That was dumb of Haan. I've seen NBA coaches intentionally goat opposing coach/players to "boast" and make it a rallying point to motivate their own team.
Let's also NOT overestimate Kuwait or underestimate Malaysia. 3 or 4 goals win by China may be enough. Kwait did not look impressive recently and Malays can always surprise a team like Kuwait.
I think the main problem is that in the recent fixtures China was never able to dominate HK, and Kuwait has 2 goal advantage in goal-difference. Personally I think it's stupid to separate HK from China in the WC qualifiers - it's not like the relationship between HK and China is anything similar to that between Scotland, Wales and England. Whatever the outcome maybe I don't think it'll do any good for Chinese football (unless China advances by beating HK by say 1-2 goals and Kuwait fails to beat Malaysia).
Elliad, China is in a tough situation as you said unless Malaysia coudl draw or beat Kuwait. I hope the Chinese wise up and recognize the fact that everybody does it, be it in Europe or the Arab world, and do something more than just playing fair and square. But I'm afraid they're just too fair and square to do it. Looking at all signs at this point, this match is for real and if Haan follows through with his all-attack strategy that he's been screaming about for the last few days, I wouldn't be surprised if Hong Kong gets to score a goal or two. Hong Kong doesn't have much of a team but it does have a couple of goal scorers who are actually quite impressive.
I dunno dreamer, but it sounds as if you are only trying to justify HK throwing the match for China by saying 'everybody does it'. And not trying to hurt your feelings or anything, but I don't agree with your "they're just too fair and square to do it" statement about China - I read that C-League has been plagued by problems of match-fixing&bribing within the league, resulting in the diminished popularity of the league in the country. If China don't do it then it won't be because that they are too fair and square, but they are simply worried about the backlash that'll surely be generated by Kuwait and other countries (but then this applies to not just China but any other country) To be frank I'm a little disappointed by your views on this, dreamer. During the last WC a supposedly well-known Chinese journalist with the surname of Huang criticised Korea for beating Portugal, resulting in USA advancing to the next round and Portugal being knocked out. He wrote that since Korea could have advanced by just a draw, and adding to the fact that Korea had quite high anti-US sentiment at the time, Korea shouldn't have tried so hard to beat Portugal out who were a very popular team in the tournament. I don't know how other ppl think, but to me this is just what football as a sport shouldn't be about. Anyways, best luck to the Chinese team - they'd sure need it. And I for one think that China has a better chance of getting to WC than Kuwait in final qual. rounds, so it would be a loss if China was to be knocked out this early.
I definitely think that all the attention on this game will help HK keep focus, and perhaps screw up the rhythm for China. HK's only aim will be to defend, and if they are not spending too much energy on attacking, it is easier to keep up the focus. China, on the other hand, HAVE to come forward, and there will be opportunity for HK to counter. If China doesn't score a goal within the first 20 minutes, frustration will build, and their focus may dwindle. This will be the coach's job to keep the players focused. I'll keep an eye out for the players you mentioned. Maybe this is the time for younger players to put a little spark in the squad!
I felt that the arrogance china displayed was disappointing. I know they have painted themselves into a corner, but like Kwok said, it's their own fault, and they don't need to strut about against HK. Btw, I thought the Chinese LOVED Haan.... Again, like Sun Jihai, it'll be interesting to see if Haan uses Li and in what situation/position.
"Everybody does it" is a fact Elliad. Good or not for the sport? Not a good thing in principle. Good on a practical, case by case basis, same idea as the fact that the host nations usually get some favoritism. Don't forget sportsmanship is an idea. But sport is a business. I don't know the journalist you referred to but China is getting more open by the day and there're a lot of differing opinions so I wouldn't take things said by any one journalist to heart. When I said fair and square I meant the CFA. It's run by a bunch or squeaky clean squareheads who've been put on a very small budget, nothing like what that Hyundai dude had at his disposal. Bottom line, it will be a real match. China will need a lot of luck to advance.
