Thought I would give a 100 greatest European footballers list a shot. I tried to represent all eras, positions and countries appropriately. One of my main thoughts was to give each era equal representation if he competition levels are similar. For example, the best players in the interwar era (Sindelar, Meazza etc) are usually just tossed in around the 30s. I don't see any reason why the best player in the world in the 30s should be looked at any differently than the best players in the world in the 50s. I broke the list down by position, country, and era to help myself sort it out. At some point int he second half of the list everyone is so close I do not feel super confident about any of it. 1 Johan Cruyff 2 Ferenc Puskás 3 Cristiano Ronaldo 4 Michel Platini 5 Franz Beckenbauer 6 Mathias Sindelar 7 Paolo Maldini 8 Eusébio 9 Lothar Matthaus 10 Gianluigi Buffon 11 Marco van Basten 12 Zinedine Zidane 13 Bobby Charlton 14 Giuseppe Meazza 15 Gunnar Nordahl 16 Bobby Walker 17 Stanley Matthews 18 Raymond Kopa 19 Fritz Walter 20 Ruud Krol 21 Gerd Muller 22 Karel Pesek 23 Franco Baresi 24 George Best 25 Xavi 26 Gianni Rivera 27 Billy Meredith 28 Frank Rijkaard 29 GO Smith 30 Gyorgy Sarosi 31 Ruud Gullit 32 Alan Morton 33 Gaetano Scirea 34 Ernest Needham 35 Luis Suarez 36 Lev Yashin 37 Bob Crompton 38 Thierry Henry 39 Giacinto Facchetti 40 Ricardo Zamora 41 Dennis Bergkamp 42 Bobby Moore 43 Luis Figo 44 Jozsef Bozsik 45 Walter Arnott 46 Ernst Ocwirk 47 Fabio Cannavaro 48 Florian Albert 49 Kurt Hamrin 50 Mario Coluna 51 Raymond Braine 52 Francisco Gento 53 Eddie Hapgood 54 Luka Modric 55 Nandor Hidegkuti 56 Steve Bloomer 57 Pirri 58 Sandor Kocsis 59 Dino Zoff 60 Tom Finney 61 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 62 Nils Liedholm 63 Ned Doig 64 Kevin Keegan 65 Nick Ross 66 Kenny Daglish 67 Raul 68 Danny Blanchflower 69 Igor Netto 70 Dragan Dzajic 71 Pavel Nedved 72 Lillian Thurman 73 Peter Shilton 74 Andrea Pirlo 75 Paul Breitner 76 Josef Masopust 77 Sandro Mazzola 78 Marcel Desailly 79 Andres Iniesta 80 James Cowan 81 Roberto Baggio 82 Georghe Hagi 83 Peter Schmeichel 84 Hristo Stoichkov 85 Iker Casillas 86 Denis Law 87 Karl-Heinz Schnellinger 88 Paul Van Himst 89 Michael Laudrup 90 Vladimir Beara 91 John Charles 92 Faas Wilkes 93 František Plánička 94 Alex James 95 Roy Keane 96 Sepp Maier 97 Kazimierz Deyna 98 Jean Tigana 99 Sam Hardy 100 Berti Vogts
By position C Forward (13) Johan Cruyff Mathias Sindelar Marco van Basten Giuseppe Meazza Gunnar Nordahl Gerd Muller GO Smith Gyorgy Sarosi Thierry Henry Florian Albert Raymond Braine Nandor Hidegkuti John Charles Forwards (18) Ferenc Puskás Cristiano Ronaldo Eusébio Fritz Walter Dennis Bergkamp Steve Bloomer Sandor Kocsis Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Kevin Keegan Kenny Daglish Raul Sandro Mazzola Roberto Baggio Hristo Stoichkov Denis Law Paul Van Himst Michael Laudrup Faas Wilkes Wingers (9) Stanley Matthews George Best Billy Meredith Alan Morton Luis Figo Kurt Hamrin Francisco Gento Tom Finney Dragan Dzajic Pavel Nedved A Midfield (13) Michel Platini Zinedine Zidane Bobby Charlton Bobby Walker Raymond Kopa Gianni Rivera Ruud Gullit Nils Liedholm Paul Breitner Andres Iniesta Georghe Hagi Alex James Kazimierz Deyna C Midfield (18) Lothar Matthaus Karel Pesek Xavi Frank Rijkaard Ernest Needham Luis Suarez Jozsef Bozsik Ernst Ocwirk Mario Coluna Luka Modric Pirri Danny Blanchflower Igor Netto Andrea Pirlo Josef Masopust James Cowan Roy Keane Jean Tigana Defender (16) Franz Beckenbauer Paolo Maldini Ruud Krol Franco Baresi Gaetano Scirea Bob Crompton Giacinto Facchetti Bobby Moore Walter Arnott Fabio Cannavaro Eddie Hapgood Nick Ross Lillian Thurman Marcel Desailly Karl-Heinz Schnellinger Berti Vogts Goalkeeper (12) Gianluigi Buffon Lev Yashin Ricardo Zamora Dino Zoff Ned Doig Peter Shilton Peter Schmeichel Iker Casillas Vladimir Beara František Plánička Sepp Maier Sam Hardy
