Mizuno Thread [9] - info, pictures, questions here.

every time i see new boots from all the brands, only 1 thing that came to my mind n heart, JUST STAY WITH MY BELOVED MORELIA II, she'll never disappoint me!

 

Yes, that's why I'm selling most of my Nikes & Adis for several more Neos!

 

If this quote is so shocking to you that I don't really see the point to discuss with you. Things change, standards change, also the bar is lifted higher. In 2012 Neo was a light boot. Is is light now? If you take them in your hands it is. But that;s not the point. The point is how are they doing in comparison. You don;t understand simple things my friend..

 

Thanks for such a long comment, it was nice to read it. As always i will try to show my perspective. in the first paragraph you say that there is surprisingly many articles about Puma and I'm a Nike fanboy. When it comes to Puma it comes from my approach to the whole market. I really try to say it out loud when someone deserves to be put in spotlight and last year two brands got that from me. It was Puma and Umbro. I feel that the progress they have made was a big one. And with that I still try to be fair. SL made a big impression on me, but isn't a top-shelf cleat when it comes to performance. That has been said. The evoTOUCH has really good leather, you will see. And that's something to encourage.

Nike - that's a fact, Nike is my favorite brand and that's something that I recently admitted to in unpublished (yet ) Q&A. Won't hide that, because my love for cleats started with Vapor I, so in a way this is just part of me. I try very hard to stay objective, and think that when it's not necessary to point out my PERSONAL ( i always say that it's personal) opinion, I really am objective.

TEPY.PL has now over 4 thousand articles in it's history and I'm sure that you didn't read everything. There were PLENTY of times when I bash someone and I think that there is no brand that haven't heard a bad word from me. I also complain about Nike, so I don't think that someone who is a frequent reader can say that there is a fanboy influence. Thing that I often say about Nike is that the 2-years lifetime of a boot is something that I don't like. That's too long. Also the change in next Mercurial generation is nearly no change at all. I really say that something is crap when it is crap. Vapor X review isn't so positive, I always say that the tongue that they, Phinish or Legend VI have is a bad idea etc. With that I also say to the people (readers) that my impressions are this, someone's else may be different. Every foot is different.

I have lot negative things to say about adidas Poland because I see negative things. Our team wasn't invited to bethedifference final as one in the world. They say that our league ball was a big success counting all Brazucas in the world on the league ball sales account. That's just lying, doing something unprofessional etc. Most of all certain people put some bad things on us to clear they name in front of the HQ. That's just bad. Thay did something to harm me and yes, in a way it;s a vengeance. Vengeance is to be AS HONEST AS I CAN BEE and pick everything that I can say about adidas Poland that is wrong. Yes, it's a personal war. But NOTHING is lying. Good thing for me that they FU** up really often and I can use that. Without that it would be impossible. I think that things will get back to normal. From what I know some people in adidas Poland just have to change their workplace. The result will be that I will be able to test more of their boots. That's what my fans would surely want me to do. Simple. But maybe they are afraid of bad opinion HEHEHE

New Balance send me to London to meet with Ramsey. I wrote that what they are doing on my market is nonsense. Because it is.

Puma in Poland had a terrible experience with me few years back when they advertised V1.08 in... 2011! Some people got fired, now they are doing very good. The same thing is going on now with Umbro license in Poland. I always stand by my market, by my readers. Believe me, I would earn 10 times more if it wasn't for that.

To be honest it's sad to read some things, but deep inside I know that this forum gathers people who love the same thing and You will understand my point. I also believe that brands will value my honesty after all. Many times we (you guys or me) know way better how to do things because we have long-time experience , different point of view and PASSION. That's valuable. OK so that was the first paragraph... what's next

I though that my opinion and why I think that way was pretty clear but it's a good comment if it wasn't, I'm glad to explain . Very interesting to hear from someone who seems to be on the other side of story. You are (or represent the opinion of) someone who values what mizuno is wright now. Respect for that. I am someone who look at all these approaches, brands, lines, products, and try to give a conclusion. For example I think that experiments like adiPure and even Tiempo (it's a bit different with Tiempo, I think that you would say the same) are crap. Umbro is doing it wright - speciali eternal is class and something I like - quality mixed with some moves to make it attractive for modern day client. Even if he thinks about buying them as third pair - that's a success for Umbro. But back to the point.

