Re: Donovan I think most people can agree that Donovan is the best player the US has ever produced. So maybe it can be argued that he was under-appreciated, but not under-valued. He was excellent even at a very young age: —Won the Golden ball at the U-17 WC —Turned the San Jose Earthquakes from a last place team to MLS Cup Champions upon joining at age 18 To contrast, Dempsey, who will soon pass Donovan in total goals scored, did not join MLS until age 22, and quickly moved to a modest EPL team whereas Donovan willfully left a top Bundesliga academy and had doors open for high level clubs. There is a perception that Dempsey made more out of less talent, which is why he has always drawn less ire and perhaps more appreciation than Donovan. The point that the Jurgen/Jones sympathizers are making that I see value in is that sure, these guys can live the life they choose, and who are we to tell them how to live their lives? But if enough players in important positions make this their priority then we miss out on the World Cup. Especially for a country like the United States where the talent pool is thin to begin with. Thus the ire shown towards Bradley and Jozy. And the resurgence in appreciation of Jones (yes I understand the sacrifices Jones had to make were perhaps not as great as he was playing in his home country) I think we should really appreciate the sacrifices some of these players are making at young ages to go live in Europe often without family and in a foreign culture with a cut throat soccer development system and no promise of success. It is understandable why the US has this cultural dilemma with our players.
Pulisic does not yet show quite the same insight ON the ball, but I'd argue that he already does OFF the ball.
Nah, Jurgen Klinsmann infuriated people because he was a hack. Harping on pay-to-play is a good way to sound like a soccer journalist from 1998 and harping on the "Good ol' Boys" Illuminati is a good way to sound insane in general. Someone literally said "Jermaine Jones-types"? I guess Jurgen did his part by giving handouts to poverty-stricken youth like Jordan Morris and Julian Green.
Guys like Doyle think Klins was a "jackass" for, essentially, speaking the truth in blunt terms like many Europeans will do. The truth is inconvenient for the USSGOB/MLS/SUM power structure, and he had to be taken out. They got "their guy" with "their views" on who should be playing for the US ("Amurican" Americans), preferably from MLS and the result was the biggest disaster in modern US qualifying history. But..... at least Sunil, for all of his faults, realized a shake up was necessary. That is why he brought in the disrupter. Did he pick the RIGHT disrupter? Maybe not, but he also, in the end, did not have the courage to see his project through and crumbled to the pressure he got from the aforementioned triumvirate. Which was a shame cause I think JK was actually having a positive impact on the TD side of his job and we all now know he couldn't have done any worse than Bruce did in qualifying. The only silver lining in this whole debacle is that NOW we also all know that going back to the Old Guard is not a viable stratgery and that a true shake up of the whole system is needed. I guess we have all of the "jackasses": the furrienr coach one, the USSGOB coach one, the Economics Professor one, the MLS Executive one, the MLS Owners ones, the MLS/USSGOB journalist ones, and SUM; all to thank for finally exposing the fundamental flaws in our system for all to see. Now let's all get together and try to fix this crap.
Good post - I would slightly disagree that Landon Is far and away the best player we have produced. I think John O'Brien was a more complete player that had his career thwarted by injuries, but your point remains as JOB was overseas at Ajax at a young age.