By Era Pre War (11) Bobby Walker Billy Meredith GO Smith Ernest Needham Bob Crompton Walter Arnott Steve Bloomer Ned Doig Nick Ross James Cowan Sam Hardy Interwar (10) Mathias Sindelar Giuseppe Meazza Karel Pesek Gyorgy Sarosi Alan Morton Ricardo Zamora Raymond Braine Eddie Hapgood František Plánička Alex James WWII and 1950s (15) Ferenc Puskás Gunnar Nordahl Stanley Matthews Raymond Kopa Fritz Walter Jozsef Bozsik Ernst Ocwirk Nandor Hidegkuti Sandor Kocsis Tom Finney Nils Liedholm Igor Netto Vladimir Beara John Charles Faas Wilkes 1960s late 50s (16) Eusébio Bobby Charlton Gianni Rivera Luis Suarez Lev Yashin Giacinto Facchetti Bobby Moore Florian Albert Kurt Hamrin Mario Coluna Francisco Gento Danny Blanchflower Josef Masopust Denis Law Karl-Heinz Schnellinger Paul Van Himst 1970s and late 60s (13) Johan Cruyff Franz Beckenbauer Ruud Krol Gerd Muller George Best Pirri Dino Zoff Dragan Dzajic Paul Breitner Sandro Mazzola Sepp Maier Kazimierz Deyna Berti Vogts 1980s and late 70s (12) Michel Platini Lothar Matthaus Marco van Basten Franco Baresi Frank Rijkaard Ruud Gullit Gaetano Scirea Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Kevin Keegan Kenny Daglish Peter Shilton Jean Tigana 90s and early 00s (15) Paolo Maldini Zinedine Zidane Dennis Bergkamp Luis Figo Fabio Cannavaro Raul Pavel Nedved Lillian Thurman Marcel Desailly Roberto Baggio Georghe Hagi Peter Schmeichel Hristo Stoichkov Michael Laudrup Roy Keane Modern Cristiano Ronaldo Gianluigi Buffon Xavi Thierry Henry Luka Modric Andrea Pirlo Andres Iniesta Iker Casillas
By Country (region) Austria (2) Mathias Sindelar Ernst Ocwirk Belguim (2) Raymond Braine Paul Van Himst Bulgaria (1) Hristo Stoichkov Czechs (4) Karel Pesek Pavel Nedved Josef Masopust František Plánička Denmark (2) Peter Schmeichel Michael Laudrup England (12) Bobby Charlton Stanley Matthews GO Smith Ernest Needham Bob Crompton Bobby Moore Eddie Hapgood Steve Bloomer Tom Finney Kevin Keegan Peter Shilton Sam Hardy France (7) Michel Platini Zinedine Zidane Raymond Kopa Thierry Henry Lillian Thurman Marcel Desailly Jean Tigana Germany (9) Franz Beckenbauer Lothar Matthaus Fritz Walter Gerd Muller Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Paul Breitner Karl-Heinz Schnellinger Sepp Maier Berti Vogts Hungary (6) Ferenc Puskás Gyorgy Sarosi Jozsef Bozsik Florian Albert Nandor Hidegkuti Sandor Kocsis Ireland (3) George Best Danny Blanchflower Roy Keane Italy (12) Paolo Maldini Gianluigi Buffon Giuseppe Meazza Franco Baresi Gianni Rivera Gaetano Scirea Giacinto Facchetti Fabio Cannavaro Dino Zoff Andrea Pirlo Sandro Mazzola Roberto Baggio Netherlands (7) Johan Cruyff Marco van Basten Ruud Krol Frank Rijkaard Ruud Gullit Dennis Bergkamp Faas Wilkes Poland (1) Kazimierz Deyna Portugal (4) Cristiano Ronaldo Eusébio Luis Figo Mario Coluna Romania (1) Georghe Hagi Scotland (9) Bobby Walker Alan Morton Walter Arnott Ned Doig Nick Ross Kenny Daglish James Cowan Denis Law Alex James Soviet (2) Lev Yashin Igor Netto Spain (8) Xavi Luis Suarez Ricardo Zamora Francisco Gento Pirri Raul Andres Iniesta Iker Casillas Sweden (3) Gunnar Nordahl Kurt Hamrin Nils Liedholm Wales (2) Billy Meredith John Charles Yugoslavia (3) Luka Modric Dragan Dzajic Vladimir Beara
I will quickly address a few points where I feel like I have gone against the grain. First is the higher rating of early players that I touched on earlier: Sindelar at #6, Pesek as the second best CM etc. For Sindelar particularly I am often puzzled as to why no one ever puts him near a top 10. His career seems very similar to Platini's in both peak and longevity to me. They both had a three year run where they hit legendary height and were undoubtedly the best player in the world, but both of the runs did not coincide with a world cup. They both won major continental competitions with both club and country during this run, and played at a level that really blew