Mizuno has four lines. I think that they strategy isn't really just focusing on the core product as you guys say. It's not just about Speciali and giving it's fans what they want. They made Basara and failed. As I see it, they do want to compete on a wide range of product and approaches to football boots.

Studying their marketing plans I see that they put all bets on one card. The leather-light-innovation thing. That's just taking a wrong way. They are leather. The leather is lighter. But Mizuno isn't a light and innovative brand. But that's what they say. You guys mostly point out that I want from Mizuno to be innovative. That's not true. THEY are the ones to say that they are. And I'm asking where's the innovation? If you say you are something - be it.

And as a summary opinion, we all know that it isn't what Mizuno is and they won't be that brand. It's that they themselves can't figure that out. At least that's what it seems. In my opinion they should be a leather boot manufacturer. Because that's what they are. And if they say to people that they are light and innovative, they should really work hard to be it. Because I don't see any product backing up that statement.

Last words as always from my love to cleats - i think that they should make a innovative boot that would be a really modern thing, but put (on it) much focus on showing what Mizuno's soul is. Kind of a wink to the modern market saying "we are the shit! we can do anything. check out our philosophy". I would design a cleat like that myself

Ok guys thanks for reading if you did. I have to say that it's always nice to speak about cleats because here like nowhere else I can really find partners do discuss, and as we know there are not many people who know things like we do. However I would really like some opinions to be thought through, because what someone said about the EvoSpeed SL perspective for lightness was just not thought through in my opinion.

 

^^tl;dr

 

hello Zaki,
I will share my thoughts too if you don't have a problem
first of all, about this paragraph, when morelia Neo came out yes it came to match the speed boot market most because of marketing at first place.Why? because the "speed" market has the most profits from the sales so Mizuno entered this market mostly of having a shoe thats called "speed" boot. of course as we all know weight(at least a range of) is not even significant when we play and a speed boot is not gonna make as run faster.
So why Neo didn't update for 5 years? because it turned out as a very good boot! and in my opinion the best leather "speed" boot, most like a "light" classic morelia and went really well on the market, especially in Asia.
(One mistake you made on your "big" post, you said leather is lighter than synthetic, that's wrong)
Because Neos went so good Mizuno decided to make another silo in order to match the speed market, the Basara. I can't make any comments on that cause I haven't tried this shoe but surely it can't be a match for Mercurials, maybe through years they can reach at a good level but for now they are just in the beggining and I don't think that they can be compared to the "veterans" of the speed market.
All brands have their "fails", like Nikes change of T90s for Hypervenoms, adidas still trying to find their lost Predator "formula" etc..

Also another think cause of your comparison to the EvoSpeed SL, yes Puma has made the lightest boot but as they say it's for "limited" games. Do you think that Mizuno or other brands coudn't do the same?(adidas has released a concept a year ago) Mizunos first priority on their shoes is COMFORT and DURABILITY and they are the best in that.

Now about the "innovation" in Mizunos marketing, they made this "slogan" mostly for their running shoes which are very innovate if you use them, and because this is their main "slogan" they have added it to all products they have. Yes their football boots part may not be so "innovated" but it's about marketing like most brands do...

 

I think you've just made my point, but okay I'll bite (plus you did make that comment about me not thinking through it the statement)

What you need to understand is this: WEIGHT of a boot has a limit. its like terminal velocity. up till a certain point, to go beyond a certain weight, you begin to sacrifice one of several things, comfort or protection or durability. the EVO SL said it as much - only for 10 games. Ridiculous. It isn't like a power boot, or a control boot where you can dump in extra elements etc. Up till a certain point the weight of a boot becomes irrelevant if the material starts to give way when doing hard cuts etc.

Look at the larger picture. Focusing on merely how light a boot can go is pure myopia and a ridiculously stupid way of doing things.

