News: The best performance in a World Cup: Pele vs Maradona vs Cruyff

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Louis Soccer, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Just read the post you just quoted..
    I have no problem with Pele being superior in certain things. It is you the one who refuses to see anything in Maradona's favor. You asked about it so I looked and I found what you asked.When I asked you about Jairzinho's fouls in 1970, you remained silent.
     
  2. Louis Soccer

    Louis Soccer Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Apr 17, 2017
    I have not denied the skills of Maradona, I have only criticized the exaggerations about the Argentine and I have reacted to the pettiness over Pele, which for me is the best of all.

    In 1970, Jairzinho received 4.3 fouls per game and Pele 3.3 fouls.
    In 1986 Maradona received 7.6 fouls per game and Valdano 2.3 fouls.
    Jairzinho 1970 averaged 8.2 dribbles per game, Maradona 1986 made 7.9, Pelé 1970 made 2.7 and Maradona 1990 made 1.8.
    The low score of Jairzinho in 1974, (as Pele 1970 and Maradona 1990) is another reference, that age has to do with the greater or less number of dribbles.

    It seems that Maradona was the focus of the fouls, but I explained that his game was individualistic and provocative, he could receive fewer fouls if he was more associated with his teammates. I also explained that in Pele's years the faults were more lethal, with the appearance of the cards, the lethality decreased, but the number of faults (systematic) increased. PuckVanHeel presented a very interesting study of that.
     
  3. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    What happens to perceptions if Menotti decides to pick the young Maradona for the 1978 World Cup after all. Then the 1990 final goes the other way?
     
  4. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Or what if Netherlands wins 1974 as they deserved to, then Cruyff does play in 1978 and Rensenbrink's shot hit the post and goes in instead of out?
     
  5. Caspian

    Caspian Member

    Sep 15, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I suppose you are over prioritising the aspects of finesse and refinement in football.I don't deny that these qualities are definitely nice to have as footballers and very pleasing to watch as spectators.However,the larger issue or the main focus of the sport is something else.These qualities become secondary or do not matter after a certain point.It is also an issue that is very subjective.
    Coming to DM's fk's they are indeed beautiful.I already know his fk skills.I watched a few more videos.No one is in any doubt about his skill in that.He curls it magnificently.Yet as you keep watching them you feel a sense of monotony setting in.DM keeps curling them and curling them and curling them.As many as 90 p.c.of his fk's belong to this category.Of course nothing wrong in that.
    I also saw Pele's fk's since your comparison is between them.I could immediately see that Pele was taking them in various ways.His two world cup fk's are different to each other as well.There are other fk's and some as you said in your post 'that enters right in the corner of the goal mouth,' some of them just rolled on the ground and entered home,some were banana style fk's,some were,again using your word here,'torpedoes' they were all about power,some were lob style fk's.
    It's not just beauty that you want to see in fk's.You also want to see/assess the intelligence and versatility of the player when he takes set pieces.These qualities stand out in Pele fk's.
    Across the three world cups that DM played he took many fk's.All were refined/beautiful but none went in.Whereas Pele has two fk goals.In the sport of football DM's failed fk's have no value regardless of how exquisite they happen to be.
    So what are we discussing here?Finesse/refinement are aspects that we can admire and talk for days in leisure in a post match situation but when the match is on/happening something else is more important and that is what decides the outcome.
    Besides,Pele could take fk's in his weaker foot and score too.
    Hence,when you compare a few good qualities of one footballer too another who is so accomplished/complete than the former then the comparison itself becomes redundant.
    All said and done,there are now so many videos that show Pele's touch and individual technique that are,to say the least,magnificent.You can watch them in your free time and if you are still not convinced then its just your opinion.
    Personally for me it is intelligence,versatility and innovativeness that i consider to be beautiful and ahead of elegance/finesse/refinement.
     
    Louis Soccer repped this.
  6. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    That is why I was asking your opinion about how you see Pele and Maradona in terms of elgance, finesse, refinement, etc. As subjective as it may be, have you ever heard anybody say there was more finesse, touch and refinement to Pelé's game than to Maradona's? Needless to say, this is not the same as saying that Pele was never seen pulling out a finesse move or that Maradona's every move and action was an elegant refined one...
    You make it clear that it is not an important aspect for you and that is fine. To me it is intrinsic to individual technique and I do value it. But just in case, you also dont think Maradona had an advantage in that aspect, right?
     
  7. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    You thinking Pele is the best of all is perfectly fine by me. Is there anything you think Maradona was better than him, or is a win for Pele in every single aspect for you?

