sidebar conversation from Mukwelle Akale at Villarreal thread

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad Academy' started by Sombrerito, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see what Giggsy is saying there. NYFC did this before they started play. I believe U14/U15 and kept adding ages as their players got a year older so when the MLS team started playing they had a U14 to U19ish academy ready to contribute. Looking back that would have been smart but it was so chaotic back then and there was no cache about MLS to make coaches and kids want to go there. Perhaps it could have been done but starting a new league from nothing is not easy at all and has failed more times than worked.
     
  2. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    There are no professionals clubs in the United States we have franchises that are bought.
     
  3. soccerndo

    soccerndo Member

    Jan 16, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I don’t know what point you’re trying to make here besides giving us some obtuse history that’s not relevant though validating my point that MLS is a low level league. Villarreal B missed getting to seconda by a goal to Elche. The top players of that B squad are now plying their trade in various teams. To give you a few examples, Leo Suarez is on loan to Real Valladolid, Pau Torres is in Malaga, Adriane Dalmau is a top player in the Dutch first division, Samu the Nigerian is breaking into the Villarreal first team, Manu Molanes is breaking into the Villarreal first team, Chuca is killing it at Elche. Presently Akale is the most talented player of the B squad and from what I hear their most priced young talent as we speak. I’m happy he’s American and you should too.
     
  4. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Do you have any idea what his price is? Also, you forgot Dario Poveda who is scoring goals like crazy for Atletico Madrid........

    100 games with 6,352 minutes in his time with Villarreal. How many of our player's ages 18-21 are getting that amount of game time? Maybe Pulisic? I think that is about it.
     
  5. Sup Bro

    Sup Bro Member+

    Oct 26, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This thread is such a bizarro world. I come to see updates on Akale (sounds like he’s doing great btw) but get distracted by a few boners with superiority complexes trying to explain the world to everyone else...for like 3 straight years.

    I looked up those B team players from last year.

    -Leo Suarez had debuted for Villarreal by Akale’s age. Part time starter at Valladolid in La Liga.
    -Pau Torres is the same age as Akale, already debuted with Villarreal. Starter in La Liga 2.
    -Dalmau (24) played in Segunda Division with a few teams before breaking out last year in Segunda B. 2 goals in 8 games for 3rd place Heracles
    -Samu and Morlanes are younger than Akale and have first team debuts.
    -Dario Poveda has 3 goals in 7 games for Athletico Madrid B.


    All fine players making fine progress. I’d be happy to see Akale in La Liga 2 or the Eredivisie next year, but sheesh the way some of you talk about the B team makes it sound like it’s a golden ticket to stardom.
     
  6. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to make a point, there are more than a few players recently who have either gotten that many pro minutes in the US or are easily on pace to by the time they're Akale's age. Justen Glad, Kellyn Acosta, Auston Trusty, Tyler Adams, Reggie Cannon, Mark McKenzie, and Chris Durkin all either have/will. McKennie and Miazga would have got there if they stayed in the US longer. Antonee Robinson will probably get there, too.

    Whether Akale would have if he was on any MLS team is a different question. I believe the answer is 99% no.
     
  7. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    I'd be very curious to know the exact minutes for that group of players and notice the type of player on that list all #6's or Defenders which just tells you that MLS teams are looking to the athlete before the soccer brain.

    This is all part of the problem when it comes to us developing world-class talent.
     
  8. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the earlier days of MLS young players getting minutes tended to be attackers. Nowadays it's flipped to defensive mids, defenders and keepers. A question I have is are attackers not getting minutes because MLS teams won't play them or do MLS teams not play young American attackers because the best ones left for Europe? Coaches are sort of copycats and my best guess is if a few of the best attackers had stayed here and killed it every other team would be trying to get their own young attackers.
     
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    #34 bsky22, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
    The generally consistent theme is that the young players that play in MLS are physically gifted. Can you think of a young american playing in MLS other than LD, DMB and FA? EJ, Dempsey, Bradley, Szetela, Altidore, Agudelo, etc...

    The change from attackers to defenders is likely due to DP and XAM rules. When you spend millions on attacking players, you play them. The number of spots are reduced. Would LD and DMB be regular starters today? Not so sure, but assuming it is SJ and Chi, they got a shot.

    Edit: There are few in here...

    https://www.transfermarkt.com/major...Bis=2017&land_id=184&pos=&spielerposition_id=
     
    Giggsy1986 repped this.
  10. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Acosta: 6897 minutes by the time he was Akale's current age.

    Glad: Currently has 7753 minutes, and he's a month younger than Akale.

    Trusty: Currently has 3247 minutes, and he's a locked in starter. He's 19 months younger than Akale.

    Adams: 5907 minutes leading to a Leipzig transfer, and he's a full 25 months younger than Akale.

    Cannon: He has 3259 minutes for Dallas, he's a locked in starter, earned a USMNT call up, and is 17 months younger than Akale.

    McKenzie: Has 1719 minutes, is a locked in starter for Philly now, and 25 months younger than Akale.

    Durkin: 1634 minutes, still needs to cement a starting spot with DC, but he's 37 months younger than Akale.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd be surprised if any of those players have any serious role for our national team other than Adams and Cannon (both dependent on moving abroad) and possibly Durkin. I see much more hope for the younger guys like Busio and Bello, but same applies to them as the other guys. Until MLS proves they can produce multiple international level players and/or the ones that go abroad dont have steep learning curves, I dont want our kids in this league. Right now, there are only a few teams/coaches I would consider giving the shot to.