Not true. Jones missed the 09-10 season after he made his US commitment. Your problem is you google stuff that you don't have the context for, misrepresent it , and in some cases seem to flat out lie. The fact is that Jermaine was not eligible to play for the US until the June 3, 2009 FIFA rule change. Jones who had been in contact with BB and Sunil (who knew that the rule change was under consideration) immediately filed for a change in federation. Jones had just finished the best season of his career where he was considered by many the best CM in the BuLi. His shin fracture diagnosis and surgery occurred months after his initial commitment to BB and Sunil. He returned to training with Schalke that fall. “Now that I have a chance to play for America, I want to play for the States,” Jones said Saturday in a telephone interview from Frankfurt. “Now with the new rule from FIFA, they said I can play for the States. I am one-half American and one-half German, and now I want to play for the U.S.” “We are not sure if the rule change is immediate, could happen in 60 days or what,” said Sunil Gulati, the president of the United States federation. “We’ve known about Jones, and Bob and I have talked with his representatives. But that was before the rule changed. We could benefit from this, but the details still need to be worked out.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/sports/soccer/16goal.html
That's exactly what I wrote: At the end of the 08-09 season, no one knew how serious his muscular problem was. But he was out of the German team for the WC, and that's when he switched. He even had some choice words about the system in Germany and hinted there was a certain nationalistic/racist undertone to his slight: https://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/jermaine-jones-comes-looking-for-america/ I never wrote that he switched because he couldn't play the 09-10 season, that's your invention. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of you following me around trying to disprove everything I write just because you dislike me. So, to the ignore bin you go. Goodbye.
It is still unclear if you know what consistent means. In a post of mine where I clearly delineate between achievement and talent, you reply with this... The whole point of what I wrote was to point your simplistic view of just focusing on achievements doesn’t come close to presenting the whole picture of a player. The achievement stats that you keep throwing out in a thread about a hard working/nosed deep central midfielder don’t add anything to the discussion that the OP and the rest are trying to have. So Why did you use the word “best”... it is vague and quite confusing. For someone who “consistently” is talking about achievements, it seems you would have just continued using that word. So you wanted to complicate the discussion by being unclear or you wanted claim LD was the best based on his achievements (like as that is who you were talking about). This first sentence is just a bunch of nonsense. You incorrectly state I don’t like there things and then add I question implying some I don’t think is true. I don’t dislike LD, MLS, or the ‘02/‘06/‘10 USMNT. I’m not going to waste my time, again, explaining my thoughts on those things. I also don’t have any problem with people talking about them, but there is a time and a place... it has a lot to do with the topic of the thread and forum that it is posted in. The fact that the most strident LD fans seem to be in the category of fans that don’t appreciate Jones isn’t that surprising. I’ve appreciated what all of those three thing are and having people acknowledge that they are bigger fans of players than the team would put me ahead on the last on. Again, the USMNT is my main focus. Their improvement has stalled and have begun to underachieve. I have been frustrated with them not raising their level since 2002. I have been concerned the negative impacts MLS has on the team for some time, but their actions from 2013 through 2017 show they have no concern for the national team and I am at odds with them for that. I have never been fan of how they leverage every bit of their power and play hard ball negotiating with players. I think mls and their media fit in the category of not appreciating Jermaine Jones. I find it sad and short sighted. He is the exact kind of player that they should have been wanting to have a role in the league once his career is over. That seems unlikely to me and would hope he gets a gig as commentator and speaks truthfully when discussing the league.
I remember when we were getting our first sniffs of JJ coming to America and seeing a highlight reel that the guys from youtube made. I was impressed with his passing on the video. That took a second seat to what he brought to the US team. He had heart. A strong desire to beat his opponents. Sure he had some careless tackles out there, but by no means would he back down from anyone. Right now, we have nobody out there who puts it all out there like he does.
Mexico respected LD because he brought it very time he played them... except his last game against them. I don’t understand this great intelligence LD had. Can you elaborate? Was it just better than his naive teammates or exceptional at the international soccer standard? Donovan’s physical tools were about as ideal as they could be for a soccer players, so not sure his physical tools are why people wouldn’t appreciate him. From my perspective and many folks I’ve spoken to about him, it is about his mentality and work rate. If he played every game like he did against Mexico or the 2013 Gold Cup, he have much fewer detractors. He had some particularly poor performances in big games and it was never clear which LD was going to show up. He wilted many times on big stages. I think there are people who judge him overly harshly and those ignore his limitations, but that most fans appreciate what he accomplished. Pulisic is already a more talented player and unfortunately wont be able to show it at the World Cup. CP’s Hex performances and production matched or exceeded all of LD’s three, with 2009 being the only one that matching is arguable.