people away. Sindelar's impact coming back into the national team is really unreal. Before his return they were right there in the middle of the pack competitive with the other European sides, and upon his reentry into the team they became unbeatable juggernauts, crushing teams in a way that no other continental team had or would during this entire era. 5-0 vs Scotland, 6-0 at Germany, 5-0 vs Germany, 8-1 at Switzerland, 8-2 vs Hungary etc. These are top level teams they just start demolishing. In the Mitropa Cup he has amazing performances vs Juventus and Inter, running Monti ragged in the semis and out dueling Meazza in the final. And doing it all in style scoring great goals, creating chances, dropping deep and running the whole game as a center forward. Pesek was as far as I can tell had a argument to be the best continental player all the way from 1918 to 1927. And even beyond that into 1930 he is still playing great leading his team to the Mitropa Cup final etc. I can't think of any other center mids that had this long a run being considered the best player in Europe. Krul being the second best Euro defender ever may be surprising, especially ahead of Baresi. For me Krul has no blemishes in his career. The minute he steps on he seen his starts winning European Cups and is part of the great 74 world cup team and basically has a whole career as a fullback that would get him on this list. Then he has a second career as a sweeper and has another great world cup, leads a totally new Ajax to some deep Europe runs, then moves to Italy and is fantastic there, having better ratings at the same position as Scirea while Scirea is at his absolute peak and has his highest rated seasons ever in 81 and 82 while Krol is nearing the end of his career. Looking at Baresi it bothers me that for close to half of his career he is not being capped and his club team is not particularly good. At his peak I would probably rate him a better player than Krul but that difference is small in my mind, while that big gap in Baresi's career really hurts his overall accumulation of top level seasons vs Krol. Walter as the third best German player is another I would like to address. The fact that he sill scored well for me in longevity despite WWII in the prime of his career and not being able to play for the national team for eight years is amazing. He started out so strong in 40-42, he was being talked about like a totally different style of forward, running the whole game like a midfielder, being in total control of the team. Then to come back in 51 and be made captain of a brand new national team that has not played togther and win the World Cup three years later is fantastic. A little bit of his rating is based on the idea of what type of career he could have had if he had been able to play uninterrupted with Germany all the way through. I think he would have ended up as the greatest German footballer ever. Another player I thought a lot about was Nordahl, and I still think I could move him higher. A lot of these ranking come down to opportunity. What if Nordahl played his whole career in Muller's position: playing your entire career for one of the best clubs in the world during an era with fully developing continental competition (European Cup, Cup Winners Cup, Fairs Cup), and playing for one of the best countries in the world. What if Nordahl got to play his whole club career with AC Milan with full access the EC/CWC/FC and played his whole international career with the full Sweden lineup along side Gren, Liedholm, Carlsson, Skoglund, Hamrin, Johansson, Nilsson, Bergmark etc. With his Swedish career cut short right as he entered his prime he had already scored 43 goals in 33 games. He would have easily ended as the all time leading scorer in internationals and might have a world cup to his name. Think of how out of touch his Serie A scoring records would have been.
