Positioning question....

Discussion in 'Coach' started by HScoach13, Apr 28, 2017.

  1. HScoach13

    HScoach13 Member+

    Nov 30, 2016
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Our season ended and it is time for some reflection. We had two major problems in our 4-4-2 diamond system. Both problems created what I call doughnut soccer. Doughnut soccer is when a hole is created in the midfield by 1) Central midfielders being sucked to high up in the attack leading to being very susceptible to being counter attacked.(We were able to for the most part fix this) 2) Midfielders bogging down the central defense by following possession in. This left opposing central midfield unmarked and for and easy drop or recovery of a poor clearance/blocked shot.(Were not able to correct) We gave up one of our goals in the state playoffs when a ball came back hot into the middle and a CM stepped forward and smashed it.

    Any suggestions on drills to correct this. As my name implies this is High School level. These are mostly very highly skilled Hispanic players with very little experience playing organized soccer no club players.
     
  2. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #2 rca2, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
    If I understand correctly, you are asking about an exercise for problem 2.

    I assume that you are playing a zone with 2 lines of 4 instead of a man to man defense. The problem situation is when both CMs sag back when the ball has penetrated behind them. Apparently the 2 strikers are not sagging back so there is a large gap between the strikers and the CMs with an opponent in the gap between the lines.

    So I see two problems. 1. The CMs are dropping back when the back line is still numbers up which means that the midfield line is losing its proper shape (we could call it lack of depth or too flat). 2. The strikers and CMs are not reacting to an opponent who has found space in a gap. Someone needs to reduce that gap between the lines.

    The exercise I would use is shadow play running through your system and how the adjustments should be made as the ball and opponents move around the field. With HS age players, you could start with a chalk talk and then walk through the adjustments on the field. After the initial explanation and shadow exercise, I would add opponents and have them pass and move around so that the shadow play movements gradually increase to game-like movements.

    There are different ways to organize the defense so I won't get specific about what the adjustments are. Even if you are using zonal marking (man marking in individual zones) instead of a pure zone, I would still use shadow play to go over the system. If you have the midfielders defending man to man, I would suggest switching to zonal marking.
     
  3. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Not drills. Design your activities that place these donut players in the heart of the action. And it's up to your coaching (points) to make sure they don't lose their positioning.

    I'd make sure I'm giving my 6 and 8 a lot of attention in practice to correct this.
     
  4. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    In my view, some people are suited to playing CM and others aren't, and it's very hard to teach is to someone who isn't naturally suited to it. Some kids have a magnet on them that draw them too high, too far back or out to the wings, whereas other kids just "get" the CM position and have a natural feel for where to be. I suspect that you are simply putting the wrong people in the position, although maybe you lack the correct people. Truly attack-minded people often struggle in the CM position because they get too far forward and don't get back in time. Speed is not a prerequisite for playing CM. What you need is a high soccer IQ and great field awareness. Think a little harder about whether you are employing the right personnel in the position and whether maybe you have the answer to your problem sitting on your roster.
     
  5. HScoach13

    HScoach13 Member+

    Nov 30, 2016
    Club:
    Atlanta
    That is really and truly our problem. These kids although very skilled Hispanic players, lack soccer IQ. This is a rural school system with an hour drive to the nearest club program. These kids do not play club soccer. The school system only added a middle school program last season. They play basically street soccer and lack team concepts. We are trying hard to instill them.
     
  6. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    Well, if you have selected your players who are best suited to the position and they are still struggling, I would try a few things:

    1. Explain to the CMs that they must orient themselves on the field based more on where the other players are than on where the ball is. As a starting principle, they should be in front of the center backs and behind the forwards virtually always. If they are finding themselves even with or in front of the forwards (or behind the center backs) more often than maybe a couple times per game, then they are following the ball without regard to the positioning of their teammates. This may seem like it goes without saying, but for street soccer players who are used to following the ball without any regard for the positioning of their teammates, it needs to be explained explicitly.

    2. Make sure the other players are doing their jobs so that the CMs don't get stretched out of position. For example, the forwards need to be marking the short pass options on opposing goal kicks and pressuring the other team's defenders when they are in possession. If they aren't doing these jobs, sometimes the CM will take it upon himself to do it and will find himself out of position and overcommitted.

    3. Once you have explained the concepts, you can walk them through it in a scrimmage. Try playing a scrimmage where your center mids' only job is to position themselves appropriately. Tell them that for this scrimmage, you don't even want them to try to touch the ball, but just to put their bodies in the right place. It's like shadow boxing.

