Japanese International Thread [R]

Discussion in 'Asian Football Confederation' started by shuvy87, May 6, 2004.

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  1. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    nice to hear from you, Lakeside. I was thinking how lonely this thread has been recently...in contrast to the activity in the Korea/China/Iran forums... :) I'll babble my responses below --

    His emphasis on the Kazu/etc group probably resulted from what he saw leading up to the last world cup, in which the tornado of enthusiasm essentially left them behind without a glace...new era, new coach, new superstars, chance at playing WC at home... As an ex-international player and a star at that, he probably felt that there was value to bringing them back to the team before the next year, in which there would be little time to spend on events like this and before they got older too.

    As for whether he cared about the starters, and why he came up with this idea now, to use in the WCQ match against Singapore:

    From my understanding, there are a number of logistical and value hurdles that Zico had to consider. 1) that the European players' clubs would put up a mighty stink about letting them go. With next year's difficult schedule to think of, Zico knew that this was not the place to pull rank with them. 2) the J-League is in the midst of the final games -- many of the concerned players are part of teams that have a chance at championship, or are in danger of slipping to the J2. As you probably know, the schedule for the NT training next week will be interrupted once/twice, in order for them to join their J team for scheduled games. 3) this is the final game, played in front of the home crowd, but is essentially a moot game wrt qualifying. How do you bring interest and meaning/value to this game so that the fans can be a part of that progression into the next round? 4) the emphasis on winning the game, giving it value by not being a throwaway.

    The other big issue that was argued was the idea of using young/new players. In effect, experimentation would probably create more questions than answers with this game. I'm not sure how one could qualify the performance of these new players or of any new strategies. The opponent is nothing like any of the teams Japan will be seeing in the next two years, and it may provide a warped view of any outcome, leading to confusion later on. I get the impression that Zico is more concerned with "testing" his team during games against high-level teams, as this is where players will be closest to the bar at WCQ/WC06. I really believe that in the training session scheduled for next January, you will see some of these "new" players being called up -- they will be watched in training and used accordingly in the friendlies ahead. In fact, some of them will probably be called up in the Germany match...

    And to give symbolically the juiciest portion of the qualifying games this year to people who had nothing to do with the efforts of the NT this year or leading up to the present Japan football scene.... perhaps it didn't jive with his notion of what the game should represent/project going forward.

    I don't get the impression that this was a callous idea borne out of no thought, but perhaps the best idea he could find to satisfy all the above.

    But the team, both starters and subs, have indicated their wish to have the sub group play -- their own desire for experiencing the qualifiers and being part of the push ahead to next year, even though it will mean a heavy and erratic schedule for them. Zico heard them, and that was that.
     
  2. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    btw, I was not sure whether you were happy with this starting lineup. You said that you wouldn't think other countries would send anything but the best available, but you also react positively to using the non-regulars like Doi and Okubo... I guess you mean that the "best available" includes the sub group...? So your idea of experimentation involves the entire 18man squad, not other young/new players..?

    I have no hecking heck idea what the AFC ever means to say! The letter has become this strange "legend"... no one knows why/when it came, for what reason, whether similar letters were sent to other countries, or really what it exactly said (except for the famous "best" comment). Whatever!! :p
     
  3. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    Given that this game was about letting the sub group play, I think Zico thought it would be more appropriate to go with the 4-4 formation. And perhaps more fun -- it's more of an attacking formation, isn't it? With lots of passing/dribbling players, it will be different from what Japanese supporters have seen recently... and grumbled about... :D

    You're right about the midfield... it will be interesting to see how they create space and change positions. Do you follow J-League? Any guys you like in this team?
     
  4. LakesidePark

    LakesidePark New Member

    Dec 17, 2001
    Kanagawa, Japan
    Thanks for insightful comments, buggy. How the Singapore game appeals to the fans is a question, I agree. I know some of them would be more interested if Kazu and co. played, but I have a different feeling on this, since I don't agree with honoring their past glory in an official match at the expense of the subs. The reason why people regard Zico's idea as disrespecful to Singapore is that you should do your best whenever you can. A watered-down squad significantly degrades the quality of football, meaning that you take the enemy lightly, and therefore it is considered rude. Well, it's some sort of the samurai spirit, I guess. True, we've moved on to the Final Round already, but it's still a WCQ, nonetheless.