There is very little he said that wasn’t true. A guy who leaned Soccer by watching MlS is going to call Klinsmann a hack? He was better and more decorated than any US player ever. He won a World Cup, and played many of the top leagues in the world. A top player doesn’t necesarily make him a good coach but he had more than enough experience to speak of what he saw as the short comings of soccer in the US. Someone might disagree on point here or there, but most of it was spot on. I’ll leave at that... Edit... whoops, I forgot to mention Wood, and a bunch of others that got injured.
He doesn’t show it, but it is hard to really assess given his roles (and age). He is so dangerous taking players on that it appears that his coaches are encouraging him to do that every chance he gets. His decision making seems to be improving when/how to and will likely continue as his role grows. We would have likely seen more with the national team if he wasn’t wasted out wide in away games. There were a number of games in the Hex that his decision making and passes were quite impressive.
Well, playing him as a full-distance wingback (what in Spanish is called "carrilero" but lacks a specialized term in English) means that Pulisic is very valued for his dribbling. Still, the creative part is lacking. I worry that a new coach may give up on CP at first and try other alternatives wide, and one of those may work better actually creating for the team, even if the player is not as good at dribbling and making "cool" plays. After all, it's a team sport.
Hahaha... I assume you are just trying to wind people up. He plays his role how his coach asks him to. I see no evidence why any coach would give up on him. If he wanted him to play differently, he has skills and willingness to do it. I’m not sure what you think he is lacking or what you mean by “Creative part” or “cool plays”. He has shown already that he is an effective creator in the BL. He became “the man” for our national team at 18.5 yo, except when that obnoxious, ignorant coach isolated him out wide. He seemed to do quite a bit when played centrally against concacaf teams. His game against Honduras in March was quite complete in my mind. He beat players, drew fouls, finished opportunities, switched fields, and set up both of the forwards with very well paced passes that at least might be labeled as creative. He continues to grow at a rapid pace and is a different player every six months.
He's not producing, bsky. Even if the papers and fans rate him tops, in this business you have to produce.
You are correct, and also not backing up your previous comments, that producing matters. His performances have fluctuated this season but his effort has been consistently high. I’m sure there are plenty of complicated stats that would show why he is rated highly. Apparently, every coach he has ever played for rate him too. My guess a lot of it has to do with his talent, age, work rate and ease in working with him. I don’t see the current coach or a new one replacing CP with yarmalenko or Phillip because they have twice as many G+A. While producing matters, it needs to be remembered that the game is a business and Dortmund are very focused on business side of things. I bet there are quite a few senior members of the club that would be making quite a bit of noise if “CP the investment” was camped on the bench. Maybe next time you could explain these confusing ideas of your about his lack of creativity and only a system player. It just seems so odd to me that you judge a 19 yo based an incredibly high standard, but just gush over the guy he was being compared to...
If you did not make things up in order to deliberately create a false impression you would not need to be corrected. You said with your bold emphasis: "Also, and this is not an attack on Jones, note how he only vowed to play for the USA once his career itself was on the balance. At that point he had no chance to play for Germany, and spent a full year not playing, just recovering." That is a flat out lie! Jermaine wanted to play for the US and had conversations with MB90, who was playing with BMG, in '08. Those conversations led to discussions with BB and Sunil before the FIFA rule change occurred. While we are setting the record straight, your assertion that BB had to talk with Schalke to allow JJ to play at GC2011 is also a lie. In fact, Blackburn held Jermaine's registration until June 30th. BB released the roster May 23rd and the Gold Cup concluded June 25th. Jones would have not been expected to report to Schalke until July and Schalke and Blackburn were still negotiating a sale until the first week in July when Schalke called it off. As another poster commented in the McKennie at Schalke thread, making things up seems to be your thing. If you stop making stuff up then posters will stop correcting you.
You want to see "identity politics" just wait until the woman I saw on ESPN yesterday is elected President of USS.