2018-2019 UEFA Season Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, May 29, 2018.

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  1. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    If VAR was used that way, then games would end 9 vs. 10 with three penalty kicks a game.

    Watch the World Cup and MLS. Watch how they dialed back VAR after a couple of early penalty kicks and, in MLS, red cards for violent conduct.

    You can go through almost any game and find a penalty kick in isolation or a red card. Just look at the example @MassachusettsRef pointed out in the Roma vs. Porto match. You put that clip in a grade 8 entry level course teaching referees what constitutes a careless foul and a penalty kick.
     
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  2. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #427 RedStar91, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    To add to my further point, about VAR not being designed to serve us "referee nerds" on this forum.

    1103432074105626624 is not a valid tweet id


    http://www.espn.com/soccer/paris-sa...ymar-blasts-var-after-losscalls-it-a-disgrace
     
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems like UEFA is going more down the league route instead of the FIFA route when it comes to liberal use of OFRs.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For handling.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And to be fair, handling OFRs made up what percentage of all OFRs at the World Cup? Like 60%?
     
  6. lemma

    lemma Member

    Jul 19, 2011
    VAR is a technological solution to an emotional problem.

    So of course it's not going to work (the way they thought it would.)
     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To pile on just a little here, even though I think MLS has done VAR much better than almost all other competitions, there were three OFRs in Week 1 of 2019. All three were for alleged handling offences (though admittedly the Fischer one was more complicated than that and the act of handling wasn't really in question).
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will add that once again we see a fascinating difference between how the UK interprets handling vs how pretty much the rest of the world interprets it. Obviously since this helped a big English team, you're not seeing nearly as much controversy as you would had it gone the other way.
     
  9. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Part of the problem is the fact that the actual LOTG are too vague with regard to handling, especially given the speed of the modern game. There is no hard and fast definition of what "intent" means, which has resulted in the development of the whole "unnatural body position" standard (which completely ignores the issues of ball-to-hand vs hand-to-ball and reaction time).
     
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  10. fischietto

    fischietto Member

    Apr 13, 2018
    The advent of VAR has exarcerbated fundamental issues in determine what handling is.

    In the past, during live play, one could easily move past a borderline handling situation. There might be controversy IN THE MOMENT, but everyone would move on. Now we are drawing it out even further. There’s no avoiding it anymore. I’m not afraid to admit that in a practical game environment, I really don’t call all too many handballs. Based on what I’m seeing with VAR, looks like I need to become a little more stringent.

    We can only assume the instruction is that such contacts ARE infringements. Why are these edicts hidden from the majority of referees, and the football community at large?
     
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  11. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    In normal everyday English, "intent" implies conscious effort to accomplish a goal.

    In order to make a conscious effort to do anything you have to have time to think about the possible action and then decide to take said action.

    So according to the accepted English language definition of "intent", for a player to commit a handling offense, he/she has to have time to consciously decide to move their hand/arm into the path of the ball AFTER it has been played by the attacking player.

    However, the current interpretation is almost the complete opposite of actual "intent. According to FIFA, merely having your arm/hand in any position where it might conceivably make contact with the ball (i.e. in an unnatural position) should the ball be kicked towards it is a handling offense.

    Whether or not the defender had time to react, or intended to handle the ball, has become irrelevant. Situations of ball-to-hand with zero reaction time are now considered to be handling offenses any time the hand/arm is not tight to the body.
     
  12. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
  13. Cevno

    Cevno Member+

    Aug 27, 2005
    Shifting.
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Not enough talk about the Var use and then non use in Roma Porto game as well.

    Schick incident was interesting and they chickened out.
     
  14. This is exactly what a former soccer player and guest in a football show wrote. I forgot his name tbh. He wrote that the VAR isnot the problem , but the rules (=Lotg) are as these arenot compatible with the speed of modern game anymore.
     
  15. In field hockey, afaik, intent isnot an issue as any contact with the ball to the foot is a penalty.
     
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  16. shawn12011

    shawn12011 Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Reisterstown, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    field hockey has it's flaws i.e the obstruction rules that we in soccer call shielding.....
     
