Youngsters in MLS (1997 or later)

With all this I still believe it's possible to have incentives to get on the field talented youth that stay in MLS earlier rather than later. If you lucked up to sign Pomykal up,
and, I believe, he has a short contract, play him, his sale will bring you money.

 

I just wrote about this in another thread. I viewed Arriola's contract as a positive... until they decide to get serious about developing players, I want all of our top players moving abroad. MLS clearly incentivizing to do so, will only help.

It wasnt long ago, that MLS "punished" returning players for initially passing them by (twellman and Nguyen are the first two that come to mind), but now have swung way too far the other way. If Acosta wasn't looking for a move I'm sure he called his agent when that news came out. Nagbe must be pretty happy making half of what Arriola makes.

 

People need to get over age. If you are good enough, you are old enough. Pomykal is 4 months and 4 days shy of his 18th birthday. Coincidently, Pulisic was the exact sam age in the last game he played in May of 2016.

PP has played in 5 games for 282 mins in MLS, USOC and CCL
CP had played in 12 games for 443 mins in Bundesliga and Europa League

Correct me if im wrong, but Pomykal did have an injury that has slowed progress. That being said, I think he and Ferreira have shown that they belong and could have seen more minutes. If Sargent was on my team, I'd want to see him on the bench and getting minutes when possible. I haven't seen Llanez play, but have heard good things. I don't know why it would be ludicrous to get him some first team minutes, if he's good enough.

 

The U22 min comparison which I hadn't done yet for the last Euro season.

Parameters are players age 22 or under who made 1st team appearances for 2016-17:

Ligue 1:

Number of U22's to appear: 162 players
3000+ mins: 4 players
2000+ mins: 22 players
1000+ mins: 60 players
500+ mins: 79 players

Ered:

Number of U22's to appear: 180 players
3000+ mins: 1 player
2000+ mins: 29 players
1000+ mins: 63 players
500+ mins: 94 players

Portugal Primeira:

Number of U22's to appear: 104 players
3000+ mins: 0 players
2000+ mins: 10 players
1000+ mins: 34 players
500+ mins: 53 players

Bundesliga:

Number of U22's to appear: 110
3000+ mins: 0 players
2000+ mins: 18 players
1000+ mins: 36 players
500+ mins: 50 players

MLS: (with season about 2/3 of way thru)

Number of U22's to appear: 103
2000+ mins: 3 players- maybe 3-4 others will hit that mark
1000+ mins: 22 players- about 10 others should hit that mark
500+ mins: 42 players

So there's some improvement. Still far behind the Ered and Ligue 1. Fair bit behind the Bund too despite the massive difference in quality of leagues. Most comparable to Portugal. These are top 8-10 leagues though, two of them top 5. Given the difference in level of competition and that there's no pro/rel penalty here, we'd ideally like to see youth in MLS trend far more towards the Ered and Ligue 1. That is many more players in the 2000+ bracket and likely about 2X as many in the 1000+ bracket.

BTW, MLS has more teams than these other leagues so that could be adjusted. Bund/Ered/Port has 4 fewer clubs each. So if 18X4, 72 more roster spots were on hand, their numbers would be higher.

 

Yup Liga mx teams have more pressure to win but they are playing way more young Mexicans than MLS with Americans. It seems MLS coaches think 21 22 is the age were they should start giving big minutes

 

This is the big point though.

I think everyone would understand (maybe not agree with the strategy but understand) if MLS had an unlimited salary cap, and MLS became the Premier League where teams buy established mid-late 20's stars, and didn't have the patience or time to use young players, but as you mentioned, thats not the situation. No pro-rel, and the league is a much lower quality than Eredivisie, Ligue One, etc. Unless these players are just so bad and we actually aren't improving, why shouldn't they be playing more often at younger ages?

Does anyone doubt that if Carleton, Pomykal, Ferreira, Adams were developing in Croatia or Switzerland that they'd be playing regular minutes? They would be, yet MLS now brags about bringing in players who are mid 20's, they don't even care the quality of the players or if they actually make the league significantly better, its now all about younger foreigners, which probably more than anything takes away chances from young Americans.

