarafo hasnt gotten a look. Similar aged athlete with much more experience and much better on the ball.
     
  22. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Especially if we want to play out of the back. For a system that emphasizes playing out of the back, getting Alvarado into the squad should be a high priority. Asking Long to pass through a press is extremely risky.
     
  23. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    I’m a fan of soccer. I don’t care what league it is. MLS is just one of many leagues I watch teams from. Orlando City is my home team, so yeah I’m partial to them. They have zero representation to the Nats unless you want to call Dwyer a Nats player(I don’t). I also don’t hate on players from any particular league. My issues with Morales are with him because of what I’ve seen from him. I see his yellow card as a red flag. If you retaliate when we are away in C. America that can easily be a red. I just prefer smarter players that understand how opponents are trying to sucker you in. There’s plenty of ways to send messages in a smart, sneaky way that doesn’t get you booked. Why you are trying to make this into a MLS thing is beyond me.

    I’m glad you were able to accept his fault on the breakaway. Honest opinions on his play can help further conversations on his play. I have said I’d like to see him get more time. Soccer is a game of mistakes, and if he can fix his mistakes, he could be an important player for us. I did get to watch him live when he got minutes in our LON game with Canada here in Orlando. He did fine in that game. Nothing special, but also nothing problematic either.
     
  24. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Yeah, that's one thing I never understand. How some players get continuous chances to play better and eliminate mistakes, but some others make one mistake in a US shirt and are deemed not good enough (despite, in this case, being a pretty solid Bundesliga squad player).

    I think most are in agreement that Morales deserves more chances. I don't think many assume he's a starter or a real game changer, but that he could just be a valuable spot starter/depth piece, in the mix in our central midfield. Instead, we'll likely get more combinations of Yeuill, Trapp, and Bradley again when healthy.
     
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  25. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    That wasn’t the point. People were claiming he was one of the few bright spots in that game; closing their eyes to fact he got suckered into an early yellow card and the mistake that lead to a goal. I made a mistake remembering which goal it was, saying it was the 2nd when it was the third. But those facts are still their. All I ask is that we honestly rate games for a player no matter what league they are from.
     

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