Can you explain the high position of Cannavaro (with Nesta not in, for example)? Also with the longevity factor in mind, that is apparently applied here.
I usually hold a different view. It's unfortunate that some players are unluckier than others, but I usually don't give them the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, it opens up too much hypotheticals. Good spot. I haven't looked at the list yet, honestly, but this does seems questionable.
As a finisher, how good was Netzer compared to Platini ? Besides all the palymaking thing, scoring goals is what separates Platini from everybody playing at his position bar a very few number of players... And Netzer is not of them.
Nice effort Tom, and nice to see you back. I think @peterhrt might like to see it because (although for Europe only) it has parallels to his ideas on another thread. Maybe I can even look back at that work of peter's and my contribution and see if I can convert it to my own attempt, but I'll try not to distract myself too much today because I have a few match reports to post for All-Time World Cup game matches too still! What I would need to do would be to add more choices for the pre-war section to my previous ideas anyway, and to be honest for that period and even more the inter-war period arguably I could well be leaning a lot on your own excellent research to make my choices anyway! I guess, although what you said about the 1930s and 1950s probably does make sense, that overall doing it this way we wouldn't be claiming it is a literal best 100 European players list, vis a vis comparing the attributes and abilities etc of all players (as much as I'm one who suggests older players aren't necessarily automatically in a lower class, especially when looking at things absent of fitness gains etc, I don't feel the talent and overall 'quality' stood still through history...but it's also just impossible to verify for pre and interwar players generally speaking visually I suppose too), but more of a list of who stood out the most in their own time. From what I've seen for example, and it isn't exactly dispelled by anything I read, I couldn't really see a Netto or a Van Himst above a Michael Laudrup, and maybe it doesn't sit right to see him below a Casillas or Schnellinger for me too! But that era for era factor (and wanting to represent each role in the team well too) can explain that I think, as well as individual preferences and ideas. I'll see if I come up with anything anyway; I've been trying to cut back on adding various lists (including the last 25 years ones, although Puck asked me to have a go at that by PM...which is fine of course; and any Premier League ones I thought about, whether based on short or long term - btw either way I guess I would be for example at least as likely to consider a Sadio Mane now from recent/current years as a Chris Waddle from beginning/early years so maybe my bias is not over the top anyway!).
This is probably a valid miss, as most consider them roughly equal which seems fair to me. One of the problems I had was balancing the list by country/position/era. I already had the most Italian players of any non British country (who played a whole era before any other country). It would be hard for me to include another Italian at another countries expense. If I included Nesta it might be at another Italians expense, maybe Baggio as I have some issues with his career. On its face having Nesta above Baggio on an all time list might seem strange to some but I might consider it. I found a lot of players I wanted to include but did not have room for where probably equal in qualifications to anyone in the last 30 or so players: Pre War: Goodall, Bassett, Thomson, Hamilton Interwar: Nejedly, Orth, Gallacher, Bastin, Puc, Brook, Piola, Combi 50s WWII: Vukas, Gren, Hanappi, Jonquet, Wright 60s: Seeler, Greaves, Viktor 70s: Blokhin, Lubanski, Van Hanegem, Neeskens, Netzer, Bremner 80s: Simonsen, Souness, Lerby, Gerets, Bergomi, Schumacher, Dasaev 90s: Giggs, Viera, Sammer, Hierro, Nesta, Blanc, Van der Sar Modern: Robben, Busquets, Gerrard, Lampard, Seedorf, Piques, Ramos, Lahm and many more, these were a few off the top of my head I remember having a hard time leaving out. It does seem more egregious when I admit Nesta is very close to a player I have in the top 50.
