Finally -real root of stagnant US soccer development

Discussion in 'LA Galaxy' started by skydog, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I've argued for years on this forum that the fundamental problem with US Soccer development wasn't where most people were looking. It's not primarily a problem of poor youth coaching, or lack of advanced academies, poor college soccer environments, pay to play, etc. I gave my "proof" in the form of eye-opening experiences I had when coaching youth soccer, starting as an assistant coach for a rec team when my kid was 8. Every once in a while a kid would show up to try out for the team and he would already be playing a different game than the rest of the kids. And they were doing this despite never having had a real coach or even having played organized soccer. These boys either spent their toddler years growing up in a soccer-centric country or - and this is very important - just had a parent who did. The latter point shows that while growing up in a native soccer environment may be valuable it isn't necessary. For example one of these kids grew up in Chapel Hill but had a dad who was first generation Italian. Another one was from Venezuela of all places (since Venezuela is more baseball than soccer) but had moved to the US at age 3. These kids had developed their games playing in the house and backyards with their dads and uncles from age 2.

    Bottom line both grew up in the US but even at the ages of 8 to 10 these kids (and a few others) saw the game differently than their traditional counterparts. They had already developed a soft touch on the ball and didn't panic when they had the ball and opponents rushed at them. They had already been taught how to shield the ball with their tiny bodies and to escape pressure with moves like quick spin outs or going behind their plant foot. The fact that they had confidence in retaining the ball under pressure completely changed the game for them. They could wait for the pressure and escape it rather than having to kick the ball downfield and rely on athleticism to outrun or out-muscle. Sure some over-dribbled with their heads down but others saw the field better than anyone else. Anyway all of those were problems that could be solved.

    But developing touch and confidence in possession is like learning a language - start too late and you will never be on equal footing to someone who grew up speaking the language. In soccer having good youth coaches, good academies, reducing barriers to play, etc. all help but those solutions won't make up for the missed early development.

    Anyway the point is that I'm happy to see that finally someone is getting attention for this point of view. Hope his movement grows in the US:

    https://ussoccerplayers.com/2017/10...ment.html?mc_cid=a7d0a3fbc5&mc_eid=24d93e1717

    Brief intro from the article:
    Byer’s fundamental message: Great players are made not on the practice field, but in the home, and not by coaches but parents – and at far earlier ages than conventional wisdom would suggest.

    “Technique is the foundation,” said Byer in a 2015 appearance on the 3four3 podcast. “You have to have the technical component. Because you can be the best coach in the world and there’s very little you can teach a kid if they have no technical competency. “A majority of kids that play the game – I’m talking about the 7, 8, 9, 10-year-old age – are technically incompetent. They’re just not good enough technically. So they’re missing an entire part of the development phase.​
     
  2. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That's why in the Netherlands and places that have borrowed from their model, kids are trained in technique at the earliest possible opportunity.

    Yes, I know they didn't make the World Cup this time around, but nonetheless, despite their relatively small population, they churn out world class players with almost every new generation.

    This is also why I balk at pro/rel as the difference make in player development. The USSF needs a centrally-defined curriculum that determines what kids are taught and at what age. Youth participation is so prevalent that we should be able to develop that culture. Sure it's not quite the same as doing it in the home, but teaching it ASAP could be the first step in building that culture.
     
  3. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    #3 skydog, Oct 30, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    Another quote from the article about it going back to parents (really the main point of my post) teaching the skills to their toddler:

    American soccer tends to respond to setbacks like this year’s World Cup qualifying disaster with “space race”-type solutions. Blueprints! Master plans! National youth curriculum! Project 2010!

    In contrast, the greatness of Brazil, Spain, Italy, and the like is nurtured in youth environments that are strikingly unstructured. The soccer cultures of the global elite feature a widespread devotion to the sport at the familial level, where parents, no coaching gurus, build the foundation.

    “Those cultures are so ingrained in football or soccer that the parents, the fathers, are indeed the game-changer for the kids,” said Byer. “And if you look at any of the great players, whether it’s Ronaldo, Messi, Pele, Cruyff, the list just goes on, and you’ll find that 99.9 percent of these great players attribute their technical ability to who? It’s their fathers. It’s not the coaches.

