But what other sports does football compete against in England? What did they compete against 20 years ago? Cricket? Rounders? No, really, what else do you guys play over there? Edit: Oh, yeah, my point. Soccer has to compete against the NFL, MLB, NBA, and the NHL as far as the big boys go. I also happened to catch more MLL games on TV this summer than I did MLS matches. I think England's football resurgence has to do a lot with a lack of competition.
The main competition would be rugby - union in the south and league in the north. Crowds for both top divisions are typically in the 5000-15000 range. Crowds at cricket are pathetic, often well under 1000, - only the international matches keep it alive. The resurgence in England had a lot to do with it bouncing back from something of a nadir in the mid 80s, with the Heysel riot in 1985 and the Bradford City fire, in which 56 burned to death, happening in the same month. As terrible as those events were, they also made football a talking point again. Ditto the Hillsborough disaster, which humanised football supporters, who up to that point were portrayed as nothing more than drunken skinhead scum itching for a fight. When the South Yorkshire police lied and said the disaster was caused by drunken Liverpool fans smashing down the gate and surging on to the packed terraces, they did so thinking the public would believe them. When one newspaper printed it's front page exclusive saying that Liverpool fans picked the pockets of the dead and pissed on their bodies, it did so because it believed football fans were capable of behaving like that. The CCTV footage, which proved the police and The Sun newspaper totally wrong in their claims, also helped as it made it much easier to convict hooligans. Ground became safer, and more pleasant places to go because of the lessened threat of violence. The country also went mental during England's run to the semi-finals in 1990 and people who'd previous slated it sudddenly declared a love for the game. Experiences in most other european countries, that didn't have any of that but have grown anyway, shows that football here might have grown anyway too, but it would probably have been a slower growth and the premiership (itself created at precisley the correct time with SKY TV forming the previous year) would probably instead be vying with Germany for the right to be europe's 3rd biggest league, rather than being one of the big 3. None of which has any bearing at all on the potential of MLS. It does have the potential to be huge, but getting anywhere near that potential will be very difficult, and won't happen overnight. As a footnote, when the fortunes of English league football were plunging, some were even predicting that interest in the NFL (which had been on TV for 2 or 3 years then) would soon pass interest in the football league.
It's still early days to see how well MLS can do. Each of the other major sports was around for decades before hitting it big. Look at the relatively recent transformation of NASCAR as the latest example. I doubt it will ever be massive in the European sense, but who knows? As the world gets smaller the idea of competing in a real sense with other countries might look more appealing. If so, basketball outside the US and soccer within stand to benefit more than the NFL and baseball.
Twenty years ago, professional soccer in the US was a joke, filled with aging Euro stars (many 'B-level' stars at best) just as the article suggests. The state now is much more respectable - a higher-level of play - based more on fitness and speed than strategy (again the article is correct). What will it be twenty years from now? We MLS fans are optimistic, but most will agree that the apex - the highest we could hope for our clubs is to be able to compete in tournaments and exhibitions with the world's best. (Why should any Euro football fan be pissed off or threatened by that?) This idea that US money will ruin the game is a joke. In fact, the biggest threat to MLS right now is the drain of our talented youngsters going overseas to chase a dream and play against the best in Europe - for much better money, btw. It won't happen overnight - and it may take another twenty years - but familiarity with the game will reach critical mass in the US. We are close to reaching a sustaining level of passionate fanatics right now. The money will not reach Euro levels in my lifetime. But every town in America now has parks filled with soccer fields, and those fields are filled with children and adult teams - you can't find one empty around here. The difference is that ten years ago the coaches were parents who didn't know anything about the game. Now the coaches are often parents that learned as children, played in high school, some in college. I've seen teams of 8 year olds playing reasonably organized ball - using the wings and crossing. We'll be there. Give us another decade. But it won't be money that gets us there.
Do you define a soccer country by its professional league or by its national team. I guess it depends on weather you talk to a brazilian or an englishman. Personally, I would take the 5 world cups but i certainly wouldn't mind the EPL. To the english posters with a bit more perspective, when do you guys see us winning the world cup are spoiling the sport for good? Not being sarcastic I lived in brighton for years as well.
