United States vs Argentina, Copa SF: General PostGame Thread

This game showed what Bedoya, Jones and Woods bring to the team--hustle, intense, competitive, etc. Those are levels much higher than Zusi, Beckerman, Wondo can bring.

Or you just change the style, let ball controllers Nagbe, Nguyen, etc to try a different way.

For whatever reason, you got worst of all.

 

Yeah the rest of the event didn't exist. The only game that matters is against a team who have Angel di Maria and Kun aguero as bench options.

 

The only person who was completely outclassed and shouldn't have been inside the stadium, let along on the pitch, is Klinsmann.

I love how in the build up the game Klinsmann talks about "going at your opponents and taking the game to them" and "throw a couple young guys in there and change the Game". Which was what, part of his plan to confuse and surprise Argentina? Because in reality, you're going to start two MLS players that are over the hill?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I almost can't believe that Klinsmann did it. It makes me question his basic decision making skills to be honest.

However, at the end of the day, Argentina is a better team than we are, and by a long shot. But I just can't believe the incompetency of Klinsmann.

Our team got this far in the tournament not because of Klinsmann, but in spite of Klinsmann.

 

Holy sh*t.

@ImaPuppy ain't nothin' to f*ck with...

 

No.
"This is why it's called 'football', not 'soccer'."

"This is why we don't care about this sport."

"And the USWNT are getting paid less than the Men?!?!"

Remember, these were casual fans. They wouldn't know whether or not to have a bias towards/against an American coach. But they would come into the game thinking: "Well I think we're bad/decent/good/mediocre, let's see how we do." And leave thinking we're bad.

 

Yeah, because I'm Master O or Adam Tash, right? I rag on JK all the time? I'm allowed to be mad after that garbage. Give me a worse US match. Find me a game where we had zero shots. Find me a game where we played worse.

Happy with the performances before the Argentina game. Would've been happy with a hard-fought loss. We got obliterated in a clueless, listless performance. Now, I'm not happy.

If we play better in the 3rd place game, my anger will be blunted, but this performance is a scar on JK's tenure.

 

Man, Chile really spanked the joie de vivre out of our Mexican friends, they're barely making fun of our defeat.

 

This whole narrative that the lineup did not play any part in the outcome is such crap. Don't get me wrong, our players made individual mistakes left and right. I don't place blame on Klinsmann for the team giving up a goal 3 minutes into the game. I don't place the blame on him for Birnbaum dummying a ball 20 yards in front of our net. But he is the manager. He is ultimately responsible for the roster that he puts out on the field. For the sake of the conversation let's put the outcome aside because everyone is fairly in agreement about that, people are just coming to it from different directions. With our best striker and two starting midfielders out, we were always at long odds to win against Argentina. Even with everybody available the odds still wouldn't have been in our favor.

Three days ago Venezuela faced this same Argentina team, Gaitan in for Lavezzi being the only difference. Their subs tonight, Lamela and Biglia, were also used as well. Venezuela were 10(4) in the shot department. We were 0(0) tonight. Zero shots... Venezuela forced SEVEN TIMES as many corners than we did tonight. I'm not saying soccer follows the transitive property, but the skill gap between Venezuela and us is that wide? Really?

I don't expect this team to be able to go toe to toe with an Argentina or Belgium, but they were once again thrown into the lion's den without any weapons. Argentina is a great team who are vastly more talented than us. They are always going to control the game and pin us back. Make them at least respect the counter. Wondolowski, Dempsey, Zardes, and Zusi doesn't do that. Dempsey, Bedoya, Zusi, and Davis didn't do that in Brazil. Don't let teams be comfortable with leaving two men back at midfield and having everyone else suffocating down on our players. Make Argentina keep those fullbacks and defensive mid a little bit deeper giving our players that extra ten yards of space to work with. They might not all be in this 23, but we have the players who are capable of accomplishing a 1/4th of what Venezuela did and fire a shot on goal against Argentina. What makes this all even more frustrating is that Klinsmann has been provided with all of this information. I give the guy credit. I feel that I have a much greater knowledge of our player pool today than I ever did under Bradley. I know quite a bit more about which of our players can play and where they can play at. We have seen A LOT of trial and error under Klinsmann which is a good thing. At some point though, he had to take that information and build the strongest team possible in order to compete. I thought he eventually would, I was wrong. I think that there are more than a few players in our team that share this feeling as well.

