Copa Libertadores 2018

Discussion in 'Copa Libertadores / Sudamericana' started by Century's Best, Dec 26, 2017.

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  1. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Right. But rules change. Saying it happened since futbol started is no excuse. It weighed against him that it's at least the 2nd time in this Libertadores campaign that it happened. So he should be well aware.

    I agree that if it happened to a Brazilian team the media would be all out conspiracy stories.
     
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  2. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Okay, but do you think they should give Gremio points over this BS? Come on! If it was River asking for this I would be laughing at them, and if it was Boca asking for this I would be ashamed of it. Especially after Gremio's display on the field last night, they should just let it go and go quietly into the night. And I realize they were missing their best players, but I'm not talking about the quality of their play, but about the attitude with which they played.
     
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  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I don't think they expect the result to be overturned, but often teams make the argument anyways just to made the issue more public. Also takes some focus away from the fact they messed up.
     
  4. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    My prediction ...

     
  5. AcesHigh

    AcesHigh Member+

    Nov 30, 2005
    Novo Hamburgo
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil

    lol, when you field a player that was suspended, does it influences the outcome of the match?? Many times it DOES NOT. But even having the player on the bench can take three points out of your team.

    Look at Chapecoense and Santos.


    let's also not forget River scored a hand goal and no VAR was used...
     
  6. Burr

    Burr Member+

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Jul 8, 2014
    Tampa, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What's the point of rules if you don't enforce them? Suspending Gallardo again for the final has already proven meaningless since he was already able to circumvent it once. Reversing the result is extreme but there needs to be more tangible punishment than another fine or suspension.
     
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  7. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    VAR is supposedly always used in goal occasions. Just because the VAR refs didn't notify the field ref doesn't mean they didn't review the play. It means they though it didn't merit a review. And by that replay it's obvious why. You can't tell me that replay shows definitely that it hit his arm. Field ref would have looked at that and probably the goal would have stood.
     
  8. pipinogol

    pipinogol Member+

    May 20, 2016
    Club:
    Cary RailHawks U23
    #333 pipinogol, Oct 31, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
    The recomendation is that the VAR ref should calls he main referee when there is a very clear omission. Even in that close up video it's not very clear if he touched it with the hand or not, it's nowhere as clear as the penalty hand.

    And btw River is also saying VAR should have been called when Miranda kicked Martínez and the match was 1-0. Everyone can find something to protest...
     
  9. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    I think Renato Portaluppi saying his team was "robbed" and the senior management of Grêmio deciding to petition CONMEBOL for the points is more than an understandable perception of them being sore losers.

    I for one have become weary of all these point-deduction-based qualifications for teams. I do stand by what I wrote that the rules are the rules; we've seen this in NT play (you as an Argentine probably celebrated Chile's use of the rules to benefit itself in WCQ only for the application of those same rules to ultimately conspire with other factors to leave Chile out of the qualification/playoff zone for Russia 2018). But the point stands... it's tiring. One team that should've made loses 3 points, another team who shouldn't have made advances, etc.

    As AcesHigh said in his post, River's first goal did include the football touching the hand of a River player. Granted, referees will interpret plays subjectively, but the point is made - if the ball touching Bressan's arm warranted a PK, the ball touching Borré's arm at least warranted a VAR examination.

    This is why this is convoluted. Grêmio does have a complaint which deserves a fair hearing; against it is River's solid effort, which does cast Grêmio's petition in a less than positive light.

    And it's at moments like this that I think that "yes, at least here, CONMEBOL should emulate UEFA." We normally don't see this kind of stuff happen in Europe; Marcelo Gallardo's disrespect of the rules was not only brazen, it was shameless. Even for South American standards.


    Precisely. I'm not saying the referee conspired to benefit River Plate, but if the ball touching Bressan's arm warranted a VAR review, ditto for what you show here.

    VAR needs to be applied uniformly. Ironic for River Plate - thanks to VAR it earned a PK and a second goal which sent it through, whereas precisely because VAR was not used last year when it very well warranted a review, Lanús escaped facing a River Plate PK and a possible 0-3 deficit in the return match... even though some Argentines then said River Plate had a history of choking when such pivotal PKs came up.
     
  10. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA

    Wow, an Argentine I agree with. :D

    We need to remember... if the rules being ignored benefit one team today, tomorrow the misapplication of those same rules might harm that same team. This is far more serious than any rivalry between CONMEBOL countries/clubs.
     