Agreed Basketball was 30 years in before it started to take-off. NFL didn't have a pretty start either. Look at hockey (when they actually play) they still don't get good ratings most of the time
Well, hockey is a little different. The game translated very poorly onto TV, and the NHL has overexpanded and is losing money rapidly. There are plenty of devout hockey fans in this country--enough to fill home arenas whenever their NHL teams are around. The fan base is there--it's the TV deals and wider fan base (the kind of people that for baseball don't watch any of the regular season but tune in for the world series) that have eluded the league. The MLS is still in its "establish a solid fan base and fill the stadiums" stage.
I think the potential of the MLS is huge, considering that USA has a population of around 300 million and 9 trillion economy. Compare that to a crap country like Holland who have had amazing players since 1970s despite being such a small country the MLS has potential. Really Americans complaining that MLS has other sports to compete with are just looking for excuses, America is a union of states, and them states are like little countries compared to Europe, you don't realize just how big your country is, it's massive. That's why I think US can compete at the World Cup if it put's it mind to it, without the need for soccer to become number one in America, but I don't think in anyway that MLS will be bigger than Spanish La Liga, English Premiership, or Serie A. I just cannot see it happening. Look at Germany, they have the biggest economy in Europe, the biggest population in Europe, but their league isn't even in the top 3 and this is a football country. Yes they have had a great national team but at club level they are not the best at all. I think clubs need a history behind it to be succesful and that's why I can see USA being great at the national game but not at the club game, and I don't care how rich USA are. I think USA missed it's opportunity in 1970s since there wasn't that much money in it, but now it's too late European football is global, you won't get European fans supporting MLS, you won't get Africans and South American supporting MLS, and it might be too late then for even the Asian market. Football will always be number 1 in Europe there are so many many football clubs in Europe that just cannot be copied in America and I can see it going towards a European Super League within the next 20 years, especially with the European Union and single currency and as countries intergrate, the Europe in 20 years time will be a different and more solid Europe. This is why USA will not dominate football, but I know that most American fans would just love to see their league develop for now and it obviously will.
I agree with most of this post. It will certainly take tons of time but we certainly do have the population and resources to have a great national team. It was only 14 years ago that we were qualifying for our first world cup in what, close to 50 years? The fact that we are even having this conversation is a huge sign of progress. The MLS is growing slowly just like it needs to. That was the problem with the NASL it tried to grow too fast and just manged itself poorly. The NASL wasn't producing players that would help the nats go on to qualify for world cups. How many nations have qualified for more consecutive world cups than the US? I believe that would be 1...Brazil. We are headed in the right direction, stay tuned. Other countries are starting to really respect what we can do and have done.
Since 1986, Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Germany, Italy, South Korea, and Spain have qualified consecutively. With Cameroon consecutively since 1990 along with United States, also if you take into account that US hosted 1994 World Cup so automatically qualified for one. Without trying to sound like a bigot it's not really that much of an acheivment to qualify from the CONCACAF region but I suppose the US can only beat what's put infront of them.
I think thats a great acomplishment to be in the company of only 8 other countries. Qualifying by itself isn't easy regardless of what region but to do it 4 cups in a row (going on 5) is something to be proud of. I know Brazil has never missed a world cup but didn't have to go through qualifying for many since they were returning champions. It looks like there are other hosts/defending champions in that list as well.
Oh, come now. Every region has its weaknesses. We just happen to be surrounded by island nations whose conditions I won't mock for fear of sounding cold and unfeeling. Put us in an Asia group and we could take out Mongolia, no problem.
Just keep in mind that MLS is just "SIX YEARS OLD" and Freddy Adu is not saving anybody he is just a kid with an beach attitude, now lets go to reallity: Sporting Cristal just came to MLS to get an ass whoop and few or your so call super teams are in line to play against MLS all stars game so be patient we shall find out very soon if the euro league are for real or just hipe....The only difference between the euroleagues and MLS is that they fire coaches left and right, here unfortunately we just rotate the coach carrousel ......
Ok first off players from everywhere don't give a damn about history, they care about cash, as soon as MLS can start spending millions of dollars on players they will come and it will make the leauge better. MLS won't need champions leauge, because we don't need 20 countires to find enough major cities to have a full league of "superteams". We have enough big cities to fit them all in our domestic league. Therefore expect in 10-20 years the "champions league" to be run by MLS!