    I'm fairly happy with the lineup because it should have enough cohesiveness to entertain us. It's a bit conservative choice in my book though, considering that the opponent is Singapore and the result is not evaluated by anybody.

    The best 'possible' Japanese World Cup Squad would consist of:

    A. The Asian Cup winners (both starters and subs)
    B. Nakata, Inamoto, Ono, Takahara, Kubo, Tsuboi, and Narazaki. None of them played in the Asian Cup.

    C. Some of the Athens Olympians, like Okubo and T. Tanaka
    D. Other J-League stars, such as Oguro and Murai


    So the Asian Cup starters + the seven players mentioned in B would make up the core of the World Cup roster, while the Asian Cup subs + C & D would form the second eleven.

    In the Singapore game, the best 'available' squad would be:

    A. The Asian Cup starters and subs. The subs will get more playing time than before.
    B. Only Narazaki is available out of this talent pool.


    He could have used the players belonging to the C and D categories as well. It's hard to do experiments in important games, so I think now is the time to make an adjustment to the team because of the following conditions;

    1. The football calender seems to be very congested next year.
    2. Japan is going to face increasingly difficult opponents, even in friendlies.
    3. Japan must qualify for the World Cup.
    4. We have only two years left.

    C. Here's the starting lineup against Italy in Athens. The Italy squad included De Rossi, Gilardino, and Bonera.

    G: Sogahata (Kashima)
    D: Tulio (Urawa), Moniwa (Tokyo), Tokunaga (Waseda University)
    M: Abe (Ichihara), Konno (Tokyo), Ono (Feyenoord), Matsui (Kyoto -> Le Mans), Komano (Hiroshima)
    F: Takamatsu (Oita) and Okubo (C. Osaka)

    Ishikawa, a winger, has already played for the senior side. Abe is good at taking free kicks. I also like to see how Konno fares at the top level, as a possible backup defensive midfielder. Okubo was regularly playing for the senior side without any goal for quite a while, and then went back to the Olympic team. Now that he is on his way to Spain, I'd like to see if he is for real or not.

    D. Let's take a look at an exhibition game between Japan Selection vs Hungary Selection on Oct. 10.

    G: Sogahata (Kashima), Hayashi (Hiroshima)
    D: H. Suzuki (Iwata), Yamaguchi (G. Osaka), Kitamoto (Kobe), Nasu (Yokohama)
    M: Hattori (Iwata), Ito (Shimizu), Toda (Shimizu), Murai (Ichihara), Futagawa (G. Osaka), H. Tanaka (Yokohama), Kikuchi (Iwata)
    F: Bando (Kobe), Oguro (G. Osaka), Takamatsu (Oita), and Okubo (C. Osaka)

    This is a mixture of the Atlanta and Athens Olympians in addition to other outstanding J-Leaguers. I'd like to see Oguro and Murai to find out what the fuss is all about. Oguro has already scored 20 goals, only three goals behind Emerson. Is Murai any better than Santos? Santos is a liability when it comes to defense on the left side, you know.

    No, I don't follow our league closely enough, other than watching games on NHK BS. I'm thinking of attending Marinos matches regularly from now on because it's the closest team and I'm an avid fan of Kubo.
     
  5. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    The idea of "respect" is a difficult one to look at objectively, as there are two sides to it -- inner emotion/intention and outer looks. I think Zico was more concerned with the first, but ended up compromising the latter in the eyes of orthodox thought. But I think people aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his intentions. People could be against the idea of calling up Kazu/etc because they feel it is inappropriate given what is considered "normal" -- that's a valid argument. But I feel the argument gets blurry when they say that he had a disrespectful attitude towards Singapore. And if he had made the game about "experimentation" for the sake of fiddling around, you could say that that could be considered disrespectful.