    “Basically we [coaches] inherit the good players,” he said. “These kids, the reason that they’re so good, it’s not so much of what you’re doing in that school as much as it is what they’re doing away from the organized training sessions.”
     
  4. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    That's the issue. But how do you get American parents teaching their kids before 1st grade? This Tom Byer guy says he did it this way:

    So he ordered a case of the mini balls and put one or two in every room of his house, encouraging his child not to kick them, but “manipulate” them – to learn true mastery of the ball.

    “I could see just how quickly they became two-footed. I could see how quickly they fell in love with the game, because they found that they had some ability at a very, very young age.
    Ok, I promise I will quit quoting the article. I just think he is onto something and that we need to get to these kids before age 10. That's too late to develop great, natural soccer players. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it's no coincidence that Pulisic's grandfather is Croatian and surely taught his son (who was an American forward), who in turn taught Christian how to manipulate a ball - probably well before first grade.
     
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  5. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with the premise 100%, but not necessarily the conclusions:

    That is, I believe it's totally correct that great soccer players develop on their own time and are motivated by a passion for the sport that comes from early experiences with a close from a family member (usually Dad or an older brother) and being immersed in a culture where soccer is both ever-present and highly prestigious.

    The part I'm not sure about is how anyone would manufacture these circumstances for a large proportion of American kids. Byer gained some notoriety a few years ago for "overhauling" Japan's soccer culture...but that's probably overselling what he did. Rather unlike the US, Japan sustained a D1 league since the 50s and had exported great players to top leagues before the 90s. Japan also hosted the now defunct Intercontinental Cup (a tournament between the best clubs in CONMEBOL and UEFA) for more than 20 years. Hell, Byer ended up in Japan because he needed a place to play when the NASL folded. My point is, Japan had a relatively strong soccer culture, where there was already demand for the skills he was trying to teach. By contrast, the USA, 20 years after MLS kicked its first ball, doesn't air it's league playoffs in English. Why would young Americans want to read comics or watch TV shows teaching them to get good at a sport they don't even watch?

    How many Ari Lassiters are there out there? By that I mean young Americans born to a former player who achieved at a fairly high level as a pro in the sport of soccer? (We also have, by pure luck, George Weah's son in our youth set-up, so I guess that counts). How many sons of former pros do you think Mexico has? (to pick an example Galaxy fans should be able to guess easily.) We just have to accept that we're very, very new to this and I don't know that there is a get-rich-quick scheme that's going to apply here.
     
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  6. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #6 MPNumber9, Oct 31, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    To digress more and really bore you, there is a production factor in developmental economics known as human capital (or human capital knowledge): the stock of technical knowledge that humans (workers) within a producing society possess. That is, as opposed to "regular" capital (equipment, buildings etc.).

    To make this boring stuff relevant, let's say we are trying to "produce" world class soccer. Well, investing in capital (balls, fields, training facilities, stadia, uniforms, goals, gyms, training equipment, cleats, etc. etc.) is relatively easy; building human capital -- the experience, skills, knowledge, habits, expertise and creativity gained by actually doing a thing -- takes many more years to develop. This is a good analogy for soccer, which is extremely human capital intensive, IMO: even to gain a high level of expertise at interpreting the game as a viewer (to say nothing of playing it or coaching) takes lots of practical experience -- watching many games.

    Human capital knowledge is not easily transferred (i.e. replaced by rigorous Googling, availability of textbooks or even direct instruction) which is why countries that have access to the same level of technology and information (via the Internet) as the US will still take generations to catch up to us in things like nuclear power development, certain aspects of engineering, or animated film production because the stock of human capital -- people who have spent their lives immersed in not only doing the thing, but teaching it to others and talking about it over lunch with many other humans with the same experience -- is relatively low in those places.

    Well, that's how we are with soccer -- our level of human capital is low relative to other countries that have just been doing it for decades longer. Also consider that human capital grows slowly, but is cumulative: that is, each generation of humans builds on what was learned by the generation before, accumulating more and better knowledge more quickly each time. I think it's just going to take time. Having great players is just one piece; to have expertise across all areas (coaching, youth development, refereeing, analysis/commentary) is something the best countries developed over decades.
     