Who the hell cares??? You either like MLS, you hate it or you find it a bit interesting at times. Why should I give a flying f*** about whether or not it'n not as good as European football? Or any other football? I like it beacuse it is OURS. We didn't have a division one league in this county for what--10 years after the NASL folded? Something is better than nothing. I couldn't care what any foreigners think about our league. Hell, I don't really care too much about what clowns who live here think. We have a lot of entertainment/sports choices in this country. I could care less if MLS is a f*ing afterthought. So what? I don't care about what people in Europe or South America or anyplace else think about the NFL, NCAA basketball. A lot of people in South America don't care about the NHL. Some people in Europe do. Great. It's nice that the NBA if followed in a lot of countries. It didn't guarantee us an olympic gold medal. I don't get to see any of the ca$h, so what do I care what the NBA or MLB generate abroad. I don't. I just want the league to survive. Plain and simple. Our football and league aren't as good as tons of others. Big deal? What's your point? I LOVE MLS BECAUSE IT BELONGS TO US. It is a waste of time to compare our league to others. Why do American soccer fans waste so much time trying to respond to domestic and foreign critics? Let's just play, try to continue to develop and go forward. Let the haters (be they Yanks or foreigners) hate... Who cares???
Did you read the same article I read? I thought that was a postive article for US fans and if I were an American I'd be pretty happy with it. Who the hell cares response it a bit of a dumb response. Any nation with a developing league no matter what sport it is would like to hear comments from abroad to see what status their league is in the world. If you don't care fair enough but that indicates that your not a real fan of the MLS to begin with or deep down you would care.
No. I don't care. Just like I don't care what anyone thinks about our other leagues. Why should I care what people think about our baseball league? If you are into something, you are into it because you are interested, it matters to you. If people in Japan think that Major League Baseball is subpar, it's not going to affect whether or not I continue to support my very disappointing MLB team (can the Orioles please get some f*ing pitching and a new owner? Oops, I digress). What difference does it make? Pretty much zippy. I don't even care what Yankees or Red Sox fans can about our mediocre (at best) team. We KNOW that they are better. That doesn't change the situation and the lack of approval or outside validation won't change nor affect how I feel about my team because it's MY team. Does it really matter what people in the Netherlands think about the US Men's Field Hockey team? You guys have a great team. Ours can't qualify for the frigging olympics. Our "status" with nations that are better than us in men's field hockey won't make a difference. We ALREADY KNOW that we're not very good. Technical advisors is a different story. But let's not kid ourselves and think that knowing the "status" of our program (according to others, whether correct or incorrect) is going to make any sort of difference when the key factors in development are usually (note: "usually") ca$h, national commitment and time. I'm still gonna support our field hockey team, regardless. If YOU chose to be defined by others, that is your choice. In general, the moment that you start worrying too much about what people think it is very easy to get sidetracked and distracted. I'm not saying that you can't learn from other people's experiences. I'm just saying that the MLS is kinda like punk rock or hip hop. Some people dig it some don't. Some people only care when they see a highlight. A lot of people think that both are rubbish. I love them both, so someone else's opinion of their value doesn't really factor into my love of them. You can find it "a bit dumb" if you want. You can think that I am not a "real fan of MLS". That's your perogative; I am not defined by what you or anything else thinks. I pay my cash to go see DCU, have paid my dues for the supporter's club and have traveled to support the club. Hey, I'm from a town (Baltimore) that is always in the shadow of our Mid Atlantic neighbors (Washington, Philadelphia, New York). If we constantly worried about how we are assessed by others we would never shed our inferiority complex and celebrate what we have that is good. Soooo. Call it "a bit dumb" if you want. If I worried about what people thought I would have never supported the WUSA, the prehype US Women's National Team (before WWC '99) or care about the A-League. Hell, I would have never supported our Men's team because they used to suck. To each their own, my man. I'm too lazy to develop a manifesto but if I weren't so lazy, the basic principles of said manifesto would basically be: 1) Be Nice. 2) Be yourself (emulate the good that you admire but don't try to "be" someone/something you're not. Realize that life's variables are often just that--variables--all situations are not the same, that includes resources). 3) Appreciate whatever you have that has any value and try to develop it. 4) Go back to step 1. Hey, like I said. I'm just a bit of a dumb Yank from a working class town... I'm not that bright. At least that's what a lot of the people in the world would say because of where I come from, what I look like or how I speak... It may be a bit dumb but my simpleton's manifesto is working pretty well for me so I'm gonna stick with it. I'm not a very "sophisticated" guy. I'm OK with that. Thanks for the feedback, though.