    He could have played it out "normally" without all this fuss, and it would have been "just another" game... Sure, people say "It's a WCQ for godssake!" but with an air of taking the game for granted -- like you said that it wasn't evaluated. But by bringing attention to the idea of this being a Symbolic game, with historical meaning to whoever players participate in it (whether it was the past stars who gave a lot to Japan football and now may have been remotivated to aim higher, or the starting 11 who wanted to give the game to their teammates who contributed off the pitch up til now, or to the bench 11 who spoke up to say they wanted to be a part of WCQ history), I think he made everyone conscious to many more things. Even debates like the ones you and I are having has value to me, as we have the oppotunity to rethink or reconfirm our initial assumptions and reactions.

    In the end I think the fragile hearts of Japan supporters probably could not have taken any more controversy on this matter :D so I'm pretty satisfied with how things turned out, much like your thoughts.
     
  6. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    Kubo is definitely a nice player to have available -- too bad he doesn't seem to be available for a while! :( If he can't control his injuries/fitness, it will be touch-and-go until the WC... but definitely high quality. And seems to enjoy the team now (as opposed to the Trous days) with regard to fellow players and coaching style -- a feat in itself as he is quite a unique character!
     
  7. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    Hey Rougou, here's some news. I wasn't happy with the response they sent you, so I sent another note to them about the articles we were talking about. I told them that fifa had authored it, and that although mistakes happen, this amount of mistakes in one paragraph is really insulting to readers, a waste of readers' time who want to enjoy reading accurate analyses, and a waste of fifa's money as they are paying someone to write it.

    I looked at the article today, and it looks like things were corrected. Power to the people...!...?

    "Their record against the Seleçaostands in stark contrast to that of Japan, who have managed one draw in six encounters.

    Already through to the next phase of the Asian Zone qualifiers for the 2006 FIFA World Cup™, the Japanese continue to rule the roost in the AFC. Since the start of the year, Zico’s charges have also started to produce some impressive performances further afield against strong opposition. Though they fell to Argentina (1-2), they overcame the Czech Republic (1-0), Serbia and Montenegro (1-0) and held England to a draw (1-1) in Manchester last June."
     
  8. rougou

    rougou Member+

    Dec 7, 2003
    Hyogo
    Club:
    AS Roma
    yeh, Matsu posted an article on his site(http://www.wldcup.com/Asia/news/index.html) about this. I think him writing about it got a few people to send feedback. But according to Matsu's article, the FifaWorldCup article was corrected for one day, but then for some absurd reason changed again saying Japan lost to S&M. Matsu then wrote to them again, and finally it seems they fixed it for good.
     
  9. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    cool site...it's great that there is some "force" on the internet for Japan supporters... and in English, too, which was surprising to me. I wish there would be more passion and organization for some of the other asian countries, like mine, to generate some waves.

    Anyway, the whole thing was rather weird. I think it's great that people wrote in. On the internet, you're never quite sure how much influence you really have as surfers, but in this case they didn't have any excuse not to fix it.
     
  10. LakesidePark

    LakesidePark New Member

    Dec 17, 2001
    Kanagawa, Japan
    So the FifaWorldCup article said that Japan lost to S&M TWICE??!! despite our complaints?! That's really absurd. :mad: Are they blaming Reuters and AP for the lack of fact-checks? I don't think either of these news agencies would make such moronic mistakes.

    Anyway, Japan should keep playing tough teams and make those ignorant **** aware that we ain't puny.
     
  11. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    Probably some intern working at the fifa site -- since the article required NO reporting, just fact-assembling. Any of us could have written it.... Their canned answer to anything is that the articles are usually not written by fifa, but are picked up from other news agencies, which sounds like typical customer care!! :rolleyes: "It's not our fault, you didn't read the fine print"
     
  12. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    You must be looking forward to seeing how the members work out for next year -- with Item B (above) players coming back next year, the squad looks rather crowded... The tough opponents lined up for next year should give a good challenge for the JapanNT. And provide a lot of entertainment for supporters in prep for WC.

