Positioning w/ Dual Whistle

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Sam_C, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    After working my first few dual-whistle NFHS games I found two positions that were particularly concerning. These questions may seem basic to those of you who are veterans, but I have received slightly ambiguous answers from the referees I have asked in person. I'm interested in how you all position yourselves in these situations? Keep in mind, these situations are assuming competent players who are capable of moving the ball faster than any one person can run (of course everything is easier with a slow pace-of-play).

    In this first image, the ball is in an area close to the lead official when the defenders win possession and launch a quick counter-attack along the blue arrows. You start in the area where 'trail' is marked in order to 'box in' the play in the far corner; how do you follow the ball upfield while maintaining a good view? Do you get on your horse wide and hope you can catch the play? Do you stay narrow and follow from behind?

    [​IMG]
    In this second image, you are the lead. Obviously, this is where the 3 man system is a blessing. But in a 2 man system do you allow yourself to be screened by the 2ld in order to get offside correct, or do you cut the corner towards the goal line so that you have a clearer view of the play in the far corner even though you no longer have a way to accurately determine offside?[​IMG]
     
  2. YoungRef87

    YoungRef87 Member

    DC United
    United States
    Jan 5, 2018
    In the first image, I would try to swing wide to get a good angle and not become mixed up in the center of active play. Also, you want to get in a good position to see offside, so going wide would definitely help with that.

    On the second image, I would take a couple peeks around the 2ld to see what is going on. But in that situation, if your partner is not in good shape, you are pretty much on your own.
     
  3. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    I don't understand the first one. Please elaborate a bit. Especially, was "trail" the trail as play was going right to left and now is transitioning back to lead going left to right, or no?

    In the second one, you'll only be screened momentarily. Maintain your position to judge offside but micro-adjust to keep a view of play. Your trail partner will also have a view of play (we hope).
     
  4. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    Yeah, you're exactly right. 'You' start as a 'trail' and then become the lead as the counter-attack is launched.
     
  5. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    #5 Bubba Atlanta, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    Horse. But you're backing out hard as soon as you see possession has changed. Anticipation is important.

    And I might add that what you depict is a fairly aggressive position for a trail referee. If you're going to get up in there, you better have the horse to get you out.
     
    Rufusabc, Sam_C and 65GT350 repped this.
  6. 65GT350

    65GT350 Member

    Jun 25, 2015
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In image 1 I suggest you don’t get so deep and central with competent players. Give them the space and get a good view. The level and style of play of the players and the strengths of your partner will dictate your best position. If you do get caught deep I suggest taking the best line for the play. Sometimes it is getting wide immediately and other times you are better off taking more of a solo line until you can get wide.

    In image 2 I am of the opinion that it will be rare that the ball and the 2LD will be blocking your view. Just remember to transition to the ball once it becomes the offside line. So I prefer to keep an eye on the players in the corner. Most services from the corner will be negative so offside is no longer your issue.

    I am also assuming that most of these games are Varsity and that they are being played on turf with football lines which help with your offside calls.
     
  7. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    Understood, thanks for the advice. The jamboree where I got in these positions was girls varsity, so while every assessor I worked with urged me to pinch in towards the position I described, it seems like it may be wise to be less aggressive if/when I'm working a faster game.
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll focus on the first example. I understand the temptation to get deep as the trail (similar to where a ref would be on a diagonal), but with good players you need to remember that you have no failsafe when the counter comes. That's why I generally stay near level with the most forward attacker. This leads to the inevitable problem in a dual which is the foul in the middle of the field when you're both 25 yards away. It happens. Make the best call you can. But you need to be in a good position for the counter attack since any offside and foul decision lies with you. There's no AR to rescue you if you get caught.
     
    Sam_C and Bubba Atlanta repped this.
  9. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    With a competent partner, I tell him in the pre-game that if you see my back, it’s your call on all fouls behind me until I level out. There are times on a quick counter where you have to turn and go, and you are not going to be able to see anything but the 2ld on that counter. Your partner, if competent, will handle the fouls that inevitably happen while you are in that sprint.

    On a boys varsity match, you have to start moving backwards BEFORE the ball is turned over!

