News: Conference alignment & schedule parameters announced

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by JasonMa, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    Nebraska and Colorado was one of the defining rivalries of the old Big 8 for almost 50 years before the Big 12 frankenstein came along. *That* is why that is a game people wanted tickets for.

    That's a totally paradigmatic example of what I'm talking about. Familiarity breeding contempt, blood feuds, regional supremacy.

    There is a national championship in college football. Both Nebraska and Colorado won national championships in the 90's (though Colorado lost to the mighty Illini on the way there thank you very much). But the Big 8 title was a gigantic, deeply meaningful thing to fight for as well. Just winning the Nebraska-Colorado game was a season-defining event. Not so much even about winning the game, but establishing dominance, crushing your rival, beat them on the field, beat them in recruiting, open a gap they'll never recover from.

    College football has always been my favorite sport, and that's exactly why. Games all year, all over the country replete with so much narrative, so much passion, so many hopes and dreams that it's honestly ridiculous to have them decided over 60 minutes of football, but decided they are.

    The NFL is so hollow once you've gotten turned onto that.
     
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  2. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What I mean, what I am getting at is the match up between Colorado and Nebraska does indeed have teeth. More like dentures however as this rivalry goes not back to Big XII days but before that in the old Big 8! There used to be a time when there was the Southwest Conference. The SWC which was all the big schools in Texas plus Arkansas. This lasted until SMU got the death sentence for paying its players, University of Texas was trash and at a low point, and Arkansas jumped to the SEC in 1990. All this lead to the downfall of the SWC. However, the Big 8 with OU, Nebraska and Colorado all killing the college gridiron scene in the 80's came to the rescue and said they would be willing to add 4 new schools. This occurred in 1996.
    Fast forward to recently when these same Big XII schools have wanted more TV money and some have torn their allegiances to each other up and left, Colorado and Nebraska being the first two to jump ship. So yes! Hot ticket, this season! Hahaha! The Buffs hosting the Cornhuskers is a rivalry that is older than dirt partner!

    This type of talk will be how current MLS fans and supporters will talk in years to come about old rivalries. Teams that used to be a regular visitor to the house. But now, folks have to ask about them.
     
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  3. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree 100%.
    College gridiron and the beautiful game. Bucket full of ice cold beers n your buddies that enjoy them all likewise. Walking into the stadium on game day. Knowing what is to been witnessed down on the field.
    Heaven on Earth!
     
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  4. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that, generally speaking, fans typically won't care they missed x,y, and z from the other conference when considering their schedule in isolation. But they certainly will care if the teams they miss are 10th, 11th, and 12th best in the other division when a competitor for a playoff spot missed 1, 2, and 3.
     
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  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #180 superdave, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
    1. Many teams that end up in the Europa League don’t care about the Europa League.
    2. Your basic point is, not wrong exactly, but exaggerated. There really are a number of meaningless games.
    3. To me, it is obvious that the point of a competition is to win it. If you disagree, I’d be willing to read your argument. But if you agree with my argument, very soon every game in England is going to be meaningless because Liverpool will have an unassailable lead. Saying that qualifying for the CL or EL or avoiding relegation creates meaningful games is an admission that the league itself doesn’t.
     
  6. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    1. True no doubt. But some really do. Not translatable to MLS either way
    2. There are meaningless games in an EPL-like system. But there are way way way way more in the big four.
    3. I do disagree. I don’t really know how to articulate why, other than to just make reference to how passionate and awesome relegation battle or top four battle games are.

    An example I have closer at hand is in college football. I was lucky enough to be at Illinois’ upset victory over Michigan State for our 6th win, clinching a bowl game and saving Lovie Smith’s job. Neither team had any chance to win a Big Ten championship, let alone a national championship, but it would be wrong to say that game was so compelling just because it was an amazing game in a vacuum (which it was). It was the colossal concrete stakes of it that made it something more.

    There will be claims and lip service of Bears-Packers having that same sort of elevated aspect tomorrow. It’s fake, it’s a lie. “Rivalries” in competitions where you’re heavily punished for winning and heavily rewarded for losing are a fraud.
     
  7. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    Having said all of that, there is a negative cost to a runaway title winner in an EPL-type system. That’s undeniable. The good outweighs the bad IMO, but that’s an arguable point.

    I’d be hesitant to get rid of playoffs entirely in MLS. There’s probably a sweet spot there somewhere.
     