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  7. 73Bruin

    73Bruin Member+

    Jul 12, 2008
    Torrance, California
    #7 73Bruin, Oct 31, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    FWIW, my youngest daughter spent 2 summers as a soccer instructor mostly for kids ranging from 2 to 6. Her observations about kids from soccer playing parents and cultures tie with what you are saying.

    It was my observation that older soccer playing siblings were even better better if for no other reason than the amount of time they spent together.

    Finally, if it is the parents, you have to wonder if the millions of girls whose primary/only organized sport was/is soccer will have an impact. If so the USMNT of 2038 will owe a huge debt of gratitude to the USWNT (e.g. a 10 year old girl in 1999 is only 28 today and any children she may have are likely to be no older than 7 today).
     
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  8. The Cadaver

    The Cadaver It's very quiet here.

    Oct 24, 2000
    La Cañada, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't want to get into the silly "if our best athletes played soccer..." discussion. But, I do want to point out that being one of several "major" sports creates a whole world of issues that other countries do not face. Relevant to this discussion, it is just as likely (or more likely) that an American parent will be tossing a baseball with a child, maybe throwing a football with a child, or teaching a child how to shoot at a hoop as they are to be teaching basic soccer skills. Not only do we have the lack of human capital that @MPNumber9 described, that which we do have is dispersed in a variety of directions and not focused on a single culturally significant sport.
     
  9. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Can't deny the listing of the impediments. Hell my own stepson who was a D-I star (Chico) and then played USL and 2nd, 3rd division soccer in Mexico and Holland doesn't kick a ball around with his two little sons. :(

    But I think it's important that US Soccer realize that we get our heads out of the sand and realize that this is an issue that drives the problems later. Otherwise there will continue to be disappointments when the new coaching regimes, academies etc still aren't turning out stars like we had hoped.

    I think Byrnes mantra of "Soccer starts at home" is one that US Soccer should be preaching. Pamphlets at MLS games explaining that even if the dad or mom wasn't much of a player - there is still a lot they can do. If they want their child to be good at the sport they need to be getting a few fusbals around the house and playing keep away with their kids as soon as they can walk. Explain they want little Johnnie or Sally to know how to work the ball with the sole of their feet, shield the ball from their parent, etc. before they show up for that first U-6 rec team.
     
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  10. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Yes, this is a great description of the natural process of soccer development around the world. And it will inevitable happen here, over decades. But I still think it can be sped up a bit if US Soccer can get the awareness out there to some soccer centric parents/siblings that they need to get their children developing ball control skills through play from age 2 on. Parent/sibling doesn't need to be great, just willing to play hours of keep away around the living room or back yard.
     
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  11. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Doesn't have to be a large proportion since we have such a large pool of kids. We are currently losing to countries where the entire population is 1.4 million.
     
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  12. Beakmon FC

    Beakmon FC Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Jan 10, 2002
    The OC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most NFL and NBA players are far too big to be anything but goalkeepers. But DBs, man....those dudes are much smaller and crazy good athletes.
     
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  13. TrickHog

    TrickHog Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 14, 2002
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Man, you guys sure are smart about soccer...
     
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  14. 73Bruin

    73Bruin Member+

    Jul 12, 2008
    Torrance, California
    I think that most NBA guards and small forwards would be awesome soccer field players. How many champions league quality cbs could handle the combination of quickness, speed, power and leaping ability that Labron James would bring as a target forward. IMO zero.

    I also think NFL wide receivers and most running backs have the quickness and speed to make it as soccer players.
     
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  15. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The "best athletes" point gets downplayed a lot, but it's an important factor for two reasons:

    1) In a given population (or labor market) there is a finite number of "exceptional" workers -- for the purposes of sports, this means people with the inherent athletic gifts, but also the aptitude and drive to achieve at high level in any field. Well, soccer, as a profession, must compete with baseball, football, basketball and hockey (not to mention, many other non-athletic professions) to attract these individuals. It loses more often than not because soccer cannot offer competitive wages or the level of prestige (fame, glory flashy cars, beautiful women) those other fields do.

    And 2) which is endogenous to the first point, soccer is much less relevant than other sports / professions. The chances that a young American will be exposed to and develop a passion for soccer is still low compared to other sports where, again, there is a relatively large stock of human capital knowledge.