    4. Have them watch game footage with a focus on the center mids and where they tend to be in relation to the ball and in relation to their teammates.

    5. Give verbal cues in-game to keep them on script. Things like "stay central," "don't over commit," "let the forwards do that," or "let the center backs do that".

    6. If all else fails, try a different formation, like a 4-2-3-1 where both CMs are defensive in nature.
     
  7. HScoach13

    HScoach13 Member+

    Nov 30, 2016
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Thanks for your input we have been doing almost all of that. We have all but cured them of pushing up too far, its the crowding the CB's that they are struggling with. The plan for next season is 1) shadow play(have barrels in certain positions and call out where the ball is and have the whole team move to respond to where the ball is. 2) half field scrimmage where they are playing defense only in order to give them multiple reps and correct their positioning.
    We still struggle with soccer IQ we have kids that can really touch the ball well but regularly are beaten by better "teams". They just do not play well as a team.
     
  8. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Crowding CBs? Coach exactly the positioning you want to see.

    I can go into more depth about rondos/positional play through all the phases.
     
  9. HScoach13

    HScoach13 Member+

    Nov 30, 2016
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Crowding their own CB's.
     
  10. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Simplest solution is for GK and CBs to communicate when the spacing is wrong.

    Just up to you to show them the spacing you want in Situation X. It may take time. But make sure to praise them if they are in the right place. It may start with only 1% of the time-build from there.
     
  11. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #11 rca2, May 4, 2017
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
    There are a lot of high school coaches who would rather have your problem then theirs (lack of ball skills). :)

    This is a good approach. The problem, however, is not just making the right adjustments based on ball movements. I suspect you will also have to use opponent movement cues to recreate the problem. I don't know about your situation, but generally speaking opponents use off-the-ball runs to destroy the defensive shape. North-South and East-West runs, especially in the gaps. So phase 1, I would have the team respond to ball movement cues. Phase 2 would have the team respond to off the ball movement cues. Many times the correct reaction is to not follow the runner and trust your teammates to deal with the runner. (I suspect this might be your CMs problem. In pickup players often want to be on the ball all the time.)

    In my midfield playing experience (almost always zonal marking) I would mentally track how many opponents were behind me and that would tell me whether I needed to pick up the next runner. (Usually picking up the 4th runner to maintain numbers up in the back.) To substitute for this playing experience, I would try teaching mids not to come back unless their partner to the rear calls them back. This means CMs are reacting to verbal cues from the CBs and winghalves reacting to verbal cues from the FBs.

    This is similar to what elessar78 was saying about keeper-CB communication. Practicing communications is as important as practicing the movements.
     
  12. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    is there a language barrier with the players? Have you tried addressing this through all the learning styles? Listening, Visual, and doing?
     
  13. Peter Rival

    Peter Rival Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    I'd just like to second (third?) the point on communication. Your GK needs to be commanding the defense in part because, like a catcher in baseball, he/she has a vantage point that's unique on the field. After that your CBs need to be communicating on coverage, switches, pulling CMs back, etc. because e.g. the CMs could well miss a run that happens behind their back.

    In my recent adult game I was impressed at the communication coming from our GK and I think he was surprised (pleasantly I'd like to think) that every time he called me to watch someone I already had my eye on them and let him know. That's the kind of partnered bi-directional communication that makes for a tight defense. He'd pull me where he needed, I'd acknowledge; I'd pull mids back when the numbers required it, etc. Needless to say the other team didn't even come close to scoring from my side of the field. I'll go and try to learn some humility now... ;)
     
  14. HScoach13

    HScoach13 Member+

    Nov 30, 2016
    Club:
    Atlanta
    No language barrier they are all fluent in English. We have stopped(said freeze) play in order for the midfielders to see the problems. This has worked offensively We need to see this when we are playing defense, hence we will plan some half field scrimmages to highlight defensive positioning of CM's. I agree we also need to get the GK and CB's involved in communicating more on when to get the CM's involved etc.
     
  15. amq11

    amq11 New Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Jun 1, 2017
    Setting up restrictive passing drills with an offensive, middle and defensive third can help them understand positioning more. Allowing one midfield run can help to simulate a transition and help offensive players understand how to create space with their runs. Behind the defense is a goal with a keeper to incorporate shooting.

    This helped create more structure and have greater movement off the ball in games.
     

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