Yes the bar is lifted higher - but to what point? Is there a point in releasing a 99g boot (looks at Adidas) merely for vanity's sake, that's not even entered into real production? That pros didn't even bother wearing for more than half a season?

you agree that if you hold the Morelia Neo's in your hands, then it is light. that is EXACTLY THE POINT.
That 50g (according to SR4U Evo SL is 140-ish grams and Morelia neo is something along 190g) doesn't mean anything unless you're their marketing guy, in which case its a marketing gimmick, one that seems to have worked pretty well considering how you're lapping it up.

right now the only bar EVO SL has lifted is how shameless football manufacturers have come to, and how low consumer standards have fallen, that they actually allow a boot manufacturer to sell a boot with a tag advertising that its only meant for 10 games (what?)

I'm not saying that Morelia Neo 2 is showing innovation (have yet to see it so no idea) but more of a reply to why I think the quote is shocking in that I feel your priorities are all wrong.

I've got no idea what marketing plans you've read and have even less of a clue how you decided that the leather-light-innovation is their thing but I'll play along.

FIRSTLY. Mizuno's marketing has always been about the quality of their boots. not just that they use leather, but quality, comfort durability. innovation comes from being able to put those same qualities of k-leather and comfort AND durability into 1 boot.

The fact that they've made ALL their silos have a Made in Japan version kinda shows a recognition that their unique selling point is their quality of kangaroo-leather and their innovation comes from being able to marry that with technology. Basara might be a failure (debatable) but the Wave Ignitus definitely is at worst - neutral. And I think being able to do a kangaroo leather power boot is fairly innovative considering how nearly every other brand seems to have conceded defeat and ditched either power boots or K-leather power boots (not being totally serious here).




tl:dr -
1) weight isn't everything. other factors matter.
2) Mizuno's focus isn't on light/leather/innovation.

 

Thanks for comments. Few responses:

i don't believe i said that

No, I didn't say that I believe in sutch thing. They could. So what?

no, I know that it's specific for football.

And what You nee to understand is what I am writing. I didn't wrote most of the things that you assume me to pass along with my words. YES weight has its limits. Didn't say that it hasn't. Sure, durability, all these things - you are wright. But I haven;t say otherwise.

The case was - you can't call yourself a light boot manufacturer if you have nothing to compete with in this segment. That's all. You're making a big argue about something that doesn't exist. Is the light approach good or bad, how it affects the performance, whet is my opinion on market;s marketing trends - none of these things were mentioned. So calm down and stop wasting by time.

 

Again--I think your way of thinking is unrealistic. You want innovation......but I don't think you have any real experience in what it takes to 'innovate'. You think it's as easy as companies just doing all kinds of crazy shit for the sake of 'innovation' but that's not how things work nor is that how a company should be judged.

Again--it's clear you have a bias towards being against classic boots, and there's no right opinion.

I think that falls in line with your 'innovate' criticism. You feel in looking at what worked in the past and sticking wtih it is not thinking outside the box enough. Some would argue, sticking with what is known and only improving marginally on a for many, perfect product, is the smart way to go.

For you though, that's not enough. You want different matierals, ideas, sole plates, etc. And again--this is where I think you're being unrealistic. Too much change for the sake of innovation can kill a line of boots or leave behind ideas that will most likely be brought back to life later on.

They made the Basara to compete with the Mercurial line of synthetics. Many say they are comfortable...very light weight. How did it fail? Because it's not as popular as their other boots?

Again--what does 'innovate' mean to you? I still haven't received a response or read a post where you go into more detail on why you think Mizuno has failed in that aspect.

In my opinion, they are doing what they're known for. Keeping with 'classic' leather boots that can last because they don't skimp out on good glue, riveted studs in sole plate, and top notch stitching. My Mizuno Morelia ULs are 6+ years old and will probably continue to last longer as long as I take care of them.

Look at Nikes--they're made from cheap, synthetic material, assembled cheaply with no 'safeguard' like you see in more classic boots like Morelias which I outlined above. They're making boots to die on you in a year so yo ubuy another pair later! That's not innovation....it's something more sinister...

This is the part that bothers me. So innovate means light weight to you?

Before the Neo, no brands cared or thought to make a 'lightweight' speed boot that still felt comfortable like a classic 'Copa' or 'Morelia'.

