Weakening the Bundesliga: Bayern-Wechsel und Transfergerüchte Vol. XXI

Discussion in 'Bayern Munich' started by NUFCBayern, Sep 24, 2015.

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  1. Fussballer

    Fussballer Member+

    Liverpool FC
    Sep 18, 2002
    In my head
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Mario fighting for his "position"? What position is that then? The one that Mueller plays? The one that Lewy plays? The ones that Costa/Ribery or Coman/Robben play? Bayern should've never bought him in the first place but it was a chance to weaken a rival, which it did but it really didn't provide the strength we sought in the long run.

    Kalle is just trying to put even more pressure on Goetze to get his arsch out of Bayern. While I think Pep made a few tactical mistakes along the way, in no way has he made a mistake about not playing Goetze. And Carlo seems to feel the same way.
     
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  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I understand Stats well enough - I just was not sure that "supersub" is an actual thing

    If we are to compare two players then it is critical we use the same baseline hence p90

    Of course each sample could include random noise so we would have to be very careful about extrapolating.

    However AFAIK p90 stats tend to be repeatable, so long as we use enough mins.

    You could of course use confidence intervals and stuff if you wanted to know "how real" the 10 goals for your player 1 are.
     
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  3. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The point I'm making is that these statistics need to be used in the proper context. Player performance is not linear with relation to time on the pitch.

    p90 stats are a very rudimentary snapshot of player performance that allow a basic level of comparison. I would caution reading too much into them.
     
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  4. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    For the "supersub" comment: Lets assume a player traditionally comes off the bench in the second half of matches for the final 15-20 minutes. He plays 34 matches and scores 11 goals.

    His raw stats would look like this:
    Matches: 34
    Goals: 11
    Goals/Match: .323

    Not great for a striker, but if we decide to assume his output will increase in a direct relation to his playing time in minutes (the way per90 stats work) we have a different picture.
    Assuming he plays an average of 17.5 minutes per match as a late sub.

    Minutes: 595
    Goals: 11
    goals/90 mins: 1.66

    Now I've used the magic of the per90 stat to take an average "supersub" type player and turned him into an all time great WC player.
     
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  5. dragonSLO

    dragonSLO Member

    Dec 24, 2014
    If such player would exist he would be the best supersub in the world by far! So he really would be a special player!

    I made some analysis after the end of the season of top 5 leagues.
    Adrian Ramos is comfortably the most efficient super sub with 9 league goals in 27 matches / 928 minutes, that's 0,33 goals per match or 0,87 per 90mins.

    So I repeat You made up an exceptional player and your conclusion "His stats are not great for a strike" is completely wrong. I do not claim that you could conclude "he's a WC player" because WC players are usually considered to be effiecient more than 20 minutes per game, but it would certainly indicate that this player has enormous potential to become a EC player.
     
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  6. _Amy_

    _Amy_ Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    France
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Would you be confident enough to start Gotze and leave Costa/Robben/Muller/Lewy out in an important match, say, Champions League semi-final?

    If not, that would mean Gotze is a sub, or super sub as you say. But a very expensive and unhappy super sub.

    I would prefer that he leave this summer, even to Dortmund. If not at least sort out his contract situation before the new season. I smell a Klose 2.0 here.
     
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  7. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    If Robben started a significant decline, combined with Goetze improving under a new coach? Why not?
     
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  8. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho Member+

    Aug 19, 2005
    Germany
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I would switch Costa for Götze any time. Costa came in guns blazing and then regressed very hard.
     
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  9. _Amy_

    _Amy_ Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    France
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Well that is a big if. He couldn't even beat a 34 years old Ribery. If we really think of a future without Robbery I would like it to be another highly rate winger, not Gotze.

    Let's see how the summer pans out.
     
