So how terrible was BB then? Talent's the same, worse record, LD in his prime. JK: 73 games, 41 wins, 14 draws, 18 losses. BB: 80 games, 43 wins, 12 draws, 25 losses.
OK, so, you're wondering if we have fewer players in top leagues. We have fewer. Especially since MLS began buying up prime-age American talent. Are we performing worse at the youth levels? No, we're probably about the same. Had a pretty nice U-20 WC, but on the other hand haven't outdone LD's class, and we failed to qualify for London. We "have a lot more NT caliber players", but "the top end talent isn't improving yet". So, doesn't that mean that our talent level has gone down?
Really? Prime age LD, prime age Dempsey, prime age Cherundolo. Davies for a bit, Gooch bossing at CB. MLS is better, but we had more big names, especially ones playing overseas, than we do now.
Ah, thats more clear. I understand now. I think we've sent less players to Europe in recent years. I think that has to do with NT regulars like Besler, Gonzalez and Zusi staying in MLS to take DP contracts over finding their way to a relegation side in a top league. Maybe some of it also has to do with the stricter rules being put on foreign players in some leagues. A case where we saw that in effect would be the Agudelo one. I still don't think we have less players in top leagues. Maybe less produced in the USA, but probably not total numbers of players. Many years ago we didn't have players like Johnson, Johannsson, Chandler, Brooks, etc. playing for our National Team. A player like Johnson is one of the best players that we've had play for our NT, yet he's not seen in the same way that Donovan, Dempsey, Bradley are because of the role he plays for the NT. These dual-nationals have really helped us out. About the last quote I made that you referenced, I think we have more depth. I don't think we have more players of Donovan's caliber or better on the NT now than we did many years ago, but I think there are more players capable of doing a good job against high level competition. We've probably gone from 10-15 deep in quality players to 25-30 deep in quality players. I think a lot of that has to do with better and more consistent development of our youth players. The one's that are turning into good players aren't just the crazy naturally talented players from their early years like a Donovan or Onyewu that can stand out and not stagnate amongst a bad developmental program and bad coaching.
How bout Desevio Payne at Groningen? He's already got experience in 1st team games, and he'll likely either compete or get a starting role this year (if I remember right).
We're not producing the top end talent. We have more depth, which helps to mitigate this problem, but I think that top end talent is more important than depth. Therefore, I think the pool is weaker. I'm not saying that we need a Messi in order to compete, but aside from Dempsey, we don't have an attacking player that's even close to being as good as LD was for so many years. Hell, I'd be okay with 2 players that could be as influential as LD, but I don't think we even have that. Particularly in the attack, we're really suffering.
Apparently it has become much easier to believe that the rest of Concacaf have some how caught up in a couple of years time and our player development is suddenly crap.
Decade? Make a starting XI out of this roster from 20 years ago: D.O.B. CLUB WC 1 GK Tony Meola 21 Feb 1969 (no club) 1990 2 DF Mike Lapper 28 Aug 1970 (no club) 3 MD Mike Burns 14 Sep 1970 (no club) 4 DF Cle Kooiman 04 Jul 1963 Cruz Azul (MEX) 5 DF Thomas Dooley 12 May 1961 (no club) 6 MD John Harkes 08 Mar 1967 Derby County (ENG) 1990 7 MD Hugo Perez 08 Nov 1963 (no club) 8 FW Earnie Stewart 28 Mar 1969 Willem II (NED) 9 MD Tab Ramos 21 Sep 1966 Real Betis (SPA) 1990 10 MD Roy Wegerle 19 Mar 1964 Coventry City (ENG) 11 FW Eric Wynalda 09 Jun 1969 FC Saarbrücken (GER) 1990 12 GK Jürgen Sommer 27 Feb 1969 Luton Town (ENG) 13 MD Cobi Jones 16 Jun 1970 (no club) 14 FW Frank Klopas 01 Sep 1966 (no club) 15 FW Joe-Max Moore 23 Feb 1971 (no club) 16 MD Mike Sorber 14 May 1971 (no club) 17 DF Marcelo Balboa 08 Aug 1967 (no club) 1990 18 GK Brad Friedel 18 May 1971 (no club) 19 MD Claudio Reyna 20 Jul 1973 (no club) 20 MD Paul Caligiuri 09 Mar 1964 (no club) 1990 21 DF Fernando Clavijo 23 Jan 1957 (no club) 22 DF Alexi Lalas 01 Jun 1970 (no club) Coach: Bora Milutinovic (YUG) 07 Sep 1944
Having top-end talent doesn't just help you compete against the best teams. It helps you get wins against lesser teams, which is especially important when the team isn't playing well.
I think this has a lot to do with that age group of players that are around 24-29 being generally much weaker than the age group directly older than them and the age group directly younger than them. I'd consider the age group directly older and directly younger to be about average with what we've been seeing for the last 10-15 years. The players around age 24-29 just haven't produced those top end talents. Maybe it has a lot to do with a lot of busts in that age group. Freddy Adu was a huge bust. Brek Shea was a bust. Jozy was a bust, relatively speaking. Bradley was not, but besides him, those top star talents in that age bracket just isn't there in our player pool. Maybe there is some merit to our talent not being as good. Now that I think of it, having a whole generation of players being so poor in top end quality, especially the generation that is supposed to be in their prime years probably does make the player pool worse. I still wouldn't say its a big problem with our player production in the United States. Its not a larger issue that is being ignored. Its more just a poor generation of players, which happens for every NT. Maybe the failed qualification for the Olympics was a sign of things to come.
And let's be clear, none of this excuses the performance at the Gold Cup. We still shouldn't lose to Jamaica and Panama. That's still on JK. I'm just trying to say that it's not like he's leaving world-beaters off of his squad. We just don't have many top-tier players at this moment, especially in the attacking third.