And thats the age teams stop taking fliers on young Americans, unless they are proven NT players.

 

The big point.

Leagues with far higher levels of competition, more money to spend/buy on proven vets, more pressure with pro/rel and much more money on the line with UCL/Europa berths, are playing youth more frequently and while some say in MLS they don't play youth because coaches want to win, these clubs want to win and need to win even more, and many of the top clubs in these league are playing many youth while doing so.

Number of U22's for top 3 clubs in:

Ered:

1) Feyenoord: 9
2) Ajax: 19
3) PSV: 7

Ligue 1:

1) Monaco: 13
2) PSG: 8
3) Nice: 11

Bund:

1) Bayern: 3
2) Leipzig: 9
3) BVB: 7

Portugal:

1) Benfica: 10
2) Porto: 7
3) Sporting CP: 7

MLS (current top 3):

1) TFC: 4
2) NYC: 4
3) Chi: 4

 

Well Arriola is only earning 650 k but your still stands because I can't think of another 22 year old earning that much. That's Nagbe money.

 

Nagbe is absolutely nothing special as a club player. I can easily see Arriola being more productive. And at 22 Arriola's resale value is probably higher as Nagbe isn't going anywhere ever.

 

Comparing MLS to the best leagues in the world really is apples and oranges. These leagues are far more competitive, however, they are also able to buy and recruit the best young players from across the world. The level of U22 talent in Bundesliga, Ligue 1, etc if FAR superior to that in MLS. The best U22 talent in the US is by and large American players. If you sent the same 42 U22 MLS players with 500+ MLS mins to the more competitive leagues your comparing them to you're not going to all of a sudden see their minutes go up. They would, in fact, decrease drastically.

 

Jond, what about domestic youth players from those leagues? That might be a better barometer.

 

LOL, I'll just leave it at that. You could try talking to Bruce and see if you can convince him.

Another player with a more similar style is Kljestan. He started earning 700k in Belgium. The thing about both Nagbe and Kljestan though is that they both went to college. In Arriola's case, he may be 22 but he has 4 years as a pro. Really it's the second contract that establishes your value as a pro.

 

Right, but we cannot compare any of our prospsects here to Pulisic. He's a complete and total outlier. Pomykol and Ferreira are not Pulisic. Not many German 16-17 year olds play consistently in the Bundesliga or Premier League or La Liga either.

Pomykol did have an injury that kept him out for much of May. While he was out, Mauro Diaz returned from injury. We can't ignore the fact that one of the reasons that Pomykol was getting playing time was that Diaz was out. Once Mauro returned that pushed everybody down a level on the depth chart.

People don't need to preach to me about needing to find minutes for young and talented players. There's a difference, though, between U22s (which is the chart that folks are referring to above)........................and 16-17 year olds. If the coach doesn't think they're ready, then I understand that. These kids for FCD are actually attending high school much of the day and just joining FCD for part of the training sessions. That's just a fact for these kids in the US.

I wrote some playing time projections for players at the start of the season here. I think Pomykol and Ferreira are on track to meet those projections. I think I said 10 appearances for Pomykol, just an introduction for Ferreira, and nothing yet for Reynolds.

What I was wrong about, much to my consternation, was the projection for Cannon and Craft. Early in the season, Coy appeared to be beaten out for right wing minutes by Pomykol. I don't know what's going on with him, because he's not playing for OKC either. Cannon I had a high projection on.......................and then they signed Grana. I still would hope for many more minutes with Cannon because he performed very well in the USOC opportunities he had. Still.............................Hollingshead is now also back into the rotation at fullback as well. And that can't be overlooked.

I just think this never-ending discussion about 16-17 year olds getting playing time in MLS isn't the right focus. Our equivalent prospects of that age in Europe (Pulisic aside) aren't getting first team minutes. Taitague or Haji Wright or Olosunde or..........insert name here..........don't get first team minutes. McKennie played one 15 minute stretch of garbage time for Schalke last season. That's not some sort of example of how Bundesliga teams give more minutes to youngsters than MLS.