    The "fuss" over Oguro and Murai was interesting to note -- I do not know non-NT players at all, really, but maybe if you get a chance to watch any Jgames you can report back here? :)

    Between Okubo and Tanaka, which do you think is more ready for NT? I hear Tanaka, though technically as capable, is less consistent, if not technically than mentally/emotionally.

    Ishikawa may just be ready to return to the NT. Anyway, that position doesn't have many alternatives, and he seems to have really matured and increased stamina, aggressiveness, focus, leadership. Especially in the NabiscoCup, which was a treat to get a hold of and watch. And I heard Zico was at the game too...

    Speaking of Zico, what is the impression you get with regard to how he picks his players? I can't get a consensus on this from Japanese friends, but the only thing I notice is that every player has a unique character/style and most are extremely intelligent in gameplay. It's a very esoteric way to choose players if this is the case!
     
  13. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    they are full of ********. how many time did i tell you since the day i came here? just insult them all at fullest extent. they deserve nothing but insults. anyway nobody gives ******** about serbia so no biggy here. i think they are as good as oman but not really japan's threat
     
  14. Marchetti

    Marchetti Member

    Sep 23, 2004
    Chicago->STL->Denver
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Question:

    On paper, who has the better chance of winning a match between Nippon and the United States of America?

    I think a lot of positions cancel each other out on both sides, like Landon Donovan and Nakata Hidetoshi... but the Americans definitely have the better keepers (Keller, Freidel, Howard), and Japan might have better wingers (like Ono), and better natural forwards (Takahara, Narazaki).

    I really can't say who would win on paper, but it would be a good match.
     
  15. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    The US certainly has the fitness and mental strength, plus experience with quite a number of south/central american teams recently. Also the win against Mexico this year sounds good. The US can be unstoppable when they catch a good wave, and perhaps that is their most scary alpha factor.

    NakataH is currently an unknown factor -- though he is the most famous and in general strongest player on the JapanNT, he has been out of action for many months and is only finding his former strength this month. Also, because he has been away from the NT since March?, no one seems to know how he will fit back into the team.

    Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but Ono is not really a winger...?

    And Narazaki is a goalie, not a forward. Perhaps you mean Yanagisawa (who plays now for Italy's Messina)?

    I have not seen the US play all year, except for recently when I saw a clip of the recent game against Panama (only goal scenes though, so not much help). Looks like the US kicked some A.

    The US and Japan have met only ONCE (surprising!)-- in 1993, in Japan, where Japan won 3-1. But this info is way too old to mean anything.

    I hear that the US and Japan may play a friendly next year -- is this where you are coming from? You're right, it should be really interesting to see these teams play.
     
  16. rkim291968

    rkim291968 New Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    CA, USA
    One can draw some conclusion on how Japanese will do against USA by looking at Korea vs USA results in the last 4 - 5 years. They have met numerous times in USA and in Korea in that span. If you average things out, the matches have been pretty close. I would say USA had a slight edge overall although Korea dominated the WC02 match at home. Japan will have tough match against USA if they play at full length in neutral site. In that case, I will bet on USA to win.
     
  17. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    So I hear that the Japanese football association and Zico have decided to schedule a charity match on Dec 4, to raise money for the victims of the big earthquake in Niigata (sp?)

    The match will take place in Niigata Big Swan, and will be between the Niigata Albirex and a Zico "Dream Team" people assume will be made up of past stars like Kazu, etc. plus other players who have played for the NT up til now.

    They will give all profits to the victims, and players will not be paid. So I guess, Japanese football fans can get their Kazu now (though still not the same as an official match, perhaps the best compromise?).

    Has anyone heard anymore about this? esp who is going to be picked?
     
  18. TrooperBari

    TrooperBari Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2001
    Jakarta
    It's probably a push overall - each side would win at home and draw at a neutral site.