    As soccer grows in relevance / popularity, so will demand for professionals in this field -- players, but also coaches, refs, youth coaches, journalists, groundskeepers, so on. More demand translates to higher wages. Higher wages buys better professionals across all areas of the field. (I don't think anyone thinks the guys getting paid to do marketing for the Galaxy are paid as well as the guys doing marketing for the Dodgers, for example.)

    Okay, no more economics, I promise!
     
  16. shurikt

    shurikt Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    Las Vegas, NV
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This. Plus two bonus points for the correct use of the word "endogenous."
     
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  17. rtdavide

    rtdavide Member+

    Apr 20, 2005
    Whittier, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the human capital portion will take time. the first generation of those that grew up playing soccer are having kids and getting them into the sport too. By contrast- when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, I didn't know ANYbody who played. Soccer wasn't even on my radar. When I was coaching my son, the majority of the parents knew nothing about the sport, the tactics, the intricacies... it was just them yelling: kick the ball Johnny! Run!
    I think even this generation now putting their kids in soccer... they'll know more, having played the sport themselves, but it's still a small percentage that know the game. Even though they may have played the sport in an organized way, the coaching, advice, and seriousness with which the sport was treated was well below what other countries have. But with successive generations, it will come up.
    I have family in Italy and I remember one of my nephews (age 6) dribbling pretty well with a tennis ball. I remarked that he was pretty good, and they were like: yeah, he's ok. That 6 year old kid was already better technically than anybody on any team I ever coached, so it illustrated the difference the cultural influence has on the kids as they grow up.
     
  18. OC Galaxy Fans

    Jul 30, 2009
    Placentia
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Malcom Gladwell talks about 10,000 hours. The people who are the best at whatever they do have at least 10,000 hours invested.

    I blame the current state of US Soccer on AYSO's decision that all kids get a trophy at the end of the season.
     
  19. wcmanes

    wcmanes Member

    May 28, 1999
    Riverside, Ca, USA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    AYSO's mission is to teach social skills, not soccer skills
     
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  20. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    10,000 hours of kick ball isn't going to help. And again AYSO age is probably too late to develop a great player. Ages 2-6 are important for fundamental ball manipulation skills.

    As I mentioned this Tom Byer got a bunch of those small hard fusbals, left them around the house, discouraged his toddlers from kicking the ball and instead got them focused on just manipulating the ball. He then used an iphone to document on youtube their ball manipulation skills at each age - age 2, 3, 4, 5... By the time his sons reached AYSO equivalent they (like the kids of many US immigrants) were playing a different game then their peers. Byer did the youtube documentation to attempt to build up "standards" of what our soccer youth should be capable of doing with the ball at each of these early ages. He says he was surprised at how high the level the skills were at these young ages.
     
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  21. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If only LJ could use his hands in soccer, eh? My money would be on their being more successful with Rugby than Soccer....;)
     
  22. wcmanes

    wcmanes Member

    May 28, 1999
    Riverside, Ca, USA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Curious what Steve Nash and Kobe would have to say about it. Both are great athletes, soccer enthusiasts, and exposed to the sport as a kid. Wonder if they think they could have reached the same heights in soccer as they did in hoops.
     
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  23. 73Bruin

    73Bruin Member+

    Jul 12, 2008
    Torrance, California
    Did I miss the use of the sarcastic font? AYSO stops handing out participation awards for kids playing U9.
     
  24. 73Bruin

    73Bruin Member+

    Jul 12, 2008
    Torrance, California
    Total BS, but why let facts interfere with an agenda.
     
  25. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #25 MPNumber9, Nov 4, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
    Markovitz covers the "problem" with AYSO in his book Offside; recommended reading for anyone invested in the growth of soccer in the US.

    Basically, he puts forth that the youth participation rates (based largely on #s of youth in AYSO, which is huge) are misleading because those kids are engaging with soccer as a recreational activity, not as culture. Most AYSO youth and their parents are engaging with soccer merely a something to do, but are not engaging with it as culture they way they would with others sports (watching pro games, live or on TV, talking about legendary players etc.). It's the exposure to the culture, he argues, that really motivates kids to want to get good enough to be pros.

    He also talks about the importance of access to live matches.
     
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