    I sometimes on a clean pass with no offside, let everyone pass me then catch up. That way if my partner cant catch up, I at least have the more serious foul than maybe OS.

    The “coffin corner” also is very difficult looking across the line and finding ball and players. What I do is come in as far as the attacking winger, and therefore cut the distance needed to see. Also, your partner has also cut in from midfield and is deeper as well.

    This description of partners is a fantasy that may happen once a week.
     
    Sam_C repped this.
  10. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    Agree with all; in the first you are going to run to try to get OS parallel. Regardless of that success, the good news is that you are going to be right on top of the play for fouls.

    In the second, you will probably be best playing off the shoulder of the far side attacker--the closer he is to the goal, the better for you. You really can't give up that spot to get closer to the play. A good trail ref will have everything inside that marked oval. (Yes, the probability of that is well south of 50%. ) If you do have to make a call over there, get ready to jog across the goal mouth as you blow the whistle--to show the colors. (Or just hide like a turtle in its shell, and let it go.)
     
  11. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    In my opinion and experience, as the trail (now lead) in the first scenario, I will make a judgment about whether I can get outside in time to see play from there or whether they're starting too far ahead for me to catch up, in which case I'll stay more or less directly behind them. In either case, it is unlikely that offside will what I need to see because you are almost always going to have only one attacker making the run. It's almost always fouls that are the real issue, so being directly behind them isn't that bad a position. So it really comes down to how fast you are, compared to the players.

    In the second case, the lead should stay with offside, as well as dealing with any attacker-goalkeeper issues after a cross. The trail is responsible for what happens in the corner. Each official's area of primary responsibility is a right triangle described by the touchline behind them, the goal line at their end and a line between the corner flag at the far side of their their goal line and the corner flag at the far end of their touchline. The lead referee should never have to cross in front of the goal. Yes, that means you may need to go deep as the trail, depending on the risk level as you see it. This is why they always say that you need to run more in a dual than in DSC.
     
  12. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    Thanks to everyone for the advice, I have a much better idea of where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be watching for in those situations.

    The common theme I'm hearing is that duals with the wrong partner can be problematic regardless of any one individual's work-rate. I'm going to divert this post to ask a new question: What adjustments do you guys make when you have a partner that is not pulling their weight ('hiding like a turtle in its shell' does not count :p)?
     
  13. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    I love duals with a partner who doesn't treat the center line like a barrier he can't cross and/or whose shoes aren't glued to the touchline.
     
  14. BrianD

    BrianD Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jun 29, 2018
    If the partner is young/teachable, have some discussions with him/her on coverage theory and what you plan to do to help the partner and what they can do to help you. If the partner is not teachable, your easy options are to inform the assignor, or decline games with this partner.

    If none of that is an option, try to learn what that partner's capability is and be willing to risk putting yourself slightly out of position to prevent them from being majorly out of position. Most people who matter will notice you doing the extra work and understand that mistakes will be a result of that.
     
    voiceoflg repped this.
  15. 65GT350

    65GT350 Member

    Jun 25, 2015
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You always have a choice of declining a game or putting a block on a referee if you don't want to work with a referee who you feel doesn't pull their weight.

    I tend to work harder. If that means expanding my zone, calling foul throw ins because my partner calls them, apologizing to my partner for either calling or not calling the foul. Whatever it takes to get through 70-80 minutes of soccer that day/night and enjoy the game that they obviously love just as much as we do otherwise they would not be out there.

    I am not saying you need to work with those that aren't pulling their weight I am just saying that some referees are pulling as much as they can and as a teammate we need to recognize their effort and adapt.
     
    jazehr, Bubba Atlanta and Law5 repped this.
  16. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    These discussions make me happy the area I am at that does NFHS is strictly DSC. They also have like over 200 referee roster and a lot of referees are older and retired:eek:
     
  17. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    #17 Sam_C, Sep 4, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    Perhaps I came off the wrong way. I am new to duals, so I am not try
    I used to despise the fact that referees seemed to miss so much using the dual system in my high school games, but as a player you never realise how much the dual system is compromising; we always assumed that it was just the age of the referees that was holding them back while paying no mind to the fact that there was two referees instead of three. The reason I made this post was that I now have the experience of working my ass off in a two-man system three games in a row without being able to see as much of the game as I would like. Consider me jealous of your area ;)
     
  18. ArgylleRef

    ArgylleRef Member

    Jan 23, 2004
    Lansing, KS
    @Law5 Did anybody ever codify those discussions of how to properly run a Dual System from the old SOCREF-L? I learned a ton from those, but nobody else these days seems to know any of it. It's like they think they assigned two ARs with a whistle to these games. They look at me like I'm insane when I suggest that the trail should get into a position like a CR. Or heaven forbid they leave the security of the touch line.
     
    voiceoflg repped this.
  19. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Do you mean the NFHS rule book, beginning on page 83?