    Despite the alleged protecion gained by offensive players in comparison to the Pele days, Maradona 1986 was fouled on average as much as Jairzinho and Pele combined in 1970... Wow.. You will spare Pele while undermining Maradona saying Pele was smarter and Maradona individualistic and provocative... But then there is Jairzinho, who dribbled even more than Maradona 86 aparently, therefore playing equaly individualistic and provocative football in your view yet not getting fouled nearly as much. Him you will spare saying it was the savageness of the fouls rather than the number... C'mon..
    And comparing Pele 1966 and Maradona 1986 initial WC game, Pele got fouled 7 times against Bulgaria. Maradona was fouled 7 times in the first half alone against Korea, inluding the iconic kick across the legs at knee height, a kick in the shin and getting chopped from behind. Only in the sixth foul he was target of, a hit in the face after a nutmeg, the ref showed a yellow...
    BTW, dont see much fouling in the game vs Mexico in 1962, nor in the footage of his games in 1958... Neither extremely violent nor numerous...
     
  8. Louis Soccer

    Louis Soccer Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Apr 17, 2017
    In my opinion Pelé was superior in scoring ability, shooting efficiency and creation of scoring opportunities. In the others; Dribbling, passes and tackles are pretty even, each with its own characteristics, of which it is the best.
    In the World Cup: (Performance according to Opta Sports)

    Scoring capacity: Pelé > Maradona
    Shots: Pelé > Maradona
    Passes: Pelé > Maradona
    Chances created: Pelé > Maradona
    Dribble: Maradona > Pele
    Tackles: Maradona > Pelé
    Pelé has a 4 to 2 advantage over Maradona in the WC.

    The intelligence and the versatility are fundamental to make decisions that favor the collective game, for that reason Pele 1970 has more chances created, more passes and better precision of passes than Maradona 1986. The Argentine got drunk more in the dribble and in retaining the ball by his individualism, ergo, received more faults. Jairzinho 1970, could complete a little more dribbling than Maradona 1986, but he did it in fewer attempts, his specific mission was the overflow and definition, not the creation of game, that was done by Pele, Gerson, Tostao and Rivelino. The greater number of dribbles is not associated with more fouls, individualism and unnecessary dribbling if they are.

    The comparison of Pele 1966 vs Maradona 1986, was about dribbling, against the same opponent and at the same age. You try to entangle the subject putting the fouls of the match against Korea. (?)
     
    Gregoire1 repped this.
  9. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    I will let this be the last word, I am tired and dont see the point.
     
  10. Louis Soccer

    Louis Soccer Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Apr 17, 2017
    Pele was better than Maradona and Messi at the World Cup:

    GOALS
    Pele, 14 games, 12 goals = average of 0.86 per match
    Maradona, 21 games, 8 goals = average of 0.38 per game
    Messi, 18 games, 6 goals = average of 0.33 per game
    Pele scored one goal every 108 minutes, Maradona every 244 minutes and Messi every 248
    Goals: 1. Pele, 2. Maradona, 3. Messi

    ASSISTS
    Pele, 14 games, 8 assists = average of 0.57 per game
    Maradona, 21 games, 8 assists = average of 0.38 per match
    Messi, 18 games, 5 assists = average of 0.27 per match
    Pele made an assist every 158 minutes, Maradona every 244 minutes and Messi every 315
    minutes.
    Assists: 1. Pele, 2. Maradona, 3. Messi

    As for passes, dribbles and chances created can only be compared with Pele 1970, Maradona 1986 and Messi 2014, because there is no more data of the Brazilian
    PASSES
    Pele, passes per game =41.5, Passing accuracy = 83.9 %
    Messi, passes per game = 40.5, Passing accuracy = 80.3 %
    Maradona, passes per game = 37.4, Passing accuracy =79..8 %
    Passes: 1. Pele, 2. Messi, 3. Maradona

    CHANCES CREATED
    Pele, Chances per game = 4.7 (28/6)
    Maradona, Chances per game = 3.9 (27/7)
    Messi, Chances per game = 3.3 (23/7)
    Chances created: 1. Pele, 2.Maradona, 3. Messi

    DRIBBLES
    Maradona, (53/90) dribbles per game = 12.9, success rate = 58.9 %
    Messi, (33/59) dribbles per game = 8.4, success rate = 55.9 %
    Pele, (16/29) dribbles per game = 4.8, success rate = 55.2 %
    Dribbles: 1. Maradona, 2. Messi, 3. Pele

    Pele was better in goals, assists, passes and opportunities created. Maradona was the better at dribbling.
    In World Cup: 1. Pele, 2. Maradona, 3. Messi

    Fuente: Opta Sports
     
  11. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    #61 Sir_Artur, Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
    Not blasphemy in any way. Cruyff is as good as Pele in orchestration if not better, no matter Pele is god. :whistling:

    EDIT: I think Pele70 was not as "omnipresent" and "omnipotent" orchestrator as Cruyff74. I am talking about overall career and I was teasing.
    In overall, Pele and Cruyff was not that different except Pele's prolificness.
     