How is that not innovative? The only boot I can think of is the K leather Vapor I which tore holes in people's heels and were uncomfortable as sin.

Mizuno is function over form in comfort, light weight, and 'feel'. Putting on a pair, you instantly know that you've never felt anything like it.

The way they're finding ways to keep shedding weight without compromising comfort or 'feel' is to me, the highest level of innovation.

 

Random thought: It's funny, and actually pretty wild how Mizuno has tied 'light weight' and 'comfort'. Something that's well....uncommon.

I remember being astonished at the 8oz Mercurial's that Ronaldo wore comared to my clunky but comfy as hell 11Oz Copas. I borrowed a pair from a friend, they were OK, not too bad, but nothing like my Copas.

Fast forward to 2009, when Mizuno released the Morelia ULs. They weighed in at 7.6 ozs. Essentially what 'speed' boots at that time were weighing!

I think of years and years of building cars with my friends to compete in racing. You always compromise comfort for weight = speed. You shed all of the things in a car that make it so comfortable like sound deadening, panels in side the car which kills the sound on the outside, comfy seats for stiff kevlar seats, airbags for a lightweight steering wheel, smaller, lighter wheels, power steering, etc.

All Luxuries go away in order to shed weight and have the lightest thing you can have to get the most power/weight ratio. Mizuno doesn't compromise in comfort....and that I think is for me, their biggest selling point.

 

Just my 2 cents here. When I was in Japan, I visited many stores and all big brands had their hyped up advertisements and tricked out displays on how their boots will make you a lethal player. For Mizuno it was very simple display with "Made In Japan" sign. That says it all for me. There is unmatched quality and craftsmanship that you will not find from other brands. I talked to few store managers and all said Mizuno top tier boots (MIJ) sell themselves and they really don't need to hype them up. Sometimes you don't touch a winning formula just for the sake of change and to make more money. There is a certain sexiness and beauty about a well crafted boot.
Cheers

 

Have to say I'm a big fan of Mizunos designs and much prefer them to some of the frankly awful colours and designs Nike and Adidas put out. Only thing that holds me back is the lack of an SG option on most silos. At the moment I can only get SG boots in models or colourways I'm not keen on so I'm holding out for some new colourways or the introduction of SG boots. Its a pity ProDirects selection is limited enough.

 

sigh. I'm gonna try this 1 last time before I'll agree to disagree.

I'm not making a big argument that doesn't exist, you're failing to look at a 'lightweight boot' from a more big picture view. You're being overly focused and myopic about the 'light' in 'light boot manufacturer'

my point is that beyond a certain degree of 'lightness' the weight becomes irrelevant. So as long as like you've agreed yourself, the Morelia Neo feels light in your hands - so its light enough to compete in this segment and they can compete in this segment. If they produced a 250g boot, or one that didn't feel light, and called it their lightweight boot then probably you'd have a point, I think the Basara deserves a mention here. but even then Basara was marketed as more of acceleration, not lightweight boot.

if it goes any lighter then it affects the 'boot' part of your 'lightweight boot' - that's when durability etc come in. You cannot, SHOULD NOT separate the 2 when talking about a light boot manufacturer.

But that's the beauty (not really) of the market, there are always consumers like yourself who value a marketing gimmick of being the lightest boot while sacrificing other things like durability, while there are others like myself (and possibly most of us in this thread) who want a boot that is light (I really don't think its possible to feel a 50g difference) but still feels supremely comfortable and durable. That's fair.

What isn't is you commenting that a brand can't call themselves a light boot manufacturer by focusing on 1 aspect (which even then you've acknowledged they feel light in your hands)


=)

Cheers,
Jay



P.s: the other stuff like marketing trends etc was a direct response to one of your responses to someone else, so fair enough if you choose not to respond to that. I think many others have already directly replied to your attack on Mizuno lacking innovation and stagnating so I'm not going to flog that dead horse.