As a fan of the USMNT and MLS I will say this. I can agree that our league might not ever be as big as the european leagues. But the talent that we are started to develop can't be ignored. Just like the Brazilians and Argentines, who can found all over europe. Over time the Europeans will be all over our league trying to convience our players to go across the pond. Americans will be around.
We're finally getting some recognition. We are going to continue to shock the world; can't wait for Germany '06!
You are absolutely right yankiboy you should be proud of MLS because it is yours and you shouldn`t care what other people think. But just let me try to put into perspective our "friend" lucus88 comments. Look where he is from, look who he supports and look what he writes. He has all the classsic signs of a disease known "Premiership glory boys disease". These type of fans think everything below the top six of the Premiership and outside top clubs in Europe is crap. They ridicule because they don`t understand, they think how can anyone watch any other teams other than the top few. He will undoubtly ridicule me for supporting Lincoln City (league 2). Ask yourself this question yankiboy would our "friend" here still be supporting Liverpool if they were struggling at the wrong end of league 2? maybe, maybe not! but I can guarantee you one thing Liverpool wouldn`t be getting 45,000 every week if they were in League 2 it would just be the genuine hardcore Liverpool fans that would be left. Idiots like this just knocking people for supporting less successful clubs or leagues really don`t understand what it is to be a true football supporter.
This applies to American fans who refuse to support, or even respect, MLS, because it's not up to the "quality" they demand. They're soccer consumers, not fans.
Those who question whether MLS salaries will ever eclipse salaries of European clubs also have another factor to consider - taxes. The higher tax rates in many European nations (I know some nations don't apply their income tax to guest workers like soccer players) can make for a lower marginal salary than players might get in the US. Regarding TV money, the NFL (32 teams IIRC) gets over a billion dollars in TV revenues per season. They recently signed a deal for $8billion over 6 years, and that does not count the lucrative (most popular show on TV) Monday night game or the odd games on Thursdays and Saturdays, which could add at least another $1billion each over the 6 year period. Divide 10 billion by 6 by 32 teams and you get $52,000,000 per season. Just in TV money alone. Granted not all of that goes to the team, but its a lot of money. Even if MLS qualifies for a deal that is 1/10 of the NFL deal (roughly the level that NHL and MLB now enjoy), they will be able to close the gap quite a bit relative to the European league. That would provide each team in a 16 team league with over $10,000,000 per season. With the interest in soccer exploding at the youth level and our changing demographics, MLS could begin rising in the sports hierarchy in the US very quickly. Just wait and see how quickly European players will accept slightly smaller salaries to play in LA or NY or Chicago for the short MLS season and enjoy far more purchasing power in the USA.
You get that everywhere, not just over there. People find excuses. My club has a poor history. It doesn't have the strong tradition of families supporting the club for generations. The town also has a large bulk of its population who have moved here from other parts of the country, and consequently didn't grow up supporting the team. In that sense there are similarities in trying to win fans. For years these neutrals said they go along if Reading got into the top two divisions. Reading got promoted.... they then said they go along if Reading were a top half of the table team. Reading got into the top half.... they then said they go along if Reading challenged for a play-off spot Reading got into the top six.... they then said they'd go along if Reading mounted a real automatic promotion push Reading got into the top 3... they than said they'd go along if Reading were in the premiership and they probably would. Some people just want the big event. We have no trouble selling out when Leeds came to town, but it was down to the usual 15000-16000 for the next game. People who don't go because they don't think MLS is big or glamorous enough for them are almost a lost cause. If it really takes off they'll suddenly get an interest, but you'll have to get there without them, just as we stumbled along with 12,500 fans in Div 2 before finding 40,000 'loyal' fans to take to the play-off final in Cardiff.
But it has to be that way doesn't it? The counter-example is the Chicago Cubs where the general theory has always been that the Cubs tended to be bad because they didn't have to be good, 35,000 people showed up regardless. There is an effeiciency involved in "bandwagoners" in that it increases the financial rewards of good management. One of the great benefits of the playoffs to these teams is the pay day that comes with them even if you lose. It's the consolation prize for losing the promotion bid.