Post-match: San Jose Earthquakes - Philadelphia Union (Wednesday, 9/25) postgame thread [R]

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by Goodsport, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    If Vako had closed down the winger, the ball never gets crossed into the box in the first place. If he was giving 100 percent on the play, it's simply not good enough.
     
    chris thebassplayer repped this.
  2. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :) I didn’t try to hear what he was saying cuz every other word started with F, and many of the other words were referee. I was embarrassed for him because he sits right in front of us and we talk to him every game and he seems like a great guy, earnest fan.

    To be honest, i was so angry, I momentarily thought of throwing my water bottle onto the field, but successfully restrained myself because it probably would have hit our team... But I was glad other people did it.

    Also, i have charted many games at Avaya in order to practice assessing. I have NEVER seen so many referee errors. I wasn’t charting last night, but it felt like at least 6 errors. Normally I only see one error. AR1 (Nick Uranga) was particularly bad, he signaled offside inappropriately on 3 occasions when we were attacking his goal. I didn’t see him do that in 1H.
     
    RocktheCasbah4 repped this.
  3. dred

    dred Member+

    Nov 7, 2000
    Land of Champions
    So... you were expecting Vako to play defense? Not sure that's in his contract.
     
  4. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not sure what you mean by this. When the referee goes to the screen isn't it because the VAR officials feel the call is close enough to go either way and so give the referee the job of making the final decision? Torpedo could have still given a red card for DOGSO, he could have still awarded Eriksson's goal, and could have still awarded the penalty kick.
     
    mjlee22 repped this.
  5. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another thing I saw last night. At half-time as the players and refs were coming off the field, both Rios and Godoy went over to Toledo and briefly complained to him, one at a time. I always feel that is a bad thing to do, because complaining to a ref at HT usually ensures you will give up a PK in the 2H :rolleyes: .
     
  6. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    Thanks, I’m hoping to hear a yes or no, I think she’d really get a kick out of it, pun intended.
     
  7. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How did the AR inappropriately signal offside? On a couple occasions he kept his flag down until after "play" ended, and that is for the attacking team's benefit, so they don't make a wrong offside call on what could turn into a goal.
    And I agree with the offside call that involved Tommy, since he did initially act like he was going to engage the ball and that impacted the defenders marking on the play.
     
    sacrxy, Boysinblue and SeaJayBee repped this.
  8. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yes that’s true, the final decision is always up to the CR. But it will get reviewed during the week, so if the CR disagreed with the VAR and the VAR was deemed correct in PRO review, then the CR would suffer some consequence. Unless of course he is Marrufo or Stott, or I would think, even Toledo. So I was surprised that Toledo gave in the way he did.
     
  9. alexiskool1991

    alexiskool1991 Member+

    May 9, 2011
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Yes. But the AR on the near side on TV kept waiting until the ball was reached and played...then he’d call offsides. I think Hoesen had a run from about midfield (he was justly offsides), sprints about 40 yards to reach the ball. The AR also runs with him. Once Hoesen collects and plays it, then the flag goes up. That’s fine wasting and unnecessary running for both teams if his mind was already made.
     
  10. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Usually? Do you have any stats to back up that claim?
     
  11. alexiskool1991

    alexiskool1991 Member+

    May 9, 2011
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I think it was TT(?). And he does interfere with the play. He ends up bumping into the player who was going after the ball. It sucks but it was right.
     
  12. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, Tommy’s play is exactly one of the examples of an unnecessary offside call. He made it clear he was not going to be involved in play, and he had no contact with the ball. At that level of play, where you normally want contact, not just a possible obstructed view, the flag should have stayed down.

    I don’t remember the other offside flag I disagreed with, but I remember thinking that he signaled offside on a player who couldn’t have been involved in play. I don’t think I have the stomach to rewatch the game, so I’ll never remember now.

    The bit about the AR running all the way to the goal line before signaling offside also was a bit excessive, considering the offside occurred 5 yards from the halfway line. For the AR to do what he did effectively wasted time, he could have signaled it much earlier, and by Toledo’s reaction, I think he would have preferred that too.
     
  13. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course not. Empirical
     
  14. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, then you are saying the VAR crew has already made up its mind yes or no about the call/play before the ref even looks at the screen? If that's the case then the VAR must have "decided" the Fierro pull down was in fact a DOGSO and there should be a red card awarded. But, Torpedo then overruled the VAR crew.
    I believe in the EPL all VAR decisions are made at league headquarters and the ref is not asked to make a final decision.
     
  15. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, this is pretty much what Joe Dickerson has explained to us. The VAR will say “check complete”, which means that the call was good. Or the VAR can tell the CR that he needs to look at something, which implies the VAR sees a different angle on the call that could reverse it.

    And you are right, the EPL is handling VAR differently without the video reviews. That’s a different can of worms, now isn’t it...
     
  16. NedZ

    NedZ Member+

    May 19, 2001
    Los Gatos
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Espinoza has two red cards this year. We lost both games he missed. I can't prove it, but I believe we would have beaten Philly if he had played last night. I think he is the best, most dynamic difference-maker on the team, and I hope we can sign him for next season. However, I think he is responsible in great measure for the results of both of those games.

    And I'll add that it took Jackson's slip and fall to make one of the two Philadelphia goals last night. No matter what the VAR showed or how others played, it took that piece of just plain bad luck to actually defeat the Quakes.
     
    DotMPP, dred, SeaJayBee and 1 other person repped this.
  17. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait, now you are saying that the VAR are perhaps seeing something that "could" reverse it, not "should" reverse it, so how can the ref be post judged for being wrong if the VAR crew is not even sure?
     