 

In terms of marketing and hitting the younger market, Mizuno isn't that great. I can only assume their spending their money on the products their customers crave. I remember reading that when Tiger Woods was sponsored by Nike, he really used Mizuno irons. If you actually look, the company itself dominates in a lot of sports. Running shoes, Mizuno is considered top 3, volleyball, in baseball their stuff is considered premium. One thing I've learned over the years is that the Japanese are sticklers for quality, not just in soccer / football products, just everything in life. I specifically look to see what the Japanese players wear over what the European players wear. When I watch the J-League, I see a lot of Mizuno, Asics and Japan specific boots from some of the 'bigger' brands.

 

Whoof! One heck of a read.

I appreciate you giving us backup to your opinions, it's easier for me to know where you stand.

I wasn't as clear about my job as I should have been. I am the footwear manager and buy for the company I work for. I haven't seen the evoTouch in person yet (although they showed us pictures of all the new lines around 4 months ago). but I have seen the next Vapor. It hasn't really changed. I see product before you know about it. I have non-disclosure agreements because of my job so I don't tend to talk about product that hasn't released yet.

I wore Vapors for 4 odd years then I went to the Lotto Zhero Gravitys when they first came out, then I got my first pair of Mizunos and from then on nothing can really compare for me. Because of my job I normally get several pairs of boots per year to play in and if not I at least try everything on and get some touches in and still nothing comes close to the satisfaction and comfort I get from wearing Mizuno. I deal with the marketing blitz from these companies constantly. It still doesn't make a difference to me and it's pretty easy to pick apart where companies decided to go cheap with their product. Even on shoes such as the superfly. I was a nike fanboy for years and years. Then I found something much better.

I do agree about the tongues on the Vapor, Phinish and Tiempo 6. They are crap. It's because they can't make a good last that fits so they had to compensate that with a tighter fit across the top of the foot.

Oh and a two year lifeline for a boot being to long...do you know what kind of personal hell it is for me to constantly have to order more and more product? A few years ago we had 10...TEN...colours of Vapors in one year, that's complete nonsense and hurts us, it hurts our sales, it hurts nike sales and it hurts the customer. In my view all boots should be on a minimum of a two year cycle. And less colours made too. If you worked in a soccer store for several years you would feel the same way. We have to order every damn colour nike makes because the customers demand it and it plays hell to our sales and we get burned and overstocked a lot. Why? Because nike lies to us. "Oh well Ronaldo will wear this colour for this amount of time. Then this colour, and after that will be his signature colour."

"Oh wait nevermind he will just wait 2 colours not 3. Shame you order so much of that third colour. Oh and by the way we are going to launch two colours on our nikesoccer app that you guys can't get." and guess which ones the customers buy?

nike's business model is to make as much product as possible to "drown" out there competitors and business is booming. Last year they had record sales (in soccer) and the highest individual share of sales comes from what they call direct-to-customer sales (sales through nikeid or the nikesoccer app). It had an 83% rise. That's sales I lose out on. Because nike wouldn't be honest with us. Now I will give them credit. They have finally started telling us what we won't get in advance so we can plan orders accordingly.

Now adidas also has exclusive shoes but most of the time we get them and if we don't, we get told at the time we place our orders and our rep will even tell us what to be careful of ordering so we don't hurt our business. They have been doing things this way for over 6 years. Why did it take nike so long to be honest?

As far as the Basara failing...what dictates failure in your book? For all purposes it seems like Mizuno was pretty happy with how the Basara did. They are not aiming to be number 1 in the business, they are aiming to stay true to themselves. You are right in saying they want to compete across the market but they do it in their own way. They innovate how they see fit. You don't think the Basara was innovative? I thought it fill the bill perfectly for what it was supposed to be. It was made to be a flexible speed boot that gave to more grip. You've said nothing about the Ignitus and you haven't said what you thought Mizuno did right before the last 5 years...

I think Mizuno are exactly where they want to be as a brand. Do they want more sales? Of course! But they also have consistently refused to sacrifice their "soul" to do so. They have shown us what their plans were for last year (focus on the 30th Anniversary of the Morelia) and this year which is built around "Japan Spirit" i.e. offering more MiJ product and their beliefs around what that product should be and what it should represent. They may not innovate to your liking but they know that their fans don't want crazy innovation just for the sake of innovation. It's reasonable and makes sense. That's what gets people into their brand. They don't put the cart before the horse so to speak. Why break what's not broken?