MLS needs a development plan for those players from the academy to the reserve/USLPro team to the first team. Its the Palmer-Brown, Tommy Thompson, Reggie Cannon types that should be getting more playing time as 18-19 year olds. That's who people should be freaking out about. That's the list that jond posted. And I'm fine with that. Not frickin' Jesus Ferreira.........................(BTW, how many American MLSers younger than Ferreira have appeared in an MLS game this season.)

 

Nagbe on NT and Nagbe in MLS are two different Nagbes. The one from NT doesn't hibernate during the games. So far at least.

 

In this forum I really don't care. There are a lot of players to compare with against Arriola. I'm sort of using your posts to add additional comparisons anyway so it's not a total loss.

Another set of players to compare to are the 1995s who became pros early in MLS. Thompson at 155k, Acosta at 260k, Delgado 210k, Allen 178k. No two ways about it, Arriola clearly has an advantage there. In particular, Acosta is a head scratcher.

 

How many minutes did Luca de la Torre get with Fulham last year as an 18 year old? Or Marlon Fossey at Fulman? Or Andrija Novakovich? What has Zelalem done to this point?

All were trying to break into leagues that were roughly on par with MLS. Only Zelalem found any real minutes last year, not really impressing in the 2nd Division of Dutch League, which is likely below the level of MLS.

So perhaps these coaches are also part of the conspiracy to hold down American Youth or perhaps it is just harder to break in around the globe unless you are the cream of the crop.

Some of these prospects that we keep harping on will end up no better at their peak than the MLS player that we think they should replace as an 18 year old.

I think you have to trust the coaches by and large. Coaches are human and will make some mistakes, but they see the players day in and day out. I think they get far more decisions right than wrong.

At least if all teams had USL affiliates and used them then these younger players could get minutes there and if they dominated the league for a 1/2 a season then you could have a legit barometer to judge them. Even still players like McBean dominate USL, but are 2nd/3rd striker options in MLS.

 

Like Marc Pelosi sitting on the bench watching Thompson and Yueill play.

Any way you look at it, it's astounding how many YA players in Europe have failed. Taking away the players with a strong European connection like Rossi, CCV or the Germericans the record is really sparse. When you drill down to those who went straight Europe at 18 the record is even more sparse. Spector, Wood, Pulisic and I think that's it. Donovan is hard to count as a European success because he really blossomed in MLS. There is just something to be said about developing in your hometown.

 

Why can't we compare players to Pulisic. He is the bar that we should be striving for. It's my understanding that people view Pomykal as one of our top 1999s. If so, then thinking he could play in MLS at the same age that Pulisic was playing the Bundesliga isn't even close to the same bar. If they aren't going to play him, why did he sign. Why not just follow McKennie's path. Same with Ferreira... why not go down to Colombia until he's 18 yo.

FCD is the poster child for youth development, but they've dragged their feet with having a USL team and now have some of the best 16, 17, and 18 yo that need a higher level than the current USDA. They've shown they aren't out of place with FCD but DPs cut the allowable spots by 2-3 and guys like Hollingshead are going to take other spots away. You can put your FCD fan hat on and talk about winning championships but as a USMNT fan, I'm going to the team that is best at developing players still has significant flaws that can stall players development.

This whole attitude about age has to change. Players that go on to have international careers for top teams are often the ones that break through at young ages. Just take that Belgium side that knocked us out of the World Cup 3 years ago. Many of those guys made their national team debuts before turning 20 and few more were right after that. Kompany, Hazard, De Brunei, Lukaku, Benteke, Origi debuted in Belgium, Holland or France before turning 18.

Between the 15/16 and 16/17 season, 7 players under the age of 18 played in the Bundesliga. Those 7 plus 23 more who were under 19.