I think this is kind of a false dichotomy, as you present it. You don't replace guys like Donovan and Dempsey like for like; you rebuild the entire team on the fly around the strengths of your current group of best players, as Italy (for example) and Mexico (not taken entirely at random!) have done so often over the decades. And as Bruce did in the course of 10 months back in 1998-1999, even as 4 of our five greatest-ever players (at the time) - Ramos, Dooley, Balboa, Wynalda - aged out. So I disagree with the way you've framed it. This team shouldn't be built to "replace Donovan;" it have been built around the obvious broad-spectrum strengths of a midfield trio comprising Bradley, Feilhaber and McCarty. There can be no legitimate qualms regarding the abilities of two of those three to compete at the top level, and as for the third... if you can take a risk on Kyle Beckerman, why not another, more gifted player? Let's add Bedoya for a fourth if Jurgen really wants to do the diamond. And suddenly we're no longer defined as a "counterattacking team," we're defined as a smart and technical team that has multiple guys capable of unlocking a defense, and starts four midfielders who will run themselves into the ground closing lanes and winning balls. That group - two of whom he's exiled, and two of whom he's consistently played out of position - should have been the core of the 2014 cycle, and taken us at least to this coming Hexagonal. We had no individual as talented as Ramos back when Bruce took over - Landon was still 2 years away - but he had the program turned around within months. We stomped Germany twice in '99, finished 3rd in the Confeds Cup, and slugged our way through some pretty ugly qualifiers even with Reyna & O'Brien mostly hurt, and only one reliable forward. Anyway, I'm not saying I want Bruce back (I'd take Vermes, Verbeek, or maybe even Pareja first; Kreis gives me the willies b/c he's maybe not pragmatic enough for int'l soccer), but replacing Donovan & Dempsey is not some unsolveable problem.
Even if our top-end talent is not that good for the generation that is supposed to be in their prime, I think the improved depth balances it all out. You might not have Landon Donovan in his prime anymore, Tim Howard in his prime anymore, Clint Dempsey in his prime anymore, but over the course of a cycle and even a tournament, the depth should make a huge difference in the same way that a star player makes a difference. I think what we are seeing is a coach not using the depth to his advantage, instead thinking his perceived star players (Bradley, Altidore) are better than they actually are.
With regards to players around 25 - that would be those who were 21 when Klinsmann took over, right? Whenever I tried to push somebody that age forward I was always told that they had to mature, they would get their chance, they had to prove themselves, etc. The exception was anybody dual-national. Everybody bet the ranch on the dual nationals as if we had that kind of luxury. Uh-uh. The search for a Dono replacement needed to be addressed day 1 of Klinsi's tenure and he was so opposed to calling anybody but dual Nats that he invented a new rule: everybody is a 10. There were not any dual Nat forwards who could play wide so he invented yet another rule: the width comes from the fullbacks.
At least in England, our national team players seem to have a harder time getting work permits because we rotate our national team squad so much more today. Not many players appear in 75% of our competitive internationals these days. Instead of a regular group of 18-20 players who appear in the matchday 18 all the time, we have a lot more players in our national team pool, most of whom play in about half of the games.
I mostly agree. He's not dealing with the same NT that Bob was dealing with. The point I am trying to make is that I think we could be as good as the teams that had Donovan or Dempsey in the prime, but I don't think thats going to be accomplished with expecting his perceived star players to carry the team. I think that can be achieved with a more team oriented rather than star player approach. It might not deliver moments of brilliance the way Donovan or Dempsey could in their prime, but I think it'll allow us to have better sub options off the bench, not be as hurt by injuries or suspensions and not have to rely so much on individual players to do everything. It's a different way to approach things, but it's equally as effective.
That's an interesting observation. I agree at least partially about the problems managing the depth. I think JK's been very good finding players in Europe to bolster our depth, but he hasn't managed the MLS pool all that well, especially with regards to attacking players (e.g call up Kamara, Finley, Feilhaber instead of Corona, Gordon, or Wondo). I think this is what most club and International managers do. They pick a group of players and build the team around them. I think what we're seeing is that maybe it's a mistake to build around MB and Altidore/ It's certainly not like building around CR7, Neymar, or Messi. And unfortunately, we don't have many players who come close to those two in terms of quality, so it's not like it's easy to build around another set of players. So, it'll be interesting to watch what JK does now. I hope he decides to just get a team of players who play well together, and not focus so much on the perceived ceilings of each player.
The U-20 World Cup team in 2007 was supposed to be our golden generation and it was mostly busts. Robbie Rogers looked like he might be a big star and he was tremendous early on in MLS then fell off. Bradley has been great, Jozy has been so-so. Danny Szetela, Sal Zizzo, Chris Seitz, and others had impressive performances and have done nothing. Just look at who we beat in the R16 that year - Uruguay with Cavani and Suarez! And the best player we got out of the tournament was Bradley.
I think you're right. On the other hand, I'd rather our players start off in Europe at lower leagues like the Eredivisie or Bundesliga 2 anyway. If they're any good, they'll only need a year, otherwise at least they're more likely to get playing time instead of languishing on youth teams/on the bench (a la Lletget).
When you say our top end talent isn't improving, that implies we have another prime Landon/Clint, and we haven't improved beyond that level. And we also have a present version of Chero, Boca, DMB, in their primes. I look around and ask who exactly are you taking as the current versions of those players? If we don't have 'em, the correct description is our top end talent has gotten worse.
I also think that eventually things are going to really turn around, and our NT is not only going to have star players again, but we should maintain that depth. I don't know exactly who's going to be a star player, but we have so many players with that type of talent. Just going by the percentages, at least one or two should pan out. A few star players with improved depth that we already have should lead to improvements from our NT.