Most interestingly guess which brand I constantly get asked for at work? Mizuno. All. The. Time. And holy sh*t I would sell a ton if it was offered to the company. If there's one thing I would like to see change it would be for Mizuno to open up in the US market more. But they are taking a slow and steady pace. They won't over-exert themselves like Pele Sports or Concave did. Did those guys innovate enough for you? See how they busted spectacularly? So how quickly they went bankrupt?

You don't innovate for innovations sake.

There's lessons to be learned in this industry from not rushing stuff. Not every brand is going to try and explode out with innovation. Look at Under Armour. They constantly advertise and market and always come up with new product. And yet we sell 3 TIMES MORE Asics cleats than UA. Why? Because of comfort, quality and fit matter the most at the end of the day. And Asics doesn't even advertise that they make soccer cleats. They are just there.

I guarantee that people are hypnotized by the swoosh and will buy whatever shoe has a swoosh on it. They made soccer cleats like Jordans and that's why they are in front. Not because the product is good. Not because it's better than other stuff. They are not first in the marketplace because they make great product. It's purely because they are a marketing powerhouse and they know what ever they come up with all they have to do is make a commercial about it, hype it up like crazy and convince everyone that it's the next shiny thing they need.

End of story.

 

Sorry for the double post. But I think it's absolutely hilarious how hard of a time nike is having in selling the obra, superfly and phantom in the Japanese market. They just sit there for the most part. It took SS Kamo AGES to get rid of the original colourways. And many other companies there can't clear their stock and yet, the new Ingitus MiJ sold out at several places before it even released...

Of course Japanese and (and Korean) customers are far more discerning about product than us in the West.

Still interesting indeed...

 

if anyone at mizuno watching this thread. they're gonna love it.

 

It does seem that the interpretation of innovation is what's causing the problem here.

I work in construction and you get similar things in this industry, people see some fancy shaped office building go up in their City with an intricate shape and sparkly cladding and it has the wow factor about it, people assume it must be some really cutting edge innovative project. In reality it's likely to be the same steel framed construction of most offices just that used some fancy shapes and materials to give it an fancy appearance.

There's a company we lose a lot of work to in the industrial sector, they've only been up and running for about 15 years but already turn over about £600m through mainly boring industrial/distribution units, your basic concrete slab with a big empty metal box on it. Nothing seems innovative there but the way they work is what sets them apart, the devil is in the detail for them as they do certain activities in what seems to be a of bit backwards order, they combine some elements into different trades to normal but it's in the quest of efficiency. Every little details is drilled down to be as straight forward as can be, they standardise those details on pretty much every job they do and as a result they work quicker and cheaper than pretty much all their competitors, hence why they're dominating that market.

That's the why I see Mizuno working, their products may not seem that fancy at first glance but you know they've honed the design, the techniques and the processes involved so they've produced the very best thing they can. Shame that not everyone puts in the thought or has the understanding to appreciate it that way.

 

Bump - I chose the wrong time to ask this question

Anyone know the answer to this? If I buy the AMO or Pro-direct studs from prodirect soccer will they fit?

Cheers

 

great point!

alot of the time the so called innovations are actually just cosmetic and the boots themselves are actually a retrograde step in terms of molding to your feet, protection, and durability.

 

so far, i hv not use other studs on my SI, i do recalled that i used mizuno studs on a pair of puma king mix, fit perfectly well

if not mistaken, most drew-in studs boots - adidas world cup, puma king, umbro speciali shud be having the same studs screw size and/or the T-nuts size

in fact i had ordered T-nuts from ebay uk that i worked on my SI:




hvg 4-studs at the heel gives me even better support n stability, just luv it on a very wet, soft n slippery pitch

 

cool - thanks for the reply! I'll prob just order some from PDS.

oh and erm.... really don't want to be rude but how do you explain this?
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/posts/22529726/

 

Completed my place move... and was out of here for a week...
What a conversation! A lot of opinions... glad to see the high level

I'm in again, guys!

 

Welcome back, Serginho!