    CD: Glad, Trusty, McKenzie
    DMid: Adams, Durkin
    Outside Back: Cannon
     
  12. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is that really a fair argument though?

    You're saying that you won't trust MLS until they produce multiple international level players, but how about we consider how each player would have done in Europe vs here? And then, consider that if these players are sold to Europe, not only will they have undoubtedly more minutes in MLS then in whatever top level league they would have gone to, but MLS academies will get better/be more incentivized because of the return on their investment.

    Attacking players are another question. I'm asking specifically about defensive-oriented players. I doubt Miazga and Yedlin would both be in the positions they are now if they didn't start in MLS first.
     
  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Let's remember my trust doesnt matter.

    I'd encourage this and all similar discussions to get away from here vs there. They need to be much more specific. I had started another post a couple of days ago in the original thread but didnt post as didnt want to keep the tangent going. One of my points was it is Akale at Villareal, not some abstract club situation. I asked the poster that suggested Akale come back to MLS why they thought that was a good option and would also like to know specifically where in MLS that would be. Through allocation? The league claiming he is a Minnesota HGP?

    The league is getting plenty of players. Until they do something with them on a consistent basis, I'd prefer our players shoot to go abroad. If they want to sign a 16 yo player to a 3 year contract with no option, I've got no problem with that. In addition to developing the players, I'd like them to sell them when the time is right and not hold out for every last dollar. The question then becomes are they prepared for playing abroad?

    MLS continues to improve, but the biggest thing a young player get in the league is playing against adults. That is maybe important for some, but probably not the most important thing for many 16-20 year olds. Playing the "right" way in a u19 and then 3rd/4th division is probably better for their development.

    I think NYRB and SEA served Miazga and Yedlin well, but know reason both couldnt have climbed through a club abroad and probably would have learned the things they needed all along instead of needing crash courses on parts of their games after they were 20. It is a problem that they were told they needed to be better with the ball and Yedlin had to spend a season being "taught" how to defend.
     
    Giggsy1986 repped this.
  14. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Is starting in World Cup qualifiers a serious role? How about being ona team that wins the Gold Cup? Because, Acosta's already done that.
     
  15. Rahbiefowlah

    Rahbiefowlah Member+

    Oct 22, 2001
    Las Vegas
    This thread is pollution.
     
    taylor and butters59 repped this.
  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I am talking about the core 30+ guys that are considered for the world cup.

    Acosta's time is limited to Sarachan being in charge and hoping young players dont develop, in my opiinion. I could care less that he has GC winners medal. I dont see him having international quality potential and dont expect much from our team if he is playing. The same way I dont view Gordon as major contributor to our program.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Thankfully, it is finally contained!!!
     
    Rahbiefowlah repped this.
  18. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    You sure like caveats.
     
    gogorath, superdave and Mario Balotelli repped this.
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Where are the caveats? It is the top 30 or so players that are considered for the WC. I actually think it is smaller.
     
  20. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Define that please. I mean, not define it like a chemical formula. I know you can't be that precise. Just give us an idea why, for example, Clint Dempsey doesn't count. Why doesn't Carlos Bocanegra count. Why doesn't Tim Howard count.
     
    gogorath and ielag repped this.
  21. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like him or not he's received caps from Klinsman, Arena and Sarachan.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    understood.... klinsmann mostly as an Olympic eligible outside back. I guess if garber becomes coach he might still looks. I dont see anyone thinking he is a top 30 player in two years, no matter who is coach.

    I dont expect much from the 23 yo guys in MLS because I dont think they are good enough, dont see the potential for improvement, and have seen no signs of them taking their games to a higher level. I've dialed back expectations for Hyndman due to his lack of progress, but still see him with a much higher probability than guys like acosta, Delgado and Roldan.
     
  23. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Acosta is hard to peg right now. He was on a big upward trajectory, got his cup of coffee at left back and was getting a few looks in midfield but then had the sports hernia injury. He seems to have recovered but I've noticed he seems to have lost some top end speed. He was never a burner but he seems kind of slow at the moment. If he gets the speed back and a move to Europe he can still get a lot better. Same with the other 22-23 year olds. None of them are finished and with experience and just getting stronger they will all be in the hunt for spots. They better because the younger players may knock them all out of the way (don't we say that every cycle?).
     
  24. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    For me goalkeepers do not count..... Dempsey, in my opinion, took two years minimum to develop at Fulham before he really became a star. Bocanegra was nothing more than average at best on the world stage.

    Donovan at 19 was good enough to walk into most teams in the world and be a difference maker... Pulisic is the only one since that has been similar. That is my "Player of Note" definition.

    I will actually put Beasley on a higher level than Dempsey. Pre Knee injury he was one of the brightest young stars in Europe.

    John O'Brien was in the process of being bought by Barcelona before he had the injury post World Cup in 2002'

    Tony Sanneh had multiple offers in from Arsenal post 2002 yet Hertha Berlin rejected all of them. Then.... Tony hurt his back...

    Dempsey for me is one of the rarest types of professional soccer players, the man never even had a position yet through sheer hard work earned everything that he got. I just don't think it's possible for us to rely on that as a development model.

    I just think this is the standard that should be our expectation and frankly, we are falling short on a drastic pace. Which is why I still have hope for a 21-year-old who has been battling it out in Spain and literally breaking paths that no American player has ever broken before.
     
  25. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My God that is some Grade A butthurt.
     
    Sandon Mibut repped this.

Share This Page