Even during the height of his fame in the Asian Cup, I detected a sense of uneasiness among the fans and in the Chinese media towards him. The fact that he completely misused Sun Jihai was part of the reason I suppose. Yeah you hit it on the head. The kind of arrogance shown by the Chinese side at this juncture indicates a complete lack of awareness of what's needed done here. If nothing else it has motivated a Hong Kong team that might've gone easy, or at least easier, on China, just like the way Malaysia is going easy on Kuwait. News just in, Malaysia will not play most of their starters. In fact, they may only field a second team. China is officailly out I suppose. The CFA could've managed to ease Hong Kong into doing something like this if it weren't run by a bunch of squares. Too bad.
It has to be at least a 4-0 victory and we have to hope Kuwait does not win by more than 2 goals. If Kuwait wins by more than 2 goals, we have to win by more than 5 goals etc. This might be shocking to you when I say this, I don't know if I am the only Chinese football fan that feels this way. I hope they lose to Hong Kong and get humiliated. Let me explain why I feel this way, I think it's about time that the CFA reflects upon themselves on why the Chinese National Team does not do well. They have to look at the Chinese ways of training and playing. They need to feel pain and humiliation in order to know that they need self improvement. We were humiliated at World Cup 2002, but the CFA would say to themselves, at least we made it to the world cup and therefore it was an improvement. The reality was, we were in a very easy division for qualification and we got lucky because Japan and Korea was not in qualifications. This time China was not so lucky and did not performe well in the round of qualification. They failed to score more than 1 goal against Hong Kong and Malaysia in previous games which led to their disaster. I don't want China to sneak into the next round. Think about thise Chinese fans, if we sneak to the next round and don't make it to the World Cup, the CFA won't feel as humiliated and will feel natural. After making it to the World Cup last time and not even qualifying for the final round, the CFA as well as the players will feel disasterous. They might push for improvement of the horrible league, the CSL. They will push to learn better ways of training and management. I look at thins in a long term point of view. I strongly believe China can be competitive in the world against teams like Korea, Japan and eventually good teams in Europe, but definately not now. For the glory of the nation, the CFA must hate themselves before they can love themselves and improve. I hope China loses badly and start to realize that the way they are right now is hopeless.
Malaysia is in a completely different boat here, so it's not realistic to compare. Malaysia could care less about who goes through, China or Kuwait. At this point I'd guess their main aim is to give as many players a chance to experience a WCQ, international standards, and a tough away match. China and HK have a history with each other, and that clouds matters...both from the outside looking in, and within the teams. Since they have this relationship, I think it would be impossible for HK to play a second-string team, no matter what the situation was. And why should the players give up the chance to play their best in a high-visibility match?
I don't think a "bunch of squares" really was the issue. China has to deal with their problems in international relationships and image as sportsmen. The Asia Cup was a great example -- regardless of historical clouds looming, the behavior of the crowds, workers at the stadium/facilities, and finally Haan himself after the final, was unforgivable and embarassing as Hosts. You'd think those events would have resulted in a re-evaluation of behavior and attitude; however, after the loss to Kuwait, the Oriental Sports Daily made a suggestion that the China football chairman should get the government to put political pressure on HK. Sports may be a business, but it's built on fans faith in a system founded on certain ideals of sportsmanship. You lose that faith, and the true football fans won't stick around for too long. China has the Olympics coming up. They also want to be the next Asian nation to host the World Cup. China needs to show they are mature enough to handle these events, whether they end up with a hundred trophies or none. I don't think "being a square" is what we're looking at here -- I hope it's more like "having standards". Besides, you're trying to say here that poor preparation or performance should be covered up with "cheating". Sure, this could work for one game, in some corner of asia -- but it won't get them any further than that, and certainly not in Germany.