  8. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MSU v Illinois was colossal? LMAO, you might be overselling that just a tad. I mean if going to the Redbox Bowl vs the Pinstripe Bowl qualifies as colossal that might say something about Illinois’ program. Frankly it does. Not one MSU fan I know gave a crap. Simply affirmed how garbage our team was this year and thousands of fans stayed home. The student section had about 5,000 people in it.

    Anyway, watched West Ham @ Southampton. Southampton NEEDED that game. There were thousands of empty seats and the game was pretty much shit. Both teams are in a relegation battle, but it sure as hell didn’t translate to the field. 1-0 snooze fest.

    Finally, to say that Bears-Pack is a fake rivalry is just insane. I get you have a hatred for the “big four”, but Bears-Pack is a fake rivalry? Come on.
     
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  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't agree with that. For teams from less competitive leagues it's a chance to show off against the big boys. for the big boys it's another way to qualify for the Champions League.

    For the Burnley and Wolves of the world it's a once in a generation, if not a once in a lifetime thing. Burnley went 52 seasons between appearances while Wolves last played in the Europa/UEFA Cup in 1980/81 (by 1986/87 both teams were in the Fourth Division/League Two).

    Manchester United attracted 65,773 to their final group game this season, despite already having qualified for the knockout stage.
     
  10. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    #185 Fighting Illini, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
    Oh we stink. But that a team that basically has no chance to ever win a national title can still inspire a passionate fan following speaks to the power of different kinds of structures.
     
  11. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Come on man. It ain’t that passionate. Your stadium was more than half empty for your home opener. You had 25,000 empty seats against Michigan. I grew up in Illinois. I know an awful lot of Illini alums. Illini football means almost nothing in that state and it doesn’t mean much more to Illini alums.
     
  12. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    To be fair, the Bears have done a great job of diminishing the rivalry on their own.
     
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  13. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You aren’t lying there. The Packers’ QBs have been just a skosh better the last two decades.
     
  14. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Bears fans don't like it when I tell them that they've been a lot more even in record to the Lions over the last decade than they have the Packers.
     
  15. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    But you're not going to know that until the end of the season. And then, that'll feel unlucky, and you'll hate the other team more for it, and move on. That possibility though is not a reason to split the league in two or anything like that. I still want to look at the Rapids schedule and see a variety of exciting opponents including Eastern teams.
     
  16. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As a fan I want to witness my team play each and every opponent in MLS Season after Season just to see how we will do against each and every team. Shocking I know.
    On the business side, the guarantee of playing everyone Season after Season is a tremendous sales and marketing point. It guarantees the last place team a chance to pick a fight with that Season in MLS best team. In such a defensive sport of soccer, the chances of upset of high. We know this and loves this of this low scoring sport, so the chance to beat said "best team" is there and can be sold to the media and greater public as a tremendous day out at the soccer stadium.
    Absolutely!
    With the way college gridiron is with a simple 12 game season and considering the blue bloods of the sport, the majority of Tier 1 Conference schools are not going to be in the short list of who will be making the playoffs Season after Season. However, their stadiums are to witnessed full or nearly full for the homes games and everyone that cares knows the National Title is not in the cards. This season and the next.
    For us at Texas Tech, we exist as the boogey man team that you don't want to play late on in the season and are perhaps undefeated, in the hunt for a trophy. We have a self deprecating saying, "We don't win National Championships, we just ruin your team's chances of."
     
  17. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #192 007Spartan, Dec 16, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
    Look, I like college football. With the exception of Rutgers, I’ve been to games @ every B1G campus to watch MSU play. I’ve also been to games at Alabama, Ole Miss, Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, FSU, Oregon, USC, Boise State, UCLA, ASU, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, and close to a dozen bowl games. College football is fun,
    tailgating is fun. Fight songs, marching bands, student sections, cheers that are decades old.... all sweet as hell.

    However, if you are going to hold college football up as some model for how MLS should function vs some “closed” big four league. The range of things you can/should model Is pretty narrow IMO.

    First of all, let’s just get this out of the way. College football is a sport where the top 25 teams alone generate 2.7 billion in revenue and 1.5 billion in profits for their schools (not to mention the free advertising). The top earning coaches are making more than $10 mln a year, coordinators routinely earn more than a million, and teams are spending hundreds of millions on facilities. Alabama just built a 30 mln dollar cafeteria. I shit you not....a cafeteria. LSU installed frigging sleep pods in their locker room. Why not, though, the top teams are now generating more than $200 mln in revenue and they don’t have to pay the actual players anything. Yep, other than a scholarship to school (where most are herded into meaningless degree programs so they stay eligible to make money for the school), those playing a sport that has a high risk of causing brain damage, don’t share in any of the revenue!

