Youth Yanks Abroad, ‘01-‘04 YOBs (and younger): 2019/20 Thread

I agree that FCD hasn't historically handled things in an ideal way, even if they have been ahead of most MLS clubs. From a recruiting perspective, it is definitely helpful to have a track record of selling players to Euro clubs, which FCD has not done. Really only NYRB has significant credibility in this department right now.

That being said, what's done is done and the past can't be changed. In this moment, what can FCD do with guys like Gomez, Carrera, Bonilla, Tessmann, et al other than to offer them USL deals?

I know Cannon wasn't sold this winter. Was there an opportunity to do so? It takes two to tango and there weren't reports of serious offers being received and rejected. The only reports I could find of a concrete offer for Cannon came last year, and that from the ever-unreliable Roger Gonzalez. Other journalists refuted these reports.

Euro clubs are more likely to buy in the summer, so we'll see what happens with Cannon. But for now, I don't get the criticism of the USL offers. I know it's not ideal for the player, but what else is FCD supposed to do, now, in winter 2020?

 

This makes sense.

 

It is a tough needle to thread.

You have to make money on the academy be it in sales or contributions to the first team to be worth continuing operations.

You have MLS restrictions making it harder to capitalize on one end and you have cultural issues around college and signing young players to professionals deals on the other. Not like lots of prospects in the caliber that we are producing from Europe don’t sign for $25K a year as 15-16 year olds.

Also to be worth investing $100K+ on a USL deal for a 16-17 year old the player needs to be elite of elite. Hard to be in on a number of kid for $500K a piece in overall compensation over 2-3 years and try to make a profit.

 

I think the #1 problem with Dallas is that they look like yet another club that doesn’t want to sell players. How Cannon is still at FC Dallas now is ridiculous. They offered big extensions to Pomykal and Ferreira that’ll keep them at the club long-term. Gonzalez had European offers, but chose to take the big money from Dallas. The players need to take some responsibility, but the club has the wrong mindset if they think keeping ahold of these players instead of getting a profit for them should be their aim.

I think an important part of this exodus from Dallas is that the players now see that the club talks a big game, but doesn’t care about the long-term future of these players.

There are definitely problems that have been outlined about the number of players team can sign and for how much, but the club needs to take some responsibility. If they want to be able to sign players such as Gomez and Carrera, they need to prove to them that they will only spend 2-3 years at the club and then they’ll be sold onto Europe. MLS has shown that it won’t sell young Americans when they are ready to leave.

If FC Dallas wants to be a more appealing option to the top young players than other teams in the league, they need to show these players with results. Playing young players is not enough. MLS playing time is only the first step in the master career plan for all of these young players that MLS teams sign.

 

Your expectation would have been impossible to meet before now. Let's hope that they are in the process of alleviating your concerns, but they have not had opportunities to sell players to Europe after 2-3 years with the club.

They will get there relatively soon with Pomykal. Hopefully they get a good offer for Cannon this summer. They let Richards go. That process has not gotten far enough to reach any conclusions for the rest, however. How can we say that they won't sell to Europe when they haven't had that opportunity yet. Pomykal's extension was more about getting fair market value than keeping him long term, in my opinion.

 

I look at this situation a bit differently. In any business, you have to look after the best interest of the party you represent, be it the club (league) or the player. I don't think I can fault the players in these situations but I also find it difficult to fault the club. That said, if there is any blame to be laid, it is with the club and league. Ultimately, it all comes down to choices.

Let's use FCD as an example, since we seem to bring them up in just about every thread involving youth. Yes, MLS has some pretty stupid roster rules to stay within, but they know what those rules are and how they have to fit players into the roster restrictions.

I think they got in an arms race to sign HG players, but the issue is, it turned out to be an arms race against themselves. I think their lack of success on the field is what led them to wanting to become the worlds leader in HG signings. Couple that with a city that always produces players and an Academy system that is extremely successful, this day was always going to come.

If you are Tessman, Carerra, Gomez, Letayf or any of the other prospects that are not signed and possibly leaving the club, you and your agent have to compare yourself to the current HG signings. If you think you are a better player and are offered a deal that doesn't reflect that financially, you really have no choice but to move on. I think where FCD messed up is offering HG deals to the likes of Reynolds, Roberts and possibly Cerrillo. Here is where the choice part comes in. If they couldn't look at the Academy and know they had a handful of future pros that just weren't ready, they made a choice to sign other kids to HG's instead of seeing how it played out. If an when the time came to really want to sign Tessman, they didn't feel strongly enough to try and move (via trade or transfer) any other player to make room for him. In his mind, they rate the other kids more. I'm not that bothered by Carerra because I don't think he is that good, but if I worked for FCD I would much rather have Tessman and Gomez in my team that Roberts or Reynolds. That isn't a slight on those kids as players, they will both be decent pros, I just think the other two have better futures.