Same could be said about the Malaysia team. But the fact of the matter is it's a 180 degree turn from only two weeks ago when Malaysia said it would do its best in the last game against Kuwait. Now it's saying a second team. Wonder what has transpired behind the scene? Just pointing out China has a lot to learn when it comes to powerplays outside of the soccer field. And this learning could not be done with the squareheads. We need business people, someone like that Hyundai guy, who could back up his aspirations with real $, so that things not only get done, they get done skillfully enough there won't be any worrry about "fan faith" being eroded.
that's what I mean: Malaysia owes nothing to anybody, they can do whatever they want, and they're not doing it for anybody but themselves...letting the players who want to, are able to, deserve to, play play. We can't say "we have to cheat", and then turn around and feel indignant b/c they are working under different assumptions than we are. Sure, you're absolutely right, the suits need to up their sophistication on many levels. But like ChineseFootballFan said, shouldn't the concern be first on developing the technique/strengths of the football players? The art of armtwisting and negotiations can only come after you have a certain credibility. Powerplays should only be icing on the cake. I understand your frustration, I do. I just don't know if I'm comfortable with how you feel they should go about "fixing" the problems.... but hey, that's your deal, then that's your deal. And this is a great arena to vent frustrations!
Dreamer is partially right. The Chinese officials are masters when it comes to internal curruption. Chinese officials are the most corrupt officials in the world, do you know how much money is invovled in their corruption activities? Having said that, when it comes to dealing with outside countries, they stink. They won't bribe any foriegners or "fix" any problems. Maybe Dreamer should become the head of CFA, he might have the balls to do something about it.
Since you understand my frustrations so well, maybe I should give you the number of my therapist so you could clue her in because she doesn't seem to. I don't disagree with you or CFF (sorry ChineseFootballfan but your name is too long I have to give you your own agency ). In fact, better PR off the field coud go hand in hand with better development at the grassroot level. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, because they both could be the products of better financial operation together with better talent development and management. Take a lesson from Japan and not the Arabs, simple as that. China needs to send more people out to study the world, preferably to Japan or the US, or even Singapore.
CFF, your post has been edited at your request. Are you trying to talk me into a shiity job here? But seriously this is a job for someone who has too much money and time and is seeking fame, kinda like that Hyundai dude, and uh, kinda like me, hmmmm.
For Iran's sake I hope Kuwait wins over China. Iran can take Kuwait both home and away. China has a shot at beating Iran in China. Go Kuwait!
It's nice to hear that Iran fears China, even if it's just a little bit. Considering the ethnic tensions in Malaysia, perhaps the ethnic Malays in the FA want to stick it to China.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bribe foreigners"... you mean refs? other NTs? you mean spend money to play with good teams? True, though, Chinese officials definitely don't have the "slickness" you sometimes need for these kinds of sports events... you need creativity, and ability to "make nice" to get what you want, put the pressure on, package a proposal nice and pretty. You can only develop these things by embracing the outside world more, and "officials" and "bureaucrats" in China don't seem to be groomed that way. No, they should not be mutually exclusive, you're right. But talent development and better financial management are not the same as "knowing how to cheat"... and certainly the countries you mentioned are not known for their "cheating" tactics... They are very upfront and ambitious in their dealings, though things are not perfect for them either! ...and ok, I'll bite. Who is this Hyundai guy?
Hyundai guy. http://www.soccerphile.com/soccerphile/archives/wc2002/fo/mw/cmj.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2264121.stm Bribing and PR fees sometimes are not much different. All depending on the way you do it. People in the US and Japan know more about getting it done the right way better than anyone else in the world. Possibly because they have more money than anyone else to back up their plans. And let me make clear what I want is better PR, not bribing or cheating.
dreamer, I still don't buy your "everybody's doing it" statement - you could prove it to me by giving me some known cases, involving countries say France, England, Germany, Nigeria, Cameroon, Korea, Japan, Iran, USA, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina et c, for example. But we could just let it go by saying we agree to disgree, I guess. Anyways, about Hyundai's Chung Mong-Joon, he's often criticised in Korea for using football to further his political ambitions rather than to improve the sport in Korea. And his financial contribution to KFA isn't so significant either - otherwise KFA's annual budget won't be only a fifth of JFA's budget. But I agree that he could and should be doing so much more - considering the kind of financial backing he has