  18. chris thebassplayer

    Feb 18, 2014
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Yeah,

    He's slipping back a bit with his tracking. He's off the boil and not playing the ball as quickly when he gets the second defender closing him. It was really poor last night...almost back to square one. He didn't have Espinoza on the other side to take attention away, but he played so slowly and it hurt our ball movement.
     
  19. SeaJayBee

    SeaJayBee Member

    Jun 23, 2008
    Saratoga
    Folks keep complaining about the "late" AR flags. They are NOT late. This is a by-product of VAR. This is happening wherever VAR is used.

    Assistant Referees are trained that, when VAR is in play, they are NOT to raise the flag at the typical point when they make an offside decision. That point is normally when the player in the offside position is "involved in the play". However, with VAR enabled, the AR is told to hold the flag unless it is very clearly offside. That way, if the call is close, the play is allowed to continue to resolution. If a goal is scored (as happened to us last night) the play can be reviewed and then the offside can be assessed (or not).

    If there is no goal and the opportunity is over, then the AR raises the flag. On a couple occasions, the AR was down near the corner flag when he raised his flag as that was when the opportunity fizzled. But if you were paying attention, you'll note that the restart was much further up field where the "involvement" and, therefore, the infringement, occurred.

    The only AR call I disputed was the one where Tommy was returning from an offside position with his hands in the air (to indicate he was not engaging in play) and walked past the ball. The AR decided to call the offside anyway presumably because, even though Tommy was indicating no involvement by his body language, the AR decided that he "gained an advantage by being in that position" which is one of the criteria used to determine "involvement" with offside. I would not have pulled the flag myself at the professional level because pros should be able to easily ignore Tommy. But I can understand the call even if I disagreed with it.
     
    NedZ repped this.
  20. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The first goal was on Vako, not bad luck.

    And, yes, Espinoza's absence was crucial. That does not obviate the oddly anti-San Jose officiating errors. For the whole season, nearly completed, we have at least as many PKs wrongly reversed by VAR (one), per Earthshaker the great conspiracy-skeptic, as we do actually awarded (the fewest in the league). That alone had a major impact on the game last night.
     
  21. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    I know Matias is kind of untouchable given this years performance over last year (although we’ve tanked hard in recent weeks) but I’m stuck on his last ejection, we were still in that game, it was 1-1, we need him to have a cool head in those situations, regardless. And Espinoza’s red everyone seems to agree was deserved and yes, that’s was kind of when the wheels came off. Having said that, I hope we see those guys back next year, the team has been much better and far more fun to watch overall, with them onboard.
     
    Boysinblue and SoccerMan94043 repped this.
  22. NedZ

    NedZ Member+

    May 19, 2001
    Los Gatos
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Espinoza's first yellow was the bonehead move which enabled the second yellow, and thus, the red.
     
  23. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    paging @davez if you could give me a yes or a no I’d appreciate it, going to be leaving soon for the Social Distortion show in Berkeley and it would be nice to make her day before I go.
     
  24. SeaJayBee

    SeaJayBee Member

    Jun 23, 2008
    Saratoga
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. One of the reasons I fell in love with the game, is that it is a relatively simple and elegant game with few rules. Referees are trained to appreciate the "Spirit of the Game" which is supposed to encourage game flow and fairness. It helps to remember that most of the rules we have today were written during the Victorian era for "Young gentlemen" attending elite English colleges.

    We have come a long way from there but I appreciate the concept that the game should flow and the referee (Law 5) is given lots of freedom to interpret the Laws to ensure fairness. As such, the human element, as expressed by the referee, is part of the game. He/she is SUPPOSED to use judgement and not micrometers to tend to the fairness of the game.

    Of course, this is a double edged sword. That freedom to interpret the laws to ensure fairness also opens the door to judgements that often challenge credibility. Especially if it's MY TEAM that is apparently being cheated.

    Which is why I was not a big fan of VAR overall. Yes, humans make mistakes and Law 5 gives referees a lot of freedom to interpret the laws, but now, seeing these silly interludes where the game flow is severely interrupted to measure inches (or millimeters in the case of Tottenham v Leicester recently) is hurting the game.

    RocktheCasbah4 is correct in asserting that these minuscule measurements are defying the spirit of the Offside Law. The intention of Law 10 is to ensure "fair play" so that players have to "earn" their goals. Judging the precise millisecond when the ball is "played by a teammate" is nearly impossible. And if a sliver of a foot is "ahead" of the defender, is that really much of an advantage?

    I rarely watch American football anymore because it has no flow and breaks all the time to decide if a fingernail or toenail touched a line or not.

    I would be happy to drop VAR and go back to human judgement. In fact, someone commented on Baldy's body language around his VAR reviews. My suspicion is that he dislikes VAR too and hates having to have his real-time decisions reviewed and possibly overturned.
     
  25. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Beat me to it. The Quakes were not good enough to win this game. They played like it was a must win game and it showed. Players were angry and yelling at each other. Not just one or two, but several. The pressure got to them. Too many poor passes!

    There was some really bad performances. Fierro was horrible. Between floating crosses to nobody, not tracking back, and putting no pressure off of the dribble, he just sucked. I don't see the speed and he certainly is not fit enough as he was jogging back even in the first half. Lima was not much better. He is too slow in thinking and struggles mightily with the ball at his feet. Similar to Danny (different), he is really struggling with the new system and not sure how good of a fit.

    Teams have always adjusted to the Quakes/Almeyda by putting someone on Jackson and pressuring him. While he had a nice goal, his game has dropped off since the middle of the season. Give Phili credit, they played hard and took advantage of their height.
     
    Boysinblue repped this.

Share This Page