As a club, any MLS club, you can't be afraid to lose kids and you can't be afraid to admit you got it wrong when it comes to player evaluations. Is there a solution, I don't know, but I wouldn't see the harm in leaving 3 HG slots open, especially when you have the amount of talent coming through they do.

For me, its all about choices and they have made the wrong ones at times. There is also a bit of naivety around how the transfer market works on the world stage. MLS started as a league in which Americans can pursue their dream of playing professional soccer, no matter how little money they made. They have not quite moved on from that mindset completely and are in a situation where they can't compete financially for the truly top prospects at 18 if there is any desire to move to Europe.

This is a business of hard decisions and I just feel they are afraid to make them. No one wants to get rid of a HG kid, especially if he's been with the club for 10 years. But you have to be willing to in order to make way for better talent that comes through the pipeline.

 

I think the, "no offers" is a cop out. If FCD shopped him they would find a buyer no problem. Cannon is a USMNT right back who is still young. Joe Skally was sold for $2.5MM recently.

 

Again, this is silly. If they wanted to sell Kellyn Acosta or Pomykal or Cannon, they could have done so. Just because there were no public offers doesn't mean it couldn't be done. Public offers are not how things are done usually.

I didn't hear of any concrete offers for Jadon Sancho this window. Do you really think there would be no interest if Dortmund wanted to sell him?

Where were the public offers for Adams or Scally? The was a rumor on the first, but nothing public. There is no FIFA transfer exchange where bids are posted. Deals are worked out between clubs.

If FCD told Cannon's agent to look for a deal he or she would have been able to find one in an hour.

 

I agree with you about public offers not really telling the story. However, let's look at these situations:

Acosta - FCD might have screwed that up. Maybe the offers they got were simply not good enough for them, though. You can't blame a club for not biting on low ball offers.
Cannon - this summer would be a great time to sell him. That is the primary window for Europe, and it allows FCD to break in some other players and prepare for his departure. If Cannon is not sold this summer, that is the point I think we can being to ask if there are institutional issues regarding selling players at FCD.
Pomykal - I don't blame FCD for thinking that it's not time to sell him yet. They very well might hold on to him for a window or two longer than I would like to see, but I think selling after another full season is the right time. Hopefully he continues on his trajectory and stays healthy.

Things has evolved a ton since Acosta's case. We can hope that they learned something from that situation. Cannon's time in Dallas should be just about up. Pomykal should have another year or two, tops. We'll see how it actually unfolds, but there isn't nearly enough evidence to say that FCD is refusing to sell players when they should be.

 

I'm not buying that summer is the right time for MLS to sell - it rarely happens in the middle of a season.

 

this makes a lot of sense to me. ive long thought a big part of the problem is the prime time for mls to sell is not the prime time for europe to buy and vice versa

 

don't worry. come the summer, we'll hear,"he'll be transferred in the winter market!"

 

I think that is an excellent analysis of each individual situation. They are all kind of going along types of decisions though. Should we sell Cannon this window? Nah, maybe wait one more. There doesn't seem to be a strategy and the fall out is that the pipeline is clogged and they are losing talent.

For USMNT fans, this wouldn't be as big a deal except: we need players to move from MLS to higher competition, the players in the back of the line can't go to another MLS team that has space for them.

If Tessman is a big prospect, and he goes to Clemson instead of signing with FCD and didn't want to go to Europe at 18, that is a loss for the USMNT. The fact he can't sign with Houston or another MLS team is the problem with the MLS system of non-competitiveness they have set up for themselves.

And yes, "they will get rid of HG territories soon". But, no they won't.

 

I agree, but there's a chance that Cannon is out of luck with interest in this transfer window. I doubt it, but it's possible. What I find most egregious is how FC Dallas is extending the contracts of these players. That shows an effort to keep them. There should be no effort on the part of Dallas to do that, if the club wants the players to become as good as possible. If they can't be sold within the ending of their initial contract, they should be made to find a new club. It'd then be a lot easier for these players to move to Europe.