This is not some post-loss, in the moment hyperbole. I honestly cannot remember watching a game and feeling more embarrassed as a fan of this team. Even in Bradley's last game when Mexico banged in four unanswered goals from 0-2 down, we at least died on our feet instead of our knees. We were pathetic tonight.

 

We were missing 1/3 of our field players and the guys who supplied Deuce with most of his chances. The three we were missing would have generated chances. We were screwed but the semis was a worth price imo. Now all that is undone. I'm tired of this back and forth with people who can't admit we have 10 years to go to be a reliable QF world cup side and maybe 20 years to be in the same room as Argentina on a consistent basis. .

 

I'd settle for just being able to shoot a ball into the same room that Argentina are standing in.

 

We clearly lacked Woods movement up front and the experience of Jones. On top of that we added the heavy legs of Beckerman and Wondo. All of this with a star midfielder that cannot elevate the play of those around him in Bradley. If we are not ticking on all cylinders Bradley will not uplift the team through his play. He tends to break down with bad passes and giveaways.

Nagbe and Besler should have been in the starting lineup and perhaps even Pulisic in place of Zusi. This was simply a poor lineup from Jurgen who had a good tourney until he lost three players. His choices to me show a disconnect with what is needed and what we have. I actually like the guy but he simply screwed up the lineup tonight. Forget game plan because with some of those players starting there is no game plan that would have helped against Argentina.

 

I think Klinsi made his subs reading what people were saying here: Pulisic, Backerman out, Nagbe.

As if he were trying to prove all our ideas were not going to work anyway.

 

I've actually seen every single game we've played against top-10 opposition since the 1998 World Cup, and the majority of the USMNT's games in each calendar year since 1996. In 19 years of games, I cannot recall ever having zero shots. Even the B team we sent to Copa America 2007 had a better showing against a full-strength Argentina.

 

Start Besler at LB, Put Fabian in MF. Put Zardes up top with Dempsey. Hell keep Zusi in midfield and we would have been able to get a sog.

 

On top of all this, my FIFA machine isn't working this morning. #thanksJurgen

 

When Klinsmann brought on Birnbaum I was flabbergasted. You're down THREE GOALS and you bring on a flippin' centerback???? That's your attacking option (while Nagbe continues to sit on the bench). If you wanted Cameron in the midfield then WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST PLAY HIM THERE instead of wasting a sub for that action. Also, BIRNBAUM. If you're gonna make such a move, at least insert your best CB option (Besler) instead of that inexperienced turd who inexplicably gave the ball to Argentina for their 4th. I definitely don't see "top quality" in Birnbaum.

 

I don't care if we were fielding a U-20 side, at least muster up a shot. A chance. Something. Were we going to win? No, 90 percent of the time, maybe, with the way Argentina are on a roll right now, 99 percent of the time, we get demolished 4-0 just like last night. But to see us be so ineffectual for the entire game is a new experience for me. And maybe you accept that and can take it in stride, but I don't and can't. Most teams aren't in the same room as Argentina, but they still end up putting up shots, or controlling the ball for more than 2 passes.

After all that positive build-up ever since the 1st half vs. Colombia. Winning those games, controlling them for large stretches. After all that team cohesion, and all that momentum... JK was forced to make some changes. He ended up making terrible roster decisions, either had no gameplan, or had an ineffectual one, and the team absolutely crumbled into nothingness.

Yes, obviously some of this is on the players. All except Zardes had terrible games. But JK hurt them from the beginning, and then seemed unable to change the way that we were playing, or unable to change the personnel, to change the course of the game. I don't mean "change" like I expected a bunch of attacking chances and goals, but he couldn't do anything to help us gain possession for more than 5 seconds even. I know your go-to excuse is that the player pool is garbage and that JK lost key pieces. But JK chose a 23 man roster, and losing these players was not a surprise. He had many days of rest to gameplan, to prepare to lose those players. And he came out with a bad lineup and didn't do enough to right the ship.

Perhaps it truly is a 1-time deal. That's why a good 3rd place game will be a balm over last night's loss. But it's worth talking about.