    However, there is also the have nots in this equation. The dozens of schools who lose money playing D1 football and have absolutely no chance of actually winning a championship. Seriously, take a look at the financials for a MAC or a Sunbelt school. They lose millions every year playing D1 sports. Where do they get that money? By charging their students fees!

    Competitively it isn’t much better. Since the playoffs were introduced, only 11 teams (less than 10% of D1) have even made it. Only 3 teams have won it. The PAC 12 (and thus the entire West Coast) has been shut out of the playoffs over 70% of the time.

    Oh, but bowl games! Outside of the Playoffs and NY6 Bowls, no one really cares. Why should they? When a sub .500 conference record and a couple preseason wins over patsies gets you in the postseason to play a game that is utterly meaningless to any championship, why should the average fan care. Nearly 80 teams now qualify for bowls. It’s basically just an excuse to go on vacation over the holidays for fans and a tourism money grab for the host sites. The vast majority of games don’t come close to selling out and you have top players now skipping them all together.

    Then let’s see.....you’ve got steroids, rampant illegal recruiting, academic fraud, nothing but one year scholarship guarantees for the players, wildly imbalanced schedules, and TV networks who own major pieces of the product and drive everything from recruiting and team rankings to schedules and playoff slots.

    Again, college football is fun. I like stepping back on campus for games every fall. However, it ain’t exactly a game for the proletariat any more. Pretty much the opposite, in fact. Sure, take a look @ it in terms of how to partner with and engage supporters and supporters sections. Maybe take some lessons on community engagement. Other than that college football is a more than century old beast that can’t be and really shouldn’t be replicated by a completely different professional sport that has less than a decade of history in most of the markets it occupies.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...-football-most-valuable-clemson-texas-am/amp/
     
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  18. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hear you.
    If you recall earlier in this thread, and a topic that is a constant critique from MLS avoiders in our nation, is when the big four leagues are discussed and in similar light the big five pro soccer leagues in Euroland, MLS is reported by these fans as some "inferior product". Which can be debated but what I reply with to these folks is well, there is NCAA college football and basketball that are inferior products as compared to the NFL and NBA, but that does not stop CBS Sports for purchasing the TV broadcast rights every 7 years for $1 Billion dollars. And that just for the NCAA tournament!
    I go on to remind these type of Americans that declare they like association football that obviously many Americans are A-OK with watching and caring very much for such an inferior product. Thus a sales point for Garber at MLS HQ and just us the ley people on the street or out at the sports bar, we can be very confident in MLS as is. We are the ones enjoying live soccer on our weekends and you are not for rather weak sauce reasons. Certainly excuses now that we all know that Season 25 is upon us soon. The Eurosnobs and Liga MX snobs, these invertebrates that don't have the backbone to support their local MLS team are now just painting themselves into a corner

    Again, I was going with game day atmosphere with the two, having a drum and band section as it relates to a Supporters Section for Americans to help understand that are new to the beautiful game and certainly the importance of a simple week to week schedule where the regular season is the playoffs in that very old school model that for the first 144 seasons. A mindset where Americans were deeply passionate about their teams in a league set up that had no playoffs but did reward Conference titles/trophies and Bowl Games which easily mimic Cup Finals. Simply put, take from our college gridiron scene and use it's enduring characteristics, and allow these to be a vehicle for pulling in new fans to the sport of pro soccer and MLS.
     
  19. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hear you, but much of that passion just can’t be easily replicated. One of the primary arguments I hear against paying college football and basketball players is that fans root for the name on the front, not the name on the back. In other words, that the players don’t really matter. It is about supporting your school. Some of that is crap. The players and performance on the field matters. However, there is an element of truth to it too. My fandom to MSU is primarily about the fact that I went to school there, spent 4 years of my life there. Games are as much about reconnecting with classmates and the memories as they are the game itself. Amplify that feeling across 500,000 plus alums.

    How do you replicate that feeling in Miami or Nashville? You really can’t. Hell, how do you replicate generations passing their fandom on to their children like you see in other leagues like the EPL or NFL? You really can’t.