They might end up not doing so and I understand why it's not in the interest of FC Dallas to ever let their contracts run down, but if these teams made it a priority to be the top selling club in the USA, they'd have an easier time keeping these players around. Does a team not get credit for developing a player if they don't sell them? Of course they get credit. Sometimes, perception is more important than a small amount of money. It will help them get larger fees for the best players they develop, if they can be viewed as a pro-player.

 

You may be right: nothing about changes to HG territories in the CBA announcement.

 

Normally I'd agree with you but I think in Cannon's place they'll have options. FCD is going to get a chance to test drive Hollingshead and Reynolds while Cannon is hopefully gone during Olympic qualifying. If they prove up to it because Nelson can lock down the LB, then it's easy to sell in the summer because they've already got an in house replacement who knows the system. His repeated hints about wanting to test himself abroad are well known. This is going to happen. The question in my mind is what's an acceptable offer to FCD? 2m seems low. 5m seems kinda high for a FB in MLS. 3-4m with a sell on fee would hopefully please everyone.

 

let’s hope you’re right and @Excellency is wrong wrt Cannon. He’s looking pretty legit right now.....

 

'01 US-born mid/fullback signs pro deal with Nottingham Forest, who are currently 4th in the Championship.

✍️ Welcome Adrian!#NFFC are delighted to welcome Adrian Galliani to the club’s Under-23 side.

Galliani will link up with the Forest Academy, having penned his first professional contract, which will see him in the Garibaldi until the end of the 2020-21 season. pic.twitter.com/nY2bXFZeo6

— Nottingham Forest Academy (@NFFCAcademy) February 6, 2020

 

I'm a little worried about the lack of mention of HG rules in the new CBA. I'm not sure what that means. Are these rules that have to be negotiated and addressed in a CBA? Maybe they are planning to address HG rules when they address the U22 initiative or in another forum.....

 

quite frankly, I was shocked that it was under consideration as the owners clearly want as many obstacles to competition for talent as possible (is, delaying free agency, etc) as that gives the teams far better negotiating leverage.

here is an area where I wish the USSF would exert hard pressure to its partner to allow more freedom of movement for prospects.

 

This is the grandson of the man who pulled the funding from AC Milan.

 

Very true. I'm just continously shocked that people overlook what FCD does and just keep asserting, "next window they will sell him as he needs to go to Europe." It is abundantly clear that they will not be selling these players. Clear to me, clear to you, clear to the kids in their academy who are looking for opportunity elsewhere.

Ferreira and Pomykal were signed to 4 and 5 year deals. A 2 year deal or a one year deal with an option would be fine if they idea was another year and sell them.

I'm not picking on FCD because I hate them. They are doing better than almost the entire league in developing players. But they are missing the critical piece of the puzzle for the future of the USMNT. Even if they don't care, I think Hunt does care about the USMNT in abstract, it is now affecting their model. In other words, their model won't work if they don't sell and if they sold, it would be so much better for the USMNT.

 

Is there a mod that can move the youth transfer talk to a different thread? There is much I would like to say, but we are already on the verge of overrunning this particular thread with something that is off topic.

 

I think there is a lot of misconceptions about transfers in this thread. Not that anyone is wrong, but it seems that there are vastly different thoughts on how the transfer market works and why clubs sell players.

If you truly break it down, there are a limited amount of reasons clubs sell players.

• A club in financial problems that needs capital
• A player that has a rewarding market value AND the club has a player just as good or better waiting in the wings
• A player who has a contract nearing the end and a new contract can't be agreed upon - risking the player leaving on a free if he is willing to wait the current contract out.
• A player is such a hassle that a reduce fee is worth getting rid of him

I won't throw out percentages, because I don't know them, but I would guess 90% of transfers fall under one of these reasons.

I realize Garber got on the podium and stated "we need to become a selling league", but I don't think that happens just because someone says. If we look at MLS and apply the league and specific player situations to the transfer situations above, they rarely fit. With a single entity structure, no team will ever face a decision to sell a player in order to meet next months payroll. As for the second reason, we just haven't seen this come up very often. I expect this to be the main reason for transfers in MLS down the road. The third reason, although possible in MLS, won't happen as often due to a) club option years that are often part of MLS contracts and b) the relatively low salary paid to American players early in their career.