 

Can someone find me the video of Wagner going off?? Shame that she is the one that is giving Klinsi shit, when the rest of the analysts have given him a free ride.

 

I do wish they will upload it, I deleted from the dvr. She did go on a nice mini rant, about how JK talks all this toe to toe stuff but picks the most conservative lineup he could. No one disagreed, ane no one should.

 

Yeah but he only gave Nagbe like 15 minutes to work with in a lost cause. Starting him at 0-0 would've proved more.

 

No. A shot from what distance. They know we cant control the ball with our MLS losers so they close down the passing lanes and dare us to come forward. They toyed with us. A shot from where? Shots don't mean shit. Coherent build up play or even coherent hold up play so you can get a shot that is worth taking means something. If you breath on MB he turns it over. If you look at Beckerman he backpasses and sometimes into space.We had no movement, no control, not first touch, no real ideas and we couldn't even execute basic skills. Our front 6 might as well have been pylons. Zardes and Yedlin were our only outlet from the press Argentina were doing. Clint had maybe 4 touches all night. Pulisic got punked like the 17 year old BOY he is which I warned so many about but hurr durr if you're good enough your old enough hurr durr. It was disgusting how weak the veterans were. Nagbe had 100 percent pass completion and still couldn't affect the game. Their damned CBs are better on the ball than Dempsey. What in the hell was that. We have such a long way to go to become a true world class team. I don't care about shots. Ghana had boatloads of shots but few were meaningful. What we needed was our starters and bench depth that doesn't exist. I expected this result but I am hoping it works for us be ending the tenure of MB, KB, GZusi and Birnbaum.

 

Sorry, read the first few pages and the last couple of pages, my thoughts:

1. Thank you Aly Wagner for calling out Klinsman -- that was NOT a 'go for it' lineup. It also was NOT a lineup that helped us develop experience for future 'big games'. It was an old lineup. I just can't believe that Wondo over Pulisic or Nagbe ever had a prayer to be right.
2. The reality, as others have pointed out, is that the way Argentina played last night, we were not going to win. BUT we were so toothless and so rattled it was crazy. And our veterans let us down:
   1. Bradley had one of the worst games I've ever seen him play, just bad.
   2. Wondo - nothing on offense and then commits a foul in a spot where they had to be told NOT to commit a foul - leading to Messi's goalazoo free kick.
   3. Guzan -- truly deer in the headlights on their first goal. Not saying he SHOULD have stopped it, but he SHOULD have either committed or stayed put, he did neither.
3. That first goal was just one case of how the team performed for the entire game: we 'clear' the ball to an UNMARKED Messi at the 20 yard line off a set piece. How the heck was Messi so open. He then does his magic and an unmarked Levezzi who chips an undecided Guzan.

This was a game where the person we missed the most was Jones.

 

Shooting a basketball requires a very similar ability to controlling a soccer ball with your feet. Please explain all the players who dramatically improve their jumpers. If Jordan hadn't done that, he would have been Julius Erving...a great player, but not even on the Mount Rushmore. That's another concrete example people have given you.

Facts actually don't hurt. They just show who is right and who is wrong.

 

Much of this is true; however, we should not be shellacked like this at our level; lesser known coaches with lesser players have had better results. I would expect the USA to lose this game but it would usually be a 1 or 2 goal game in a competitive match. I saw little heart, little skill, and a complete lack of confidence in a game where psychology matters ( hence Messi fiddling with his boots before taking a free kick that I said would be a goal ). We are not going to develop a team like Argentina in this country for a lot of the reasons you cite, but we should be able to be competitive; I note that looking at teams like Argentina I often note how little chance most of these players would have to make it in "American" sports because they don't have the size. In this country when you are not tall and muscular, they kind of relegate you to the bench early on and many kids who might play soccer are just turned off sports altogether or try to play sports like basketball when they have no chance at getting far in it. Even then, there is tennis, track and field, wrestling, and so on to choose from, where we have had elite players. The domination at this summer's Olympics will be obvious without the Russians there, for example. So, lots of sports to choose from, and probably less hours played from an early age, add up to differences that keep the US from being great. But they can be good. I've seen it. And the best players have been domestic over the years ( Mathis, Dempsey, Donovan ) along with foreign based talent that has as much right to put on the jersey as any other citizen.