    I do have plans for a booklet on the dual system but I have to admit that it's probably a ways down my 'to do' list. I'm thinking something like the old USSF "Guide to Procedures" book or the FIFA "Practical Guidelines for Match Officials" section of the Laws of the Game.
     
    Bubba Atlanta repped this.
  20. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    I'll tell you a story from long ago. You might keep it in mind in case you ever run across a dual 'partner' (I use the term loosely) like this - but I hope you never do. After the match I immediately emailed the assignor, told him what happened, and said 'never again with this guy.'

    I had been reffing for some 15-20 years, and high school for 10 or more. I'm Caucasian, relatively small in statue. Don't recall whether the match was boys or girls, doesn't matter. 'Partner' was a large Hispanic, probably weighed 50 pounds more than me. He arrived just in time to say "Hello" and flip the coin, he was the designated senior official.

    Ten or so minutes into the match the ball was in play at his end and I was probably half way between his goal line and the halfway line. I saw him motioning me to move back, away from the play. ???? Ball came my direction and we carried on. Same thing a few minutes later. And a third time. With a few minutes left in the first half there was the first corner kick at his near corner, and I moved down close to the PA. He blew his whistle, stopped the corner kick, and yelled to me. "Back to the middle" and waved me back. Not wanting to create a scene for the players and spectators of the two officials having an argument, I moved back. He kept waving, I kept moving. He stopped when I reached the halfway line. And so we continued.

    At halftime he told me, in no uncertain terms, that I was not to cross the halfway line. Period. I said that the NFHS book had diagrams showing the positions of the officials for the dual system. "Don't cross the halfway line!" In fairness, he didn't bother to cross it either.

    So, what does one do? Leave? Argue with him? Follow his instructions? Ignore his instructions? (It was clear from his previous actions that he would hold up the match if I ignored him.) All have a downside and none have an upside. I decided to follow his instructions would have the least impact upon the match for the players and spectators.

    It's very unlikely that this or something similar will happen to you - but you might think it over as to what your actions would be if it does. Food for thought.
     
  22. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I had a partner my second year of refereeing (and doing high school games) tell me after the game that he didn't like my coming on "his" half of the field. This was a guy whose badge was sewn on to the shirt and it was four years out of date. He arrived five minutes before kickoff and took his time coming over to the field. I don't remember that he even spoke to me before the game or at half time. We may have been short of referees but he was not "invited" to return the next year.
     
  23. ArgylleRef

    ArgylleRef Member

    Jan 23, 2004
    Lansing, KS
    I think the NFHS rule book hints at good positioning if you are already familiar with those old discussions or you were taught right. But I see others point to diagram 1 with the L and the T right on the touch lines to justify sticking to them. Then, every diagram except CK and PK has the L and the T in opposite halves. Never mind that under Movement Patterns it says, "Penetration of 20-30 yards will help "box" the play and preclude any guessing or missed calls from the touchline." I don't think the 5 1/2 pages they devote to the dual system, much of which deals with who whistles for each restart, who's responsible for ball placement, and other troubling minutia, is entirely adequate.
     
  24. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    Which was another reason why I made this post. I did my homework like a good boy and read the NFHS rulebook around 3 times before my first dual games, but I still wasn't prepared for some of the situations that I was presented with. Regardless, I understand that it is impossible to cover everything in a rulebook and positioning/mechanics could easily have a book of its own.
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    From watching my daughter play JV, I understand that the proper position for the lead referee on a penalty kick is one to two steps onto the field right next to the goal post . . .:confused:
     
    IASocFan and ArgylleRef repped this.

Share This Page