    Louis Soccer repped this.
  12. DFTB24

    DFTB24 Member

    Jul 16, 2014
    There's a website called Rovesciata volante (though not an official source) has some excellent ratings.
    Only selected highest grades from a few matches WCs plus some old European club games.
    'Almost' all ratings for Pele, Cruyff, Maradona and Beckenbauer matches at the World Cups with a good summary.
     
    Gregoire1 and PDG1978 repped this.
  13. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Passes:
    Messi 10: 64.20
    Pele 70: 41.50
    Messi 14: 41.29
    Maradona 86: 37.43

    Aerial duels:
    Maradona 86: 0.43
    Messi 10: 0.40
    Pele 70: 0.33
    Messi 14: 0

    Tackles:
    Maradona 86: 1.57
    Pele 70: 1.50
    Messi 10: 1.40
    Messi 14: 1.29

    Interceptions:
    Maradona 86: 0.86
    Pele 70: 0.50
    Messi 10: 0.40
    Messi 14: 0.29

    Fouls won:
    Maradona 86: 7.57
    Pele 70: 3.33
    Messi 10: 3.00
    Messi 14: 2.57

    Fouls conceded:
    Messi 10: 0.60
    Messi 14: 0.86
    Maradona 86: 1.43
    Pele 70: 3.83

    Goals:
    Maradona 86: 0.71
    Pele 70: 0,67
    Messi 14: 0.57
    Messi 10: 0

    Shots on target:
    Messi 10: 2.40
    Maradona 86: 1.86
    Pele 70: 1.67
    Messi 14: 1.14

    Shots:
    Pele 70: 4.33
    Messi 10: 4.20
    Maradona 86: 3.14
    Messi 14: 2.86

    Crosses:
    Maradona 86: 1.14
    Messi 14: 0.29
    Messi 10: 0.20
    Pele 70: 0

    Chances created:
    Pele 70: 4.67
    Maradona 86: 3.86
    Messi 14: 3.29
    Messi 10: 3.20

    Assists:
    Pele 70: 1.00
    Maradona 86: 0.71
    Messi 10: 0.20
    Messi 14: 0.14

    Dribbles:
    Maradona 86: 7.57
    Messi 10: 6.60
    Messi 14: 6.57
    Pele 70: 2.67

    If you give 4 points to the first place, 3 to the second, 2 to the third and 1 to the fourth, the score is:

    Maradona 86: 42 pts
    Pele 70: 34 pts
    Messi 10: 33 pts
    Messi 14: 21 pts

    Maradona 86 was better than Pele 70 in aerial duals, tackles, interceptions, fouls won, fouls conceded, goals, shots on target, crosses... and dribbles
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  14. Caspian

    Caspian Member

    Sep 15, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Good work there.
    Pele 70 was better than DM86 in number of passes,pass accuracy,pass accuracy in opposition half,shots taken,chances created and assists.
    Both scored an equal number of lawful goals as per the rules of association football.
    Regarding crosses DM86 and Argentina could as a means of strategy afford to make crosses with players like Valdano 6'2,Burruchaga 5'11,Batista 6'1 and Ruggeri 6'0.
    4 goals out 9 were scored using 'cross header' tactic by the arg team in 86.
    Pele 70 didn't have that option as Jairzhino 5'8,Tostao 5'8,Rivellino 5'7 and Gerson 5'7 were not tall players.So Pele very likely wasn't making crosses as a means of strategy.
    This has been mentioned in one of Bella Kona's videos.
    So leaving out goals then DM86 was better than Pele70 in 8 categories and Pele in six though Pele had good reasons for not making crosses.
    It close between the two though one was in his peak and the other past it and one 25 yrs of age and the other 29.
    Age is a very significant factor for athletes.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  15. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Agree, did the same buy without crosses and added Cruyff

    Passes:
    Messi 10: 64.20
    Cruyff 74: 47.43
    Pele 70: 41.50
    Messi 14: 41.29
    Maradona 86: 37.43

    Aerial duels:
    Maradona 86: 0.43
    Messi 10: 0.40
    Pele 70: 0.33
    Cruyff 74: 0.29
    Messi 14: 0