To be clear, I can't think of more than a handful examples (worldwide) of clubs selling players just to be nice and because the player wants to move. There is rational reasoning for most transfers around the world that simply don't apply to MLS. Lower level leagues sell players to higher level leagues because it is a financial windfall they just can't pass up. Often times the fee will cover years of operational expenses. This also applies to huge money transfers for young players. Monaco didn't want to sell Mbappe, but the $145M offer forced their hand as they are never going to pass up that amount of money. Brazilian clubs can't afford to pass up $40M-$60M transfer fees either.

If I am not mistaken, the largest ever transfer fee paid for an American player playing in the MLS was Jozy Altidores $6.5M fee from NYRB to Villareal. That was over 10 years ago. Part of the current issue is MLS vastly overvalues their players. They see the amount of money spent around the world and want to be a part of it, but haven't had the history to be a true player in the market. Yes, there will always be exceptions. Another issue is, the big European clubs that pay big transfer fees are beginning to move away from the 22-26 year old purchases and are looking more in the 18-21 year old range. Surely, everyone has noticed we have a ton more 18-20 year olds moving to Europe than we do older players. Part of this is due to MLS not abiding by TC/SP rules in the past, but the other part is simply the age in which these clubs desire players.

To speak on a couple of specific examples, we can stick to the ever present FCD. Why in the world would FCD ever sell Reggie Cannon? He has established himself as one of the best American RB's, plays nearly every minute for his club, is on a $82k/year wage and the club has no one behind him that is approaching his level. No club is going to sell a player in that situation, even if they can get $2M-$3M for him. They will continue to activate his option until they can't any longer, or until Reggie and his agent make it very clear to the club that he is 100% leaving when his deal runs out. Even in that case, the club is getting a full International at $82k/yr, which is essentially the same gain as them selling him for a couple of million. As much as I like the player, I don't think his market value is much above $5M. The fact he hasn't been sold yet tells me a)FCD thinks he's worth much more than the offers they have received or b)there is more value to the club to have him finish out his contract at $82k than selling him for less than their valuation.

The other misconception I see being discussed is people think clubs are actively talking to other clubs about buying their players. This simple doesn't happen very often unless one of the 3 criteria above are in play. Transfers are 9 times out of 10 initiated by the player and the players agent, not the club.

Ask yourself, why would FCD have any desire to sell Pomykal at the moment? There is no logical reason for them to sell an important part of their team. Sure, if some club inquired about him and was willing to pay tens of millions, I am sure they would listen and eventually sell, but outside of that, there is no pressing reason to sell the player. If they had an intention to move him, they could have just activated his option and not give him a $600k raise. No club is going to sell a player just to be nice. It has to make sense financially and competitively.

A MLS club has one job, to compete for trophies. If selling a player gives them the financial means to get closer to winning a trophy, they will do it. If not, they aren't going to do so just to be nice. With a season that is essentially meaningless in the MLS and all the focus on winning the playoffs, these MLS teams will be reluctant to sell a key player. After all, that player only has to help them win 6 or 7 games at the end of the season to win a trophy.

I stated in another thread that the perception of American players is starting to get better around the world. Players like Llanez, Mendez, Richards, Miazga and others being successful and making it into solid first team players will have a much greater effect on American market values than Pomykal's or other American players performances on a MLS field will. That said, I am still worried that the desire to buy 22+ year old Americans is nowhere near the desire to bring over 18 year old Americans. Our league, while getting better is still viewed as not being at a very high level. We will be more successful in the transfer market by separating the perception of American players from MLS players. European clubs, especially in Germany value the hard working, willing to learn mentality, and view that as distinctly an American traits way before they view them as MLS traits.

What happens in the future with American players on the transfer market, specifically being sold, will have much more to do with the player and the players agent than it will have to do with MLS desiring to be a selling league. These players need to make in known, publicly, that they desire a move abroad at some point. They need to make it known by not signing contracts that give the clubs all the leverage in a potential transfer. I am not advocating sitting out matches and training, they do have a contract to adhere to. I do advocate them using things like release clauses and shorter terms, while still getting the wage they want.

There are many other reasons that make it difficult for MLS to snap their fingers and become a selling league. I won't go into each one individually, but things like the league keeping a percentage of fees, MLS schedule and not matching up with the transfer window around the world (especially the summer), lack of success for the USMNT, lack of pressure put on players with no pro/rel, and many others all make it more restrictive to be a "selling league."

The door will eventually be opened, but it will happen because of the success of the young Americans that are already in Europe and not because some 22 year old is playing well in MLS.

 

I created a new thread for this discussion. Let's take this over to that thread and not keep bringing this one off topic.