    However, the demographics of soccer fans and lessons learned from other expansion sides can absolutely give you lessons on how to allow that passion to grow. The best way, IMO, to help create passion is to give fans a sense of ownership. The reason I am an MSU fan because I lived there, I studied there, I partied there, I graduated from there and I was a part of that student section. I have a sense of ownership. MLS teams, especially new ones have a unique opportunity to allow fans to start something special. To not just follow tradition, but to create them. To be a part of the bedrock and character of a club at the very beginning. Sure, creating a great facility in a favorable location is really important too. However, giving supporters a degree of control and creating a partnership can go a long way.

    That said, you also have to show some ambition too. I completely understand why MLS is structured the way it is. In my opinion, growing MLS into a truly national league and getting the kind of investment needed to make that happen would have been impossible without some cost controls and with some pro/rel model. However, to truly grow this league to where we all hope it gets means the on pitch product has to grow. Frankly, I think that is born out by some of the most successful teams in terms of engendering that passion. Atlanta, LAFC, Seattle, Portland, LAG, TFC, KC..... passionate fans, great atmospheres. Lots to be learned, but they are all in the top half of the league in terms of spending and most are in the top third. I don’t think that is a coincidence. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the opposite is generally true for bottom spenders. Even those like Dallas and NYRB who have had some competitive success.

    Finally, I like the playoffs. Sue me. I don’t think there is a perfect way make every game count. Not every game is going to matter as much as the next. That’s true whether you have a pro/rel balanced schedule league with Champions League and Europa spots on the line or one with a more teams, an unbalanced schedule and playoffs. There isn’t a magic bullet.

    However, one thing can’t be ignored, the US is different than Europe. Their leagues are based in far smaller countries with far fewer large metro areas and they have more established clubs. They also are, you know, a part of UEFA. As much as we want to dream about changes, those are things we can’t change. So, given the realities of our marketplace, my vote would be about a 32 team league, with playoffs. Shrug.

    I also think that international competition is really important and the one we got is the CCL. So let’s frigging win it. We need to be the dominant league in the CONCACAF region and ultimately the hemisphere. I don’t think we are that far from that and I think that will be a huge tipping point. Let’s get there. This CBA needs to make it possible for ambitious teams to get there.
     
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  20. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is no perfect format. But I do get a little frustrated when people talk about "meaningful" and "meaningless" games.

    We're talking about entertainment here. The idea that every single match has to "matter" in order to get any enjoyment out of it is a little stale.
     
  21. btharner

    btharner Member

    Jan 22, 2007
    Selinsgrove, Pa.
    Exactly, To me it doesn't matter if its Seattle-Portland or Cincinnati-Montreal, I tune out the rest of the world and all its aggravations and just settle in for roughly two hours of pure enjoyment.
     
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  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    36 teams.

    Group A

    Montreal
    Toronto
    New England
    New York City
    New York Red Bulls
    Philadelphia
    DC
    Columbus
    Cincinnati

    Group B
    Atlanta
    Charlotte
    Miami
    Orlando
    Nashville
    Austin
    Dallas
    Houston
    North Carolina or San Antonio or Tampa Bay etc*

    Group C
    Chicago
    Minnesota
    St Louis
    Kansas City
    Colorado
    Salt Lake
    Phoenix*
    Detroit*
    Indy*

    Group D

    Vancouver
    Seattle
    Portland
    Sacramento
    San Jose
    LAFC
    LA Galaxy
    San Diego*
    Las Vegas*

    *placeholders. it could be other teams.

    Example seasons:

    Season 1

    Apertura

    Group A plays Group A and Group B once - 17 fixtures.

    Clausura
    Group A plays Group A and Group C once - 17 fixtures.

    Season 2

    Apertura
    Group A plays Group A and Group B once - 17 fixtures.

    Clausura
    Group A plays Group A and Group D once - 17 fixtures.

    (This would work better with 40 teams).

    This guarantees that teams play group rivals home and away, coastal rivals at least once a year and other teams at least once every two years.

    Bonus points are given to the top teams in the Apertura ensuring that every match counts.

    This could also mean playing Fall and Spring seasons with Spring playoffs.
     
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  23. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    36 teams?

    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
  24. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    The "why" of an NASL style split season is something I've never been able to wrap my head around.
     
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  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It came from Mexico. In this case you'd be able to have an extended winter break, without losing momentum.
     
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