    Tackles:
    Maradona 86: 1.57
    Pele 70: 1.50
    Messi 10: 1.40
    Cruyff 74: 1.29
    Messi 14: 1.29

    Interceptions:
    Cruyff 74: 1.86
    Maradona 86: 0.86
    Pele 70: 0.50
    Messi 10: 0.40
    Messi 14: 0.29

    Fouls won:
    Maradona 86: 7.57
    Cruyff 74: 4.29
    Pele 70: 3.33
    Messi 10: 3.00
    Messi 14: 2.57

    Fouls conceded:
    Messi 10: 0.60
    Messi 14: 0.86
    Maradona 86: 1.43
    Cruyff 74: 1.86
    Pele 70: 3.83

    Goals:
    Maradona 86: 0.71
    Pele 70: 0,67
    Messi 14: 0.57
    Cruyff 74: 0.43
    Messi 10: 0

    Shots on target:
    Messi 10: 2.40
    Maradona 86: 1.86
    Cruyff 74: 1.86
    Pele 70: 1.67
    Messi 14: 1.14

    Shots:
    Pele 70: 4.33
    Messi 10: 4.20
    Maradona 86: 3.14
    Messi 14: 2.86
    Cruyff 74: 2.43

    Chances created:
    Cruyff 74: 5.14
    Pele 70: 4.67
    Maradona 86: 3.86
    Messi 14: 3.29
    Messi 10: 3.20

    Assists:
    Pele 70: 1.00
    Maradona 86: 0.71
    Cruyff 74: 0.43
    Messi 10: 0.20
    Messi 14: 0.14

    Dribbles:
    Maradona 86: 7.57
    Messi 10: 6.60
    Messi 14: 6.57
    Cruyff 74: 4.86
    Pele 70: 2.67

    When is a draw for example in shots on target I give Messi 10 5pts, Maradona 86 and Cruyff 74 4pts, Pele 70 3pts and Messi 14 2pts.

    Score:
    Maradona 86: 47 pts
    Pele 70: 39 pts
    Messi 10: 38 pts
    Cruyff 74: 36 pts
    Messi 14: 24 pts
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  16. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
  17. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    The difference is that Pelé was running and dribbling less in 1970 (no surprise). Make one about Neymar or Jairzinho to get higher scoring, for example.

    Point is that Pelé highest performance was in the biggest matches, specially against Italy and not vs some random match in the group stage like Messi in 2010.
     
  18. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Messi (Argentina, Barcelona) and Maradona (82-86-90) were dribbling more than Pelé (half-injured 66 and post-peak 70), that is nothing new tho. Maradona, specially, since he was the typical ball-hog many times.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-is-better-than-maradona-but-maybe-not-pele/

    Point is if include Mexico match in 1962 and the WC1958 Pelé could be better in some stats, as well as Garrincha in 1962 would probably perform better than Jairzinho in terms of dribbling and ball-carrying.
     
    Legolas10 repped this.
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
  20. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Maradona in 1990 was seriously injured in the ankle, it does not make sense to see his statistics, but in 1994 he has incredible good numbers, completed 12 dribbles in 174 minutes, 6.21 pg
     
  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    I did it only for Goals and non-shot expected goals (that includes a lot of things) making it less redundant.

    Some Brazilian players

    [​IMG]

    Non-shot expected goals are an estimate of how many goals a team “should” have scored based on non-shooting actions they took around the opposing team’s goal: passes, interceptions, take-ons and tackles. For example, we know that intercepting the ball at the opposing team’s penalty spot results in a goal about 9 percent of the time, and a completed pass that is received at the center of the six-yard box leads to a goal about 14 percent of the time. We add these individual actions up across an entire match to arrive at a team’s non-shot expected goals. Just as for shot-based expected goals, there is an adjustment for each action based on the success rates of the player or players taking the action (both the passer and the receiver, in the case of a pass).
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/methodology/how-our-club-soccer-predictions-work/
    http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.com/2018/05/non-shot-xg-models.html
     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Elite destroyers

    [​IMG]

    Defensive_z = tackles_z + interceptions_z + clearances_z + blocks_z + aerials_z - fouls_z (fouls commited)

    Seems that Dunga was a defensive monster but also a very good ball progressor.



    Alemão also on the list. So, Careca was a legit world class forward (probably no less than some Forlan or Suarez and arguably better) and Alemão a world class defensive midfielder (no inferior to Busquets, Kante or Casemiro of nowadays).

    Napoli was actually a very strong team for periods.
     
  24. Caspian

    Caspian Member

    Sep 15, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Pele vs Mex 62:10 shots including 1 goal,6 chances created including an assist and 10 clean tackles...what was he a forward or defender?
     

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