  17. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    This - what I still don't understand is IFAB's/FIFA's/Any league's utter refusal to inform the public.
    Why is this secret? If the action X is a foul, shouldn't those deciding the foul inform those playing/watching/investing in/supporting what criteria they are using?

    It's as if a municipality passed an ordinance that read "It is unlaw to exceed the speed limit on public roadways" and then did not post speed limit signs or publish speed limits.

    What's worse, is that cop A may think the speed limit is 30 when cop B thinks it is 35 or they both agree its 30 but Cop A was taught not to actually ticket unless the limit is exceeded by 5 MPH while Cop B has been taught to ticket the moment the limit is exceeded.

    Now, lets give the police power to review each other.

    Driver doing 32 - Cop A CR, Cop B 4O - there is CAOE as Cop B has been taught to ticket anything over the limit.

    Next day, another Driver is doing 33. Cop B is CR and Cop A is 4O. Cop B contrary to his training doesn't ticket the driver. There is no CAOE as Cop A was taught to give a 5 MPH leeway.

    This is why, until the powers that be make their standards public and force all leagues to enforce in the same manner, VAR will always be a sham.
     
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  18. Geko

    Geko Member

    Sacremento Geckos
    United States
    May 25, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is an embarrassing take by Clatts. If our job as referees is to enforce a coherent standard across competitions in line with a single document, how can you say "I don't think it should've been a penalty" and "He enforced the interpretations/instruction of UEFA correctly". Worst case scenario you can say "He enforced the new instruction correctly, but I don't like the new instruction."
     
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  19. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The guidance is very poorly publicized, but it's not secret. Anyone can find the RAP and FUTURO guidance if they want to see it
     
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  20. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Isn't that what he said.

    "This would never be given as a penalty in the Premier League, but it was given in the Champions League because of UEFA's recent instruction to referees, which came about after Manchester City conceded a similar one at Schalke last month.

    They want referees to penalise handballs when the arm is out and in a non-natural position.

    In that respect the official has been consistent."

    He's saying this shouldn't be a "handball", but its what UEFA wants and the ref was just doing what he's told.

    I see nothing wrong with that. He clearly doesn't like the instruction.


    BTW - reading the Daily Mail is like reading the news off the side of a NASCAR car.
     
  21. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Isn't this the big flaw? Across leagues in Europe things are always called differently. I primarily watch Ajax matches and challenges that will be permitted in the EPL are routinely given a YC in the Eredivisie. Ajax have won two penalties this season because of VAR decision that were rightfully called.
     
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  22. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
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  23. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    For what it is worth, here was Dermot Gallagher's take on this on Sky this morning:

    Manchester United's Champions League penalty would never be given in the Premier League, even when VAR comes to England, says Dermot Gallagher.

    Former Premier League referee Gallagher was stunned by VAR's decision to award United a stoppage-time penalty against Paris Saint-Germain which saw Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's side progress to the quarter-finals on Wednesday.

    PSG defender Presnel Kimpembe was penalised for handball in the final minute as referee Damir Skomina ruled he had blocked Diogo Dalot's shot with his arm.

    "I didn't think it was a penalty," Gallagher said. "I would be pretty annoyed if I was a defender and that was given against me.

    If you look at it, it's struck the defender on the arm, there's no doubt about that but his arm is so close to his body, he's turning away, I don't think he had any intention whatsoever of doing anything but getting out the way of the ball.

    For me, I'm very surprised it was given. The Premier League are testing (VAR) at the moment. They're testing week in week out. I just think that next season they'll go 'Yeah, we'll give a corner because it's too close, his arms are in and we'll just move on'.

    "I haven't spoken to anyone this morning who thinks that's a penalty."

    That view has also publicly been supported by Clattenburg, Halsey and Keith Hackett.

    Of course, that just highlights the issues that have been discussed here frequently, for though these guys are very highly respected, the truth of the matter is that Skomina absolutely followed UEFA guidelines with that decision, and they are very happy that the penalty-kick was given.
     
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  24. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Please share.
     

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