I agree this should only be used as a tiebreaker at best, but it is hard not to think about it especially when missing time has nothing to do with the player, e.g. injuries. I think about it with Puskas is he has not missed two and a half seasons at his peak and lost most of another season getting back in shape. I think about he and Kocsis's all time international scoring numbers if they had been able to continue with the national team. I think about it with Matthews and WWII and players like Hardy and WWI. Walter is especially mind blowing as he missed his best 8 years with the national team during WWII and Germany's ban on fielding a team after the war.
Not forgetting Van Basten of course. You put him pretty high anyway in the list you've made today, but I'm thinking these could be some reasons he ranked a bit higher at the end of the century than today on average (with exceptions - in the 'All-Time World Cup' book I have the author puts him at place 26 but specifically references the injuries etc and indicates he'd surely be higher without them).: - Maybe quite a lot of people didn't automatically think hugely about longevity anyway, especially with public votes like the World Soccer readers vote for example. Now, on the internet especially, it tends to at least be factored in. - Back then he was basically a 'modern' player and it was easy to see him as playing in a newer time where goals were not so frequent as in the time of Nordahl for example. - Maybe these allowances/'excuses' are not seen as automatically applying, especially if longevity formulas etc are applied. - The goal scoring level he had outside of the Netherlands, perhaps looks less impressive to 'modern eyes' who didn't see him first hand, so look into him like any other more historical player. Those are a few ideas anyway. I guess it partially applies to him vs Matthaus in your list still (even if personally I retain some kind of idea that Matthaus's longevity/consistency as a very top performer wasn't really great, despite overall good longevity/consistency as a generally notable one). But indeed you have him quite a bit higher than Gullit. Maybe like you say the numbers are hard to hand out anyway, mixing players from all these different eras, or they mean a bit less than when someone tries to list who they might see as literally the best (not accounting for balancing things by era etc).
Like I implied, for pre-war players I'd almost be inclined to just go with Tom's choices (or Peterhrt's) for example! But if I tried to pick 11 who I know something about and who might seem feasible choices maybe I'd go with these: Sam Hardy Renzo De Vecchi Ernest Needham Nils Middelboe Billy Meredith Vivian Woodward John Goodall GO Smith Tinsley Lindley Steve Bloomer Imre Schlosser
For 10 Inter-war I might select: Ricardo Zamora Gyorgy Sarosi Raymond Braine Alex James Alan Morton Matthias Sindelar Giussepe Meazza Oldrich Nejedly Josef Bican Silvio Piola Putting them in vaguely estimated order (in case I try a numbered overall list, scattering them evenly among the names) I guess I'd choose this based on what I know of them: Meazza Sarosi Sindelar Bican Piola Zamora Nejedly James Morton Braine For the pre-war ones I'll suggest this! Smith Schlosser De Vecchi Goodall Meredith Woodward Needham Bloomer Lindley Middelboe Hardy
You do realise that he was a midfielder, don't you ? You can't expect a player sitting as deep as Zidane or often as deep as Pirlo to be one the best goalscorers in the world... and yet he was, despite your (weird) claim.
So I guess if I did end up trying a 100 like Tom's own list, I'd put two in each 20 names from both of those lists, and then probably round it out with Hardy at number 100. I'm not really sure I will do though, but I've got the names ready if I decide to have a go at it. I'd try to factor in longevity pretty well, even if I don't always, since I think Tom has (I agree with the idea of allowing for injuries/circumstances though, in being lenient re: longevity/Intl honours etc potentially), and that was Peterhrt's idea too I think on the other thread I refer to with a similar theme (Peter's theme was similar I mean - it was on the general 'Best Football Players' thread though).