    The U.S. is the bigger, more physically gifted team and Japan has a solid technical edge. Japan might have problems if Arena were to load his side with guys like Onyewu, Sanneh, Casey, etc. and throw them forward on set pieces with Bocanegra.

    I burned my free Delta Airlines voucher under the impression that the U.S. and Japan were going to play in Seattle in March 2002, but it didn't happen. I ended up having to settle for a 4-0 pimp-slapping of Honduras and an Ichi-roll.
     
  19. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    ok, you're funny ,and I'm sorry to hear about that wasted voucher -- but I hope the Ichi-roll was good! :D

    i'd say the more Japan knows their opponent, the better they play, so the advantage may be to the US. The US team is fairly young, isn't it?
     
  20. TrooperBari

    TrooperBari Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2001
    Jakarta
    It was OK ... I'm told the Daimajin rolls were better, but they didn't have any at the time.

    The U.S. can be young-ish, but it depends on who The Bruce decides to call up for a particular camp. Arena has a core group of vets he likes to call in (McBride, Sanneh, Pope, Reyna, etc.) who are starting to get a little long in the tooth, but there's usually a balance of experience and youth (Donovan, DMB, Ed Johnson, Boca).

    I'd really like to see the U.S. and Japan play at some point - maybe they could meet halfway and play in Hawai'i. It'd be a good matchup, though hopefully both sides will qualify automatically and avoid the CONCACAF-AFL playoff.
     
  21. buggy

    buggy New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    ugh. LET'S avoid the playoff... i can take these "qualifiers" for only so long...

    you know, the US is one of the teams being seriously considered by japan for a friendly in january. It all will be decided after the final round qualifier groups are picked in December. Depending on what teams end up in japan's group, the JFA will go ahead and schedule the friendlies... I guess they will pick teams that closely "match" the strengths and styles of the asia group teams. I'd say there is a high chance for the US and Japan to meet then, in Japan.
     
  22. LakesidePark

    LakesidePark New Member

    Dec 17, 2001
    Kanagawa, Japan
    '23 Japan 1-0 Singapore

    '13 Tamada put Motoyama's diagonal through ball into the net.
     
  23. rougou

    rougou Member+

    Dec 7, 2003
    Hyogo
    Club:
    AS Roma
    how is Ogasawara doing? what are the chances Okubo will get in this game?
     
  24. rougou

    rougou Member+

    Dec 7, 2003
    Hyogo
    Club:
    AS Roma
    1 goal victory. nothing new I guess.
     
  25. LakesidePark

    LakesidePark New Member

    Dec 17, 2001
    Kanagawa, Japan
    FT 1-0

    Ogasawara was subpar tonight. I thought he was rather decent as a playmaker, but he made too easy passes, which were often stolen by Singapore. Fujita wasn't all that effective in the first half and rightly subbed out.

    Okubo came on in the 59th minute and nearly scored his first goal for the national team in the last minute. Again disallowed! Poor Okubo, 'cause I don't think that was offside. Fujita should have gotten a penalty too in the first half. Refs were pathetic. :mad: Kaji and Suzuki have been booked (unfairly I think). Isn't there any replacement for Kaji yet? Frankly, he's not doing his job in the right flank. I see no point of using him with his yellow card in the first game of the final round.

    A very disappointing, frustrating performance by the Japanese subs. None of them impressed me tonight, except maybe for Tamada, Matsuda, and Doi. Doi saved our face from a humiliating draw in the very last momenent. It was like an away game overall. Well, that's an overstatement but Japan didn't really control the game. The attack was monotonous because everybody kept passing either sideways or backward. Also their pace didn't change at all. The Singaporeans probably thought that Japan's attack was predictable. Japan repeatedly invaded the open space in behind the Singaporean defense but was able to exploit it only once.

    Singapore was more organized in terms of defense. Our players rarely pressured them in the midfield, and much of the blame should go to Endo and K. Nakata.

    It doesn't bode well for the team that will face Germany next month. :(
     

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