  11. AcesHigh

    AcesHigh Member+

    Nov 30, 2005
    Novo Hamburgo
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    CONMEBOL rules state that the punishments to players are equal to coaches.

    So if Gallardo communicated with the guy on the field, and even visited the dressing room in the interval to pass instructions, he influenced the result.
     
  12. pipinogol

    pipinogol Member+

    May 20, 2016
    Club:
    Cary RailHawks U23
    Quote the relevant articles so we can discuss what they say.

    As for the latter... where you draw the line of what "influences" a result? A suspended player playing? The motivation from a coach at half-time? The boots a player changed during the match? The home ball boys hiding balls when their team is winning?

    As far as I have read I don't see any article that CLEARLY states that a coach breaking rules gives the Match to the other team.
     
  13. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He influenced the game. The result obviously can't be proved.
     
  14. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The result of the appeal will depend on what happens today.

    No way CONMEBOL lets a "Final de Clásico" get away from their hands.
     
  15. locoxriver

    locoxriver Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 22, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    lmao wow this crying is getting out of hand... sad, sad, sad
     
  16. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    There was no evidence that could prove a hand ball on River's first goal. That's why VAR was not used to overturn it. On the penalty the evidence was obvious, that's why VAR was used.

    Ironically, last year River was at the other end of a VAR review. These are the words of River's Enzo Perez after River was eliminated last year, also by a correct use of VAR.

    "Asi nos sacaron de la copa, nos sacaron igual de la copa, inventaron el VAR, inventaron el VAR!!!

    "That's how they took us out of the cup, they took us out of the cup all the same, they invented VAR, they invented VAR!!!"

    Funny, I wonder if he changed his mind after last night.
     
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  17. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Pretty much agree here. I think Gremio can raise a stink about Gallardo, but the VAR is just emotional knee jerk reaction. Or calculated as I explained before.
     
  18. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    No crying . Just fair discussion . Don’t be so dramatic :ROFLMAO:
     
  19. locoxriver

    locoxriver Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 22, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Looks like the second leg of the final will have to be reprogrammed if Boca advances tonight..

    Currently, the first leg will be played on Nov. 7th and the return match on Nov. 28th (ridiculous 3 week break between both matches due to useless FIFA international dates). However, the G20 global summit is scheduled to occur in Buenos Aires on the week of the second final, causing transportation and security concerns for the city.

    They are currently analyzing reprogramming the second leg one week earlier (Nov. 21st), as postponing it one week would not only cause a one-month break between both finals, but would also make the decisive match be too close to the start of the CWC in December. If this happens, it would be played on an international FIFA date, but I assume River/Boca would be able to work something out with the NTs to either not call up their players, or release them early.

    Of course this is all hypothetical, because if Palmeiras advances tonight then the second leg will be played in Sao Paolo and there won't be any issues. However, given Boca's current lead, they're already thinking of logistics in case this issue does become a reality.
     
  20. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Colombia wont play.........

    [​IMG]
     
  21. locoxriver

    locoxriver Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 22, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    That's definitely good since Quintero, Borre, and Barrios are all key for their clubs, but Argentina has two friendlies vs. Mexico (Armani, Palacios, Pity Martinez, and Pavon are all part of the squad), while Uruguay plays Brazil and France during these dates (Mayada/Nandez)

    I imagine AFA would be reasonable in this case and would have no problem omitting the aforementioned players given the circumstances, but I don't know about Uruguay. If they apply their priority right to call-up players, losing Nandez would be a huge loss for Boca.
     
  22. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Where are their priorities? If we get a Superclásico final then they should reprogram the G20 global summit!!!

    But I don't want to jinx it, lets wait and see what happens tonight.
     
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  23. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina


    Yeah, and as I recall, Renato was also clumsy when he was a player, at least with the National Team, and especially when compared to some of the monstruos who were his teammates for Brasil at the time.
     
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  24. AcesHigh

    AcesHigh Member+

    Nov 30, 2005
    Novo Hamburgo
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    the video replay shows it hit his arm. The ball changes angle.

    Well, VAR also did not see or did not notice the clear penalty on Gabriel Jesus on the match against Belgium...
     
  25. AcesHigh

    AcesHigh Member+

    Nov 30, 2005
    Novo Hamburgo
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    much better than Gallardo, that's for sure.
     

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