  10. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho Member+

    Aug 19, 2005
    Germany
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    A good EC can change everything and that is also the reason why Rummenigges comments made no sense. Both Manchesters and Chelsea will spend big and that will get the market really rolling with others joining in (PSG). Götze playing a decent EC can easily get others suitors lined up. But thanks Kalle for killing the negotiation position in advance.
    And to be honest in my opinion Götze would have been dumb by epic proportions to join Liverpool before the EC because of that. Not only is Liverpool imo a treadmil team (disappoininting season, no international games, other EPL clubs have deeper pockets; Klopp still needs to show he can make it in EPL, ...). Before joining that bleak outlook I'd rather sit out the Bayern contract and then be a free agent instead of tying my ass to Liverpool for 3-4 years. Of course Götze could be just honest and really wants to make it here, and if he does we can thank Kalle again for probably shutting down extension talks resp. weakening our stance in this
     
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  11. Jolly Rancha

    Jolly Rancha Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    How do you beat when you are not even allowed to play? Ribery has been mostly rubbish bar the 2nd game vs Atleti

    He got a shot. Goetze never did! 1 bad game and he is benched to oblivion
     
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  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I guess i can't really take this hypothetical seriously sorry!

    11 goals in 595 mins is a fantastic result.

    But of course it could be due to random variation of lumpiness. So he might well play another 595 mins and score 2 goals.

    That's why these kinds of analysis normally include an idea of significance and minimum mins!

    The goetze data is well over 1000mins so we can't just dismiss it out of hand
     
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  13. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'm not dismissing the data on Goetze or anyone else. The entire point of that made up scenario is that you can't just use a simple projection of future performance without the understanding that increasing playing time =! a linear increase in output.
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    ok - but who argued that?

    In the end per 90 is a much better comparison than per game as per 90 uses a standardised baseline?
     
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  15. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'm just a bit of a stickler when it comes to statistics and math. Comes with the territory since that's what I do at work. :p
     
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  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    ok!
     
  17. Hendrik

    Hendrik Member+

    Aug 27, 2005
    Deutschland
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  18. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Nov 25, 2010
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Let the games begin! :rolleyes:

    This is all about that extension...

    If he thinks we're going to lose a WC striker now, he's got another thing coming.. His ass is ours for a few more years ;)
     
  19. Matakos

    Matakos Member+

    May 18, 2009
    Macedonia, Greece
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    He hasn't been exactly WC for us but I doubt there are any capable replacements out there to make sense to sell him. Higuain comes to mind but he would command a huge fee and he's older, too
     
  20. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho Member+

    Aug 19, 2005
    Germany
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  21. Obsidian

    Obsidian Member

    Apr 22, 2012
    near Munich
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    At the end it all comes down to him becoming our highest paid player with his extension. His agents are filthy scum nevertheless...as soon as the posse began back in his BVB- days with us approaching him, I hoped they wouldn´t play those games with Bayern. Well...
     
  22. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Hasn't been WC? He's the first striker since the 1970's to score 30 goals in a single BL season.
     
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  23. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Nov 25, 2010
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    That's the thing. He knows he's got us by the balls.

    Every team is facing this problem right now. There are very few real WC strikers these days, so if he left we would be left with absolutely nothing..

    Or muller as our main striker.
     
  24. albert_mk87

    albert_mk87 Member+

    Aug 27, 2008
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Dont know lewandowski never showed that he needs to be our highest paid player, vs every good oposition not only he didnt show anything special he looked pretty bad with very akward first touches and akward running with the ball plus lost most of the duels. 10,12 mil at most and maybe he takes his head out of his ass and starts performing because vs average bl sides we can bring back gomez and still score 20+ goals.
     
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  25. EmersonRW

    EmersonRW Member

    May 3, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Quite the contrary, Bayern München has Robert Lewandowski by the balls.

    If Lewandowski had ever taken a contract law course, he would realize that the contract he signed until June 30, 2019 puts him in a very weak position.

    Unfortunately for him, contracts are just about the closest thing to a "holy relic" as exists when it comes to his footballing career.

    So, Real Madrid can either pay €80 million or Lewandowski plays up top for Bayern again for the next 2 years. Pretty easy.
     
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