Having already picked Bican in the previous period, I guess I'd have this for matching Tom's allocation in the 40s/50s batch (this time ordering them roughly speaking as I go): (This was the place in that thread I mentioned where I was doing similar things although 'cheating' a bit by reducing earlier players while this time I try to have a go at including the ones I'm most persuaded by; peterhrt will have started things off a few pages earlier I think and I can't remember if Tom was involved or not) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-football-players-of-all-time.2011432/page-56#post-37434096 I'm not sticking completely to my choices in that thread, and the time periods are a bit different I think anyway, but I'm leaning to following it quite closely so as to keep the spread by nations/positions etc too. Ferenc Puskas Stanley Matthews Tom Finney Raymond Kopa Just Fontaine Nandor Hidegkuti Ladislao Kubala Nils Liedholm Sandor Kocsis Jozsef Bozsik Valentino Mazzola Fritz Walter Gunnar Nordahl Ernst Ocwirk Faas Wilkes Into the 60s from late 50s: George Best Eusebio Bobby Charlton Bobby Moore Lev Yashin Gianni Rivera Gordon Banks John Charles Jimmy Greaves Florian Albert Denis Law Sandro Mazzola Luis Suarez Josef Masopust Giacinto Facchetti Mario Coluna Into the 70s from late 60s: Johan Cruyff Franz Beckenbauer Gerd Muller Johan Neeskens Dragan Dzajic Kazimierz Deyna Rob Rensenbrink Dino Zoff Gunter Netzer Wlodzimierz Lubanski Wim van Hanegem Berti Vogts Luigi Riva Into the 80s from late 70s: Franco Baresi Kenny Dalglish Ruud Gullit Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Ruud Krol Gaetano Scirea Jean Tigana Paolo Rossi Paul Breitner Manuel Amoros Pierre Littbarski Emilio Butragueno Into the 90s & early 00s: Marco van Basten Zinedine Zidane Michael Laudrup Roberto Baggio Luis Figo Lothar Matthaus Paolo Maldini Dennis Bergkamp Gheorghe Hagi Dejan Savicevic Peter Schmeichel Frank Rijkaard Andriy Shevchenko Pavel Nedved Marcel Desailly Modern day: Cristiano Ronaldo Thierry Henry Andres Iniesta Xavi Gianluigi Buffon Fabio Cannavaro Arjen Robben Alessandro Nesta
I think largely because there is a greater gauge for the best player in the world in the 50s than the 30s. In the 30s we have two World Cups at which Uruguay, Argentina and the Home Nations didn't participate, whereas in the 50s the tournaments we had the best teams participating. In the 30s we had the Mitropa Cup whereas in the 50s we had the Latin Cup and then the European Cup. We also had better players clustered in fewer leagues which probably allowed them to prove themselves more. We also have far less consensus in the literature about those players. Though far from definitive, many old lists basically ignored the likes of Meazza and Sindelar, at least in part because many just wouldn't have seen them play. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/old-great-players-lists-esp-1950s-1970s.2038892/ So personally I would have far less confidence that Sindelar and Meazza actually were the best players in their era than I would with the likes of Di Stefano or Puskas.
It's good to see that reasoning applied. Although the reason why it occurs is obvious (the older they are there is less information on the surface and easily digestible to order ideas about each period), I think that even having that notion is often difficult to modify that trend. I usually assumed that's the reason why it's not so common to see Matthias Sindelar in tops 10-20 (I think Giuseppe Meazza is usually less affected by the common revisionism of world champions). What I think is quite difficult to judge is all of the preceding World War I, not only because the information is scarcer and comparisons less accurate, but because football seemed a somewhat different sport then (I get the impression that even more different than later), but, above all, the fact that until then football had little worldwide development and almost only focused in the British Isles causes me a problem of scales for an all-time world/continental ranking. I find it very interesting to read the evaluations in their own time and highlight the most outstanding players since the 19th century, but when combined with players of all ages that conflict seems me complicated to resolve, maybe unorganic (I don't know if the expression is well spoken in English). For this reason, I increasingly believe that historical rankings of international scale can be traced adequately only until the 1920's and the period before it corresponds to a somewhat different and incompatible stage, although not less important.
I find him a bit too high in the overall list (how does he compare to Koeman? In NED this isn't a slam dunk) but this is a good 'Ruud Krol for dummies': edit: I do think he has to be ahead of Scirea though. Has the stronger case overall.
I'd be out of my comfort zone submitting the ordered list really, but just to complete the exercise I'm thinking it'd be something like shown according to the numbers I'm inserting in the quoted sections below, if trying to split the eras pretty equally, but allow for some consideration of how much they might have stood out in their own era and even how they might compare as football players overall IMO, in each section. Somehow I'd left Platini out, so now I remove his countryman Amoros even though he was in my original post. I'm realising upon closer inspection I put some players in different eras to Tom, but it's marginal calls I guess and doesn't really matter.