Club Date Age at the time
1
Kai Havertz Attacking Midfield Oct 15, 2016 17 years 04 months 04 days
2
Christian Pulisic Right Wing Jan 30, 2016 17 years 04 months 12 days
3
Felix Passlack Right-Back Mar 2, 2016 17 years 09 months 02 days
4
Ismail Azzaoui Right Wing Nov 21, 2015 17 years 10 months 15 days
5
Julius Kade Attacking Midfield Apr 5, 2017 17 years 10 months 16 days
6
Silas Zehnder Secondary Striker May 20, 2017 17 years 10 months 20 days
7
Fabian Reese Centre-Forward Nov 21, 2015 17 years 11 months 23 days

https://www.transfermarkt.com/1-bun...nIdBis=2017&land_id=&pos=&spielerposition_id=

I'm I'm not freaking out about Ferreira... I'm just saying he's shown he can hang in MLS and absent a better option than youth games, the team should be giving him more small opportunities. I don't get the arbitrary cut off at 18-19. Age shouldn't matter and if that arbitrary cut off is there, then there is no reason to sign until 18 and test the global market.

 

I guess its astounding how many players have gone into MLS by 18 and failed. This is a list i made in another thread of top MLS only careers...

Pope, Besler, Nagbe, Zusi, Wondowloski, Beckerman, Conrad, Davis, Acosta

I think Acosta is the only one that signed by 18. I'll take Spector, Wood, and Pulisic over Acosta any day. You start addin guys who went there staight out of college at around 20 and pick up other guys like Reyna and Cherundolo which I'd take over the rest of those guys and only one that I think is debateable is Pope.

It be great to develop in your hometown, but it hasn't really happened yet. It isn't a good sign when a guy like Miazga gets lots of minutes at a young age in MLS, but it takes being purchased by Chelsea and loaned to a Dutch side to be told at 21 that he has to better distribution out of the back

 

Nobody is asking for an MLS only career. That's a strawman if I ever saw one. This is purely and simply development from 16 or 18 to 22. This is after all what this forum is about. We're all realistic and understand that if a guy has only been in MLS his whole career he probably hasn't reached a very high level.

The question here is quite simple. Where is the best place for a player to start? The answer is not even close to being straightforward. Pulisic is a bright shining light but Europe has taken some of our very best and the results haven't been that great. I posit that homesickness and unfamiliarity is a big issue. Try this comparison of two groups that are probably very similar in size. American raised players that go to Europe at 18 and European raised dual citizens. I posit that by age 18 the number of the former in European academies is greater than the latter. Yet the number of successful players is much greater in the latter.

Simply said, developing in a familiar situation is an important factor and should not at all be discounted.

 

Yes, the argument is a bit too simplistic. The fair statement is that just about every one of our all time best players have benefited from time in Europe. The leap I'm taking is if they benefited from doing it at 24 or 22 or 20, why wouldn't they have benefited from doing it sooner. There a tons of factors that could lead to a player not being ready at an earlier age.

Some kids thrive immediately when going to college, while some can't handle being on their own. In my opininion, kids who have gone away to boarding school are more prepared for college than those who lived at home. I believe the sooner you start preparing for things the more likely you'll be ready.

On the last bit about the importance of developing in a familiar situation, I'm not completely on board. Elite athletes are wired differently. They are much more mentally tough and have incredible confidence in themselves. Now that we are getting more players abroad, hopefully networks are being built to help provide these young kids with assistance to cope with the situation. Pulisic was lucky his dad could go with him and kids at schalke are probably relieved to have a couple other Americans there and CP down the road. In the end, these kids have to learn to be professional athletes and bring it every day. If the environment that you are familiar with wherever you live doesn't provide that education then the benefits in being in it are overshadowed by not prepping you for the next level.

I completely believe Dempsey could have handled moving abroad straight out of school and he would have been much better for it. I completely believe LD and Steffen greatly benefited from tryin it and realizing it wasn't for them at that point. In Steffen's case, I hope he figures out a way to make it work in the next couple of years or he will likely fall behind guys who are in that environment day in and day out.

 

I agree. I think he improved markedly at a position where we don't necessarily have prospects falling out of the rafters. If we had trouble at the WC, I tend to think it was more due to our CMs and RBs than any shortcoming on Acosta's part.

 

Maybe also GK and attacking mids at times.

 

We're not though. We're talking MLSers.

Breaking into an MLS team at 17 is entirely different than breaking into a top 10 club at 17. I mean, FCD probably doesn't rank top 150 globally.

 

Adams made a fantastic defensive play in extra time to help NYRB hold